GWR Class 800

[mushroomchow]

I still stand by that it is not the GWML where the diesel engines will be "found out" on the IETs, but on the MML and, more pressingly, on the TPE franchise's northern routes, both of which have had their electrification shelved for CP6 at the very least and probably for the foreseeable, ironically thanks to the scandalous overspends on the GW project.

One year of potentially struggling to keep to a timetable in GWR's case is nothing compared to potentially relying primarily on the diesel engines for the unit's entire life cycle, and in the case of the EM franchise having to compete with existing stock in the 222s which boast superior acceleration to the HSTs they are currently being compared to.

There's a possibility that new and more powerful models may become available before the incoming EM franchisee places their bi-mode order, but I can't see the development being good enough for what is required for that route, not least with train frequency and linespeeds in many non-electrified locations increasing from 2019 and the risks associated with any timetable slippage becoming greater as a result.

 

[D1009]

Does anyone know when Swansea Maliphant will start as an operational depot? I take it that North Pole and Stoke Gifford will continue to be the only ones as regards the start of the January 2018 timetable.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I thought it was 250.5 tonnes for a 5 car 800? If it's 300 tonnes the diesels are doing better than we thought.

For working out fuel ranges I have been working on 260.3 tonnes empty and 286.4 tonnes loaded (including passengers, fuel, water, etc.) for a 5 car.

p.s. in reply to another earlier post, I'm afraid I can't get into the fine details of the various timing test runs - I do want to keep my job! I try and keep everyone informed as much as I can but there are some things I just can't get into.

 

[47802]

I still stand by that it is not the GWML where the diesel engines will be "found out" on the IETs, but on the MML and, more pressingly, on the TPE franchise's northern routes, both of which have had their electrification shelved for CP6 at the very least and probably for the foreseeable, ironically thanks to the scandalous overspends on the GW project.

One year of potentially struggling to keep to a timetable in GWR's case is nothing compared to potentially relying primarily on the diesel engines for the unit's entire life cycle, and in the case of the EM franchise having to compete with existing stock in the 222s which boast superior acceleration to the HSTs they are currently being compared to.

There's a possibility that new and more powerful models may become available before the incoming EM franchisee places their bi-mode order, but I can't see the development being good enough for what is required for that route, not least with train frequency and linespeeds in many non-electrified locations increasing from 2019 and the risks associated with any timetable slippage becoming greater as a result.

Well AT300's haven't been bought for the MML yet and may not be who knows? and if they are the MML version may be a different spec to even First Groups 802's.
TPE 802 well not part of IET Dft contract, may be set for full performance, don't need 125mph on the Diesel Section of the route so will wait and see on that one.

 

[Sean Emmett]

Clarence Yard.
Thanks very much for your informative posts.

 

[47802]

Clarence Yard.
Thanks very much for your informative posts.

Seconded

 

[gwr4090]

Does anyone know when Swansea Maliphant will start as an operational depot? I take it that North Pole and Stoke Gifford will continue to be the only ones as regards the start of the January 2018 timetable.

RTT suggests Swansea Maliphant will start berthing Class 800s by the end of November 2017.

 

[Railperf]

Seconded

Thirded lol

 

[coppercapped]

Seconded

Is 'thirded' a valid word? If so, then thank you Clarence Yard.

 

[D1009]

Yes, my thanks to Clarence Yard and all other insiders who have to tread a fine line between what they post on here and the potential consequences of doing so.

 

[D1009]

RTT suggests Swansea Maliphant will start berthing Class 800s by the end of November 2017.

Can you tell me to which trains on RTT you are referring?

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes, my thanks to Clarence Yard and all other insiders who have to tread a fine line between what they post on here and the potential consequences of doing so.

Ditto. Informed discussion is always more interesting than speculation or guesswork.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Does anyone know when Swansea Maliphant will start as an operational depot? I take it that North Pole and Stoke Gifford will continue to be the only ones as regards the start of the January 2018 timetable.

11th December, subject to change. 06.58 Swansea-Paddington is the first up working.

 

[snowball]

and, more pressingly, on the TPE franchise's northern routes, both of which have had their electrification shelved for CP6 at the very least and probably for the foreseeable, ironically thanks to the scandalous overspends on the GW project.

Unless you have information denied to the rest of us, Trans-Pennine electrification has not been shelved. We are still waiting for the completion of GRIP 3 (option selection) which is due at the end of the year. However, in July, at around the same time as he cancelled electrification of Cardiff-Swansea, MML north of Kettering, and Oxenholme-Windermere, Grayling suggested that the outcome for TP may be discontinuous electrification, missing out the difficult bits and so requiring bi-modes. He also suggested that Standedge Tunnel may be one of the said difficult bits.

I'm not sure what you mean by "both routes", unless you're counting Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-York as one route and Leeds-Selby as another.

 

[Pete_uk]

Anyone know when the 802's will start to enter service?

Also, will it be in 2018 that services to and from Cheltenham start?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can’t help you with when Cheltenham will start seeing exactly but 800s should have fully replaced HSTs on Bristol/Cardiff/Cheltenham routes by about December 18 so at some point next year probably. Around about this time 802s will start to commence on Exeter services and to finish off the rest of the Cotswold services.

Absolutely all of GW IC services will be Class 80x trains from March/April 2019.

 

[Dave1987]

Unless you have information denied to the rest of us, Trans-Pennine electrification has not been shelved. We are still waiting for the completion of GRIP 3 (option selection) which is due at the end of the year. However, in July, at around the same time as he cancelled electrification of Cardiff-Swansea, MML north of Kettering, and Oxenholme-Windermere, Grayling suggested that the outcome for TP may be discontinuous electrification, missing out the difficult bits and so requiring bi-modes. He also suggested that Standedge Tunnel may be one of the said difficult bits.

I'm not sure what you mean by "both routes", unless you're counting Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-York as one route and Leeds-Selby as another.

Reading this months Modern Railways mag, discontinuous electrification could put maintenance costs through the roof. Would be cheaper in the long run to just electrify the whole lot. The whole scandal on GW about the protected bridge right next to a crossing shows how the DFT think bi-mode is the saviour of all evils. According to RF they are still negotiating the price for operating the engines on GW at max output so the 800’s can just about match what they are replacing.

 

[D365]

Reading this months Modern Railways mag, discontinuous electrification could put maintenance costs through the roof.

Are you able to provide a summary of the reasoning for this from the magazine extract that you refer to? I'd be interested to know as discontinuous electrification is something that has been touted by certain, *ahem*, stakeholders.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Anyone know when the 802's will start to enter service?

Also, will it be in 2018 that services to and from Cheltenham start?

Provisional target dates are 802 - 16th July 2018 and Cheltenham - 11th June 2018. The former will be 10 cars and the latter will be 9 cars.

 

[D1009]

Can’t help you with when Cheltenham will start seeing exactly but 800s should have fully replaced HSTs on Bristol/Cardiff/Cheltenham routes by about December 18 so at some point next year probably. Around about this time 802s will start to commence on Exeter services and to finish off the rest of the Cotswold services.

Absolutely all of GW IC services will be Class 80x trains from March/April 2019.

Can you please provide your source for this information?

 

[Railperf]

According to RF they are still negotiating the price for operating the engines on GW at max output so the 800’s can just about match what they are replacing.

i take it RF means Roger Ford? What else did the article say specifically about performance? I haven't seen the latest copy of Modern Railways.

 

[PHILIPE]

1B40 1345 Paddington to Swansea and 1L90 1729 Swansea to Paddington today formed 5 Cars only. According to Journey Check the epidemic of "more trains than usual under repair" has spread to the IEPs.

 

[snowball]

i take it RF means Roger Ford? What else did the article say specifically about performance? I haven't seen the latest copy of Modern Railways.

Among other things he devoted a couple of pages to the need for a speed limit for electric trains at Steventon because of the bridge and level crossing, as much discussed in the GWR Electrification thread.

 

[causton]

1B40 1345 Paddington to Swansea and 1L90 1729 Swansea to Paddington today formed 5 Cars only. According to Journey Check the epidemic of "more trains than usual under repair" has spread to the IEPs.

On 1B40 now, luckily it is not busy at all!
However:

• The coach lettering starts at F, so my reservation in coach C is not there (luckily found a table in coach J!)
• The PIS is not set up, so the external screens are completely blank and the internal ones are just displaying the time and an incorrect coach letter
• The Wi-Fi has already given up so I am using mobile tethering
• Other passengers wanted a hot drink immediately and had to wait 40 minutes for the trolley to come through after it made its way from the front!

The seats are not too bad though, so not all is lost.

 

[cactustwirly]

On 1B40 now, luckily it is not busy at all!
However:

• The coach lettering starts at F, so my reservation in coach C is not there (luckily found a table in coach J!)
• The PIS is not set up, so the external screens are completely blank and the internal ones are just displaying the time and an incorrect coach letter
• The Wi-Fi has already given up so I am using mobile tethering
• Other passengers wanted a hot drink immediately and had to wait 40 minutes for the trolley to come through after it made its way from the front!

The seats are not too bad though, so not all is lost.

800005 had blank screens when I had it yesterday.

Overall trains are not too bad, much better than a 22x/180/390. The seats are little hard for my liking.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Can you please provide your source for this information?

Yes, you are on it

 

[D365]

Yes, you are on it

I’m fairly sure that means an external source.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I’m fairly sure that means an external source.

Not so sure he's not on the sauce! That's the one of the alcoholic kind.

 

[43096]

1B40 1345 Paddington to Swansea and 1L90 1729 Swansea to Paddington today formed 5 Cars only. According to Journey Check the epidemic of "more trains than usual under repair" has spread to the IEPs.

It’s the recurring issue of trains unable couple on depot because computer says no. Hitachi need to fix that quickly - must be costing them a fortune in penalty payments.

In addition the 5 car set was only operating on two engines.

 

[Dave1987]

Are you able to provide a summary of the reasoning for this from the magazine extract that you refer to? I'd be interested to know as discontinuous electrification is something that has been touted by certain, *ahem*, stakeholders.

Basically big powerful diesel engines operate most efficiently at high constant output. Turning them on and off continually and putting them through repeated thermal cycles it not a good idea. At Steventon on GW there is a protected bridge very close to a level crossing. The DFT's answer to not putting a speed restriction in for the gradient of the wires is to just use the diesel engines for a very short stretch. But as RF pointed out MTU will not be happy with their engines being put through a full thermal cycle for short a short period. I can only imagine what their reaction would be to their engines being turn off and on repeatedly. So the costs are likely to skyrocket for any ridiculous discontinuous electrification schemes.