SWR: RMT ballot over role of guards *48 hour strike 8th/9th November*

[HarleyDavidson]

HarleyDavidson - I’m not going to worry too much about your comment regarding what I know and what I don’t know (It may surprise you). Yes I stated things in black and white from the rule book (it’s an open forum after all) but it was to highlight a point about certain rules being stretched when the RMT is fighting a case on safety - and arguably the rule book and the rules contained make the railway safe. It could be argued that may be it’s safer to clear the line using whatever means available to avoid trains building up but this isn’t exactly the argument RMT should be using as to why a Guard is so important as stretching the rules could have been achieved by an OBS!

The Guards on SWR now more than ever before need to be visible to get the public on their side - that means frequent train walks, providing clear information when a train is delayed and making sure they are actually on the platform when dispatching a train (i.e.following the rule book) and yes I’m talking about the suburban network even though the stations are very close together as that’s where Domh245 has pointed out the future changes may occur.

RMT needs to seriously up their game on they way they are handling this issue on all TOCs. RMT stickers littering the train windows isn’t the way forward and does not come across as professional.

Midmat - I’m waiting very much to see what SWR are capable of delivering on the strike days and I guess a timetable may be out in a week or so (unless anyone else has more information).

Time to "show your cards" then?

 

[pompeyfan]

I can’t see OBS’s having any sort of training in the respect of the railway. From what I understand OBS aren’t safety critical and aren’t subject to the same medical checks as a guard. On paper station dispatchers would actually be more suitable in the above situation than what is being sold as an OBS.

I know some OBS actually post on here and I mean to show them the upmost respect, but because the role is so wishy washy there’s no guidance on the actual specifics of the role.

 

[LowLevel]

Does depend on the company and the time I guess, I as a guard have been trained on propelling movements and assistance protection. In fact I carried out assistance protection for my driver a few years ago.

We are also trained on both assistance and emergency protection and propelling movements. Those who sign them also get trained on splitting and coupling HST sets. A propelling move is no different to controlling a shunt with hand signals which happens on occasion, just using buzzer codes instead or if the worst comes to the worst hanging out the window - strictly to clear the line in case of cab equipment failure. I can't say I even use hand signals often as a guard though - my stock is all buzzer fitted. The last time I did was to move my train down the platform so I could fit a wheelchair ramp clear of a canopy support.

 

[Suraggu]

I am sorry but non Commercial Guards at SWR do not help themselves. They regularly turn up late to their trains and in turn get a TIN, They are barely seen on my travels on the suburban network, just sat in the cab. If they really want to make their jobs secure for the future they need to start being more pro active. No job is safe in the railway anymore.

 

[387star]

Will it be a skeleton service only ? I don't recall south west trains having a guard strike at all in two decades but with all trains having a guard surely the effect will be similar to that of a driver's strike? Many services cut I'd have thought with perhaps all efforts concentrated on the core Guildford and Basingstoke yo Waterloo section

 

[TEW]

I am sorry but non Commercial Guards at SWR do not help themselves. They regularly turn up late to their trains and in turn get a TIN,

Any guard who 'regularly' turned up late to train would soon find themselves in hot water. At best your claim is a complete exaggeration.

 

[Suraggu]

Any guard who 'regularly' turned up late to train would soon find themselves in hot water. At best your claim is a complete exaggeration.

Certainly not an exaggeration in the slightest. But cannot go into details on a public forum or I will find myself receiving a P45. You will be surprised how many late starts are created by waiting Guard per day.

 

[TEW]

Certainly not an exaggeration in the slightest. But cannot go into details on a public forum or I will find myself receiving a P45. You will be surprised how many late starts are created by waiting Guard per day.

Just because the train is waiting a guard, doesn't mean the guard is late to train.

 

[Suraggu]

Just because the train is waiting a guard, doesn't mean the guard is late to train.

Factors like late inbound trains or late on PNB are taken into account. Guards late to train is a regular occurrence and does not help their cause in this industrial action.

 

[TEW]

Factors like late inbound trains or late on PNB are taken into account. Guards late to train is a regular occurrence and does not help their cause in this industrial action.

If it really was a problem on the scale you are suggesting, is it not something that would have been tackled already?

 

[Suraggu]

If it really was a problem on the scale you are suggesting, is it not something that would have been tackled already?

It has been attempted many times, but it still hangs back to the former days of the alliance to be perfectly honest, SWR are certainly a different breed from the previous lot and it is slowly being tackled.

 

[TEW]

It has been attempted many times, but it still hangs back to the former days of the alliance to be perfectly honest, SWR are certainly a different breed from the previous lot and it is slowly being tackled.

Well it's the first I've heard of it being a major issue, which I find a little strange to say the least.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know some OBS actually post on here and I mean to show them the upmost respect, but because the role is so wishy washy there’s no guidance on the actual specifics of the role.

That's because there basically don't appear to *be* any specifics of the role. The ones on Southern appear to be specialists in wandering around looking lost and forlorn due to not really actually having anything to do, you can almost see it in their faces that they wish they could do the doors to break the monotony a bit. I will bet 5p to anyone that cares that at the next franchise change they will be made redundant and that will be that.

 

[313103]

Certainly not an exaggeration in the slightest. But cannot go into details on a public forum or I will find myself receiving a P45. You will be surprised how many late starts are created by waiting Guard per day.

Well the only way you would be privy to that information is if you work in control for SWR or have the ability to read their control logs. Otherwise you would not be under threat of receiving a P45 and if you was i am sure that your union will assist you in keeping your job.

I think we need to be careful about the claims you are making, some could say those in control don't make the best of decisions, and i hope this is taken into consideration when a guard is late to a train.

 

[Suraggu]

Well the only way you would be privy to that information is if you work in control for SWR or have the ability to read their control logs. Otherwise you would not be under threat of receiving a P45 and if you was i am sure that your union will assist you in keeping your job.

I think we need to be careful about the claims you are making, some could say those in control don't make the best of decisions, and i hope this is taken into consideration when a guard is late to a train.

People do state Control don't make the best decisions. It seems from the outside looking in a bit of us and them culture. But that was only made worse when the Alliance came in.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Certainly not an exaggeration in the slightest. But cannot go into details on a public forum or I will find myself receiving a P45. You will be surprised how many late starts are created by waiting Guard per day.

Are you purporting that some make their trains late away, so that they have to be "taken off" their last bit of duty so they can have an early day? If so that's being a bit contentious and heading towards dodgy ground.

 

[Suraggu]

Are you purporting that some make their trains late away, so that they have to be "taken off" their last bit of duty so they can have an early day? If so that's being a bit contentious and heading towards dodgy ground.

It seems you have taken what I said and thought perhaps that is what they are insinuating?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Well for legal reasons I would suggest that we leave those sort of thoughts elsewhere.

 

[Suraggu]

Well for legal reasons I would suggest that we leave those sort of thoughts elsewhere.

Agreed. But mind you those sort of thoughts never came into the mind. Who would do that sort of thing anyway, positively bonkers.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Let's just not go there, before someone gets into the brown stuff!

 

[Suraggu]

Let's just not go there, before someone gets into the brown stuff!

 

[bb21]

I am sorry but non Commercial Guards at SWR do not help themselves. They regularly turn up late to their trains and in turn get a TIN, They are barely seen on my travels on the suburban network, just sat in the cab. If they really want to make their jobs secure for the future they need to start being more pro active. No job is safe in the railway anymore.

I'm sorry but I cannot allow this claim to go unchallenged as that would be irresponsible of me at a sensitive time like now.

I am interested in the authority of your source of information on this matter, and what your definition of "regular" is, as I am unable to validate the claim you made here.

Of course these incidents happen, but not anywhere near what I would term "regular" occurrences overall, so I do wonder whether the issue lies in our respective impression of what "regular" constitutes.

 

[Malcolmffc]

They talk about wanting to keep two members of staff on the train, and also talk about how they haven't yet decided how to operate the new fleet. But then later on say "we would like to be able to operate the new metro trains with one person on board in the rare event the second person is unavailable at short notice and the train is otherwise able to get customers to their destinations" which can only be read as having DOO with non safety-critical 2nd members of staff.

Which sounds ideal for both passengers and staff. What’s the problem?

 

[pompeyfan]

The problem is that the company have been intentionally limited in their information with a lot of words but not a lot of information.

Had they said from day dot ‘we want to run our metro fleet as DOO, but with a 2nd crew member rostered on every train’ then they perhaps might have had a bit more respect from staff, in fact, they’ve hid behind words and double meanings. Of course the above would still have put them in disagreement with the RMT, but at least FMTR would have been able to say they were honest.

 

[pompeyfan]

The problem is that the company have been intentionally limited in their information with a lot of words but not a lot of information.

Had they said from day dot ‘we want to run our metro fleet as DOO, but with a 2nd crew member rostered on every train’ then they perhaps might have had a bit more respect from staff, in fact, they’ve hid behind words and double meanings. Of course the above would still have put them in disagreement with the RMT, but at least FMTR would have been able to say they were honest.

 

[Domh245]

Which sounds ideal for both passengers and staff. What’s the problem?

If they can run with one person on board "in the rare event the second person is unavailable", then they can be run with one person on board at all times. If they can do that, then at some point, you can guarantee that a bean counter somewhere will ask "why are we employing all these people who we don't need to employ?" and then suddenly, you have entirely single crewed trains.

 

[Goldfish62]

The problem is that the company have been intentionally limited in their information with a lot of words but not a lot of information.

Had they said from day dot ‘we want to run our metro fleet as DOO, but with a 2nd crew member rostered on every train’ then they perhaps might have had a bit more respect from staff, in fact, they’ve hid behind words and double meanings. Of course the above would still have put them in disagreement with the RMT, but at least FMTR would have been able to say they were honest.

Agreed. They have engendered deep distrust before they have even tabled firm proposals. It either smacks of gross industrial relations incompetence or deliberately spoiling for a fight.

 

[CN75]

An OBS isn’t classed as a competent person in any way.
1u

I can’t see OBS’s having any sort of training in the respect of the railway. From what I understand OBS aren’t safety critical and aren’t subject to the same medical checks as a guard. On paper station dispatchers would actually be more suitable in the above situation than what is being sold as an OBS.

I know some OBS actually post on here and I mean to show them the upmost respect, but because the role is so wishy washy there’s no guidance on the actual specifics of the role.

I think the current ASLEF proposal would make the OBS safety critical looking at what has been leaked. But the misconception is safety critical would make them essential for a train to run, which obviously isn’t the case. That’s nothing new either, because ASLEF already had policy agreed with the management that trains could go without safety critical guards for a few years on Southern. The OBS job nowadays is probably wish washy because the RMT haven’t recognised it exists yet as far I can see. In fact they haven’t gone back to a vote with their members at Southern since April 2016 according to their website. That’s probably because if they did they would have to stop sending them out for strikes like lemmings forever in support of the national agenda when they’ve lost any impact at Southern. Surely a lot of the Southern members would prefer the RMT started negotiating and improving the OBS job now and stopped striking?

Guards being late to train and all the other performance issues represents a massive cost in time and money. Some of it is unavoidable, but a rule that you don’t have to wait for them would obviously make the trains more reliable because the risk of something delaying them halves. That saves millions of pounds over a year, which is presumably SWR’s target. The problem for the RMT is it means an end to their power to stop the service, plus the guards reckon they will be toast in the long run even though SWR has said they are hiring even more guards.

Anyway, the RMT are about to kick off with strikes and blunt the only weapon in their resources at SWR, just like has happened everywhere else. Irrelevance and fatigue follows on soon after. This latest strike is clearly for the GA issue with their PUGs and for the Southern ASLEF referendum. Throwing SWR guards in at this stage is daft negotiating as it will just give management a chance to test their strike plans and start grinding down public support.

 

[CN75]

Agreed. They have engendered deep distrust before they have even tabled firm proposals. It either smacks of gross industrial relations incompetence or deliberately spoiling for a fight.

Or to conclude it another way, they clearly aren’t scared of a strike. That clearly says the DFT are covering the cost. Therefore the only losers really are the guards. In fact RMT walking straight into this trap is gross industrial relations incompetence, possibly?

 

[emil]

I read that only GTR Southern had protection for strikes as they only have to pay from revenue to the DFT. I don't think any other TOC has this protection.