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SWR: RMT ballot over role of guards *48 hour strike 8th/9th November*

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HarleyDavidson

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I had it quite a few years ago, where we were put in 6/7, stopped, guard opened doors, guard closed doors, ding ding and off we went.

As we went out towards the Wooden bridge and off to Woking, siggy called me on the radio and asked chuckling away "Don't you like Guildford passengers?", "Why I asked", he said "You left the sods on platform 6" came the reply and they're going mad.

At which point I just laughed my head off, we were too far out to return.

What had happened was the guard had opened the doors on platform 7 side, not realised it and just thought it was very quiet and didn't think anything of it and did his station duties and we cleared off.

Poor old guard got a right roasting when he got back though.
 
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[.n]

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You'd rather have your train cancelled than have it run with an OBS? Fair enough, but I'd be amazed if you weren't in a truly tiny minority. To be honest, I'd be very surprised if a large majority didn't favour running the train without any sort of second person on board, if the alternative is cancellation. (I'm assuming here that we're talking about a DOO train, of course, as there's not much benefit in having a train where nobody can close the doors).

Yes I would - on a near 3 hour journey, I wanted want someone who actually knew what they were doing for all the things that can and do go wrong on a frequent basis, that someone is just an OBS is not equipped to handle.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes I would - on a near 3 hour journey, I wanted want someone who actually knew what they were doing for all the things that can and do go wrong on a frequent basis, that someone is just an OBS is not equipped to handle.

All those things that seem to be coped with on, say, Southern and Thameslink?
 

[.n]

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All those things that seem to be coped with on, say, Southern and Thameslink?

Haha, you are seriously using that as a rebuttal to my statement - the very same GTR that that can't run an actual train service!

So go on then - tell me all the safety critical things that an OBS would have been able to help with that happen a very frequent basis on the SWML.

I'm not a member of TOC staff, I'm just a commuter, but I am basing this on years of observation and travel on various TOCs.
 

Bookd

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Yes I would - on a near 3 hour journey, I wanted want someone who actually knew what they were doing for all the things that can and do go wrong on a frequent basis, that someone is just an OBS is not equipped to handle.
As a member of this forum you will know of potential problems and I can understand your concerns. I suggest that the vast majority of passengers do not; if asked they will say that they would rather have a guard on board, but on a daily basis if the train turns up and they make their journey they would neither know nor care.
 

Robertj21a

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Yes I would - on a near 3 hour journey, I wanted want someone who actually knew what they were doing for all the things that can and do go wrong on a frequent basis, that someone is just an OBS is not equipped to handle.

I doubt if many passengers have any idea as to whether or not there's a guard, OBS, or anybody at all on board.
 

Matt Taylor

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If the passengers don't know whether a second member of staff is on board than may I suggest that the second member of staff (whatever their job title) is not doing a very good job.
 

Robertj21a

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If the passengers don't know whether a second member of staff is on board than may I suggest that the second member of staff (whatever their job title) is not doing a very good job.

It's also highly likely that the passenger is used to being on a DOO service.
 

[.n]

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As a member of this forum you will know of potential problems and I can understand your concerns. I suggest that the vast majority of passengers do not; if asked they will say that they would rather have a guard on board, but on a daily basis if the train turns up and they make their journey they would neither know nor care.

Its being someone who travels on a daily basis that forms my opinion, not my forum membership. And yes people on my journey would care!
 

[.n]

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I doubt if many passengers have any idea as to whether or not there's a guard, OBS, or anybody at all on board.

I can't help thinking that you don't travel on a long distance route, there are big differences compared to a short distance metro route
 

Robertj21a

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I can't help thinking that you don't travel on a long distance route, there are big differences compared to a short distance metro route

Have you been on a Bedford - Brighton train ? - hardly a short distance metro.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Have you been on a Bedford - Brighton train ? - hardly a short distance metro.

How many do the full trip though. Most journeys on TL are (apart from peak flows) probably just a few station stops to the larger towns like Luton or Bedford. It would be interesting to see if someone can provide accurate statistics for the route about the amount of full length journeys and short hops.

TL is also one of the routes where they've had a mass self evacuation, albeit some time ago now. But how do you expect one individual to deal with 1000+ who've got it into their little skulls that "I've had enough, I'm walking"?

You really haven't got a clue have you.
 

Bromley boy

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How many do the full trip though. Most journeys on TL are (apart from peak flows) probably just a few station stops to the larger towns like Luton or Bedford. It would be interesting to see if someone can provide accurate statistics for the route about the amount of full length journeys and short hops.

.

The below is pretty illustrative - I’m not sure where he got his figures from but he generally knows his onions.

That is simply not the case. Yes there are some journeys over an hour, and there will be more of them when the Thameslink 2018 timetable is in full swing, but the average is not 50 minutes, far from over it.

Firstly a challenge. More than a quarter of current users are just in the core, and from 2018 that is likely to be a third or more. Why are these not representative? Indeed what is representative?

Starting with the Midland Mainline. The Thameslink stations north of St Pancras have around 40 million passengers a year. About 2 million of them use EMT from Bedford and the Lutons. Of the 38m left, 60% use stations from St Albans southwards. Most are going towards the core (with a notable flow to West Hampstead) and very, very few beyond (less than 1%). With a handful of station pair exceptions, all the London flows are less than 25 minutes, some are much less. The 10-20% that aren't going to London are usually making short trips - eg there are large flows from Elstree / Radlett / Harpenden to St Albans for schools. The average for this lot, including the non London journeys, is less than 20 mins.

North of St Albans, journey times are of course (mostly) above 25 minutes to London, but there's not as many of them, and times do vary. The faster TL trains to Bedford, which many Bedford commuters get if not on an EMT, are 50 minutes from St Pancras. Flitwick is 38 mins. Luton just under 30. And there's a lot of people doing Harpenden to St Pancras at, guess what, a little under 25 minutes. The average for this group, again including the non-London journeys, is a little more than 35 mins.

Taken together, then, the average for the north side of TL today is just over 25 minutes excluding the 'internal to core' passengers. Add them in and it's actually under 20.

On the south side it is more complicated for a number of reasons, not least the diversions away from London Bridge and the Southern routes serving many of the stations.

But, generally, the stations closer to London have much higher traffic than those further out. Post 2018 there will, for example, be an awful lot of people doing the hop Croydon to London Bridge on TL in 12-13 minutes. To take another example, Streatham has more than twice as many passengers as the entire Wimbledon loop (Wimbledon to Sutton exclusive). Even then a majority of people on the Wimbledon loop are actually only travelling to Sutton or Wimbledon (same goes for Haydons Rd to Wimbledon). Another one - Loughborough Jn (all Thameslink, mostly less than 10 mins to London) has as many passengers as Wivelsfield and Preston Park combined (shared with Southern, split directions). This all adds up to a lot of short journeys, which brings the average down.


Clearly, there are some journeys on TL that will be over an hour, indeed a very few will be over two. But they are (and will be) a small proportion of the total.

You can of course argue that the 700s are not designed for such journeys over an hour, and if I was feeling particularly benevolent I might agree with you, albeit in the same way that I might agree that a 450 isn't designed for a 2 hour trip from Portsmouth to Waterloo. However it would be very hard to argue that the 700s are not designed for journeys of up to 50-60 minutes, on routes where high capacity is paramount, and which accommodates 80%+ of all Thameslink journeys. That is what I think is representative.

Besides, it could be worse - you could commute from Richmond to Stratford, Amersham to Moorgate or Epping to Shepherd's Bush, all in rather less comfort than a 700.
 

Robertj21a

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How many do the full trip though. Most journeys on TL are (apart from peak flows) probably just a few station stops to the larger towns like Luton or Bedford. It would be interesting to see if someone can provide accurate statistics for the route about the amount of full length journeys and short hops.

TL is also one of the routes where they've had a mass self evacuation, albeit some time ago now. But how do you expect one individual to deal with 1000+ who've got it into their little skulls that "I've had enough, I'm walking"?

You really haven't got a clue have you.

Thanks for the insult, not sure what I did to deserve that. No idea why 'how many do the full trip' is particularly relevant - the point was that it's a long-ish trip, worked without a second person. My original comment was that many wouldn't know whether a guard/OBS was on board - a fact that still stands.
 

pompeyfan

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Thanks for the insult, not sure what I did to deserve that. No idea why 'how many do the full trip' is particularly relevant - the point was that it's a long-ish trip, worked without a second person. My original comment was that many wouldn't know whether a guard/OBS was on board - a fact that still stands.

A convential Guard would probably struggle to get through an 8 car, let alone 12 car in 20 minutes. The point that’s being made is that if you’re only on a train for 20/25 minutes then you’re much less likely to see anyone on the train unless it’s a 4 car, but they’re still there, doing their duties.
 

Carlisle

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I can't help thinking that you don't travel on a long distance route, there are big differences compared to a short distance metro route
However it’s the SWR metro routes (whose equivalents in the rest of London are almost entirely DOO anyway) that are currently being considered for OBS style operation not the longer distance routes due to stock being unsuitable without a number of probably fairly costly modifications
 
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HH

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However it’s the SWR metro routes (whose equivalents in the rest of London are almost entirely DOO anyway) that are currently being considered for OBS style operation not the longer distance routes due to stock being unsuitable without a number of probably fairly costly modifications
These also have commercial guards who issue and collect tickets. Covering that part of the role would cost additional money. Then there's the leisure market to think about on some routes. Essentially it's a completely different situation.
 

387star

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This will cause heavy disruption I'd have thought? Not a good start for a new TOC. I always rated SWT highly

if it ain't broke..
 

Goldfish62

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This will cause heavy disruption I'd have thought? Not a good start for a new TOC. I always rated SWT highly
It's not as if SWT didn't have any strikes, though. From memory of walking long distances and travelling on buses drafted in from all over the country they seemed quite frequent in the early days.

But yes, massive disruption. I'm booking my hotels before everyone gets the same idea..
 

Bookd

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I can't see what SWR can do to avoid this - the technology won't allow any role changes at present, and they have said that they aim to increase rather than reduce staff numbers. If they actually do make plans to which the union object then a strike might be appropriate.
As this forms part of RMT's evident political plan to organise a national rail strike if possible then we must accept ongoing strikes as an unavoidable fact of life.
The Union may not have noticed that passenger numbers have been falling for the first time in years - they might like to consider the history of industries when consistent industrial action cheesed off the customers to the extent that jobs were lost rather than gained.
 

TEW

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I can't see what SWR can do to avoid this -
They could guarantee a second safety critical member of staff on every train for the length of the franchise. The dispute would be over immediately if they did that.
 

Malcolmffc

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They could guarantee a second safety critical member of staff on every train for the length of the franchise. The dispute would be over immediately if they did that.

The unions could move with the times and stop using safety as an excuse for blocking progress.
 

TEW

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The unions could move with the times and stop using safety as an excuse for blocking progress.
Ah yes, because removing the guarantee of a second person on the train is 'progress'. Perhaps you should try travelling around the SWR network in a wheelchair for a month and then tell me that you think it is progress.
 

Goldfish62

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Safety First...Profits second or somewhere well down the list.
I think for this particular franchise it'll be "reducing losses" instead of "profit" given that the assumptions on passenger growth are already somewhat at variance from reality.
 
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