Notts tram faces bus competition from Dunn Line

[scandal]

The former owners of Dunn Line, as far as I am aware, are now in the process of managing the "yourbus" brand. The brand, which will run services 81/82 within Greater Nottingham is due to start June 1st, under the new brand they will be competing directly with tram line one from Bulwell/Phoenix Park into Nottingham Market Square at an every 10 minute (combined) frequency from Bulwell bus station.

To me personally I can't understand why the service is being operated, considering it is competing with an every 5-6 minute service by the tram to Highbury Vale as well as NCT buses 68-71 operating combined every 5 minutes alongside the GO2 17 ten minute frequency to Bulwell. I'd of thought to offer true tram competiton the service, particularly in peak would be extended to Hucknall, which especially during the rush hours can be noted trams leaving full.

Having reviewed the timetable, the service seems not as good as the tram to Phoenix Park (operating every 20 minutes opposed to the trams every 10) alongside this, the area is also well served by the frequent 35/78/79 bus routes toward Aspley. The service also stops at around 1800 which is rather poor compared to the competition of NCT/NET which operates well up to midnight and indeed GO2 night services on Friday/Saturday.

The service seems to have a 4 minute turnaround, which considering the city streets and tram priorities it will contend with seems optimisitic to me. The key stumbling block to the service I can see is competing with the excellent integration that NCT/NET offer with the easyrider and all day tickets.
However the bargain fares are well below that of NCT and NET will no doubt tempt passengers in particular those who often struggle to find a seat on the tram, but I can't see anything but regular commuters changing over particularly with the limited evening services in contrast to NCT/NET.

I did notice the following on the yourbus site which could provide a saving grace, but just how they can make money on this I don't see.

We accept valid NCT and NET tickets for just 50p per journey.

More information about the service that launches 1st June can be found on their website http://catchyourbus.nstudio.co.uk

 

[Mojo]

Given how cheap buses are (and the tram) in Nottingham, it's surprising more people have taken to enter the market.

It just highlights one of the problem with such competition - elsewhere in the world buses and trams integrate with each other - not compete! Hopefully the new powers in the Local Transport Act will soon be enacted to bring these bus bandits to task!

 

[gordonthemoron]

Dunnline are crap though, have Notts City council forced them to move their depot yet?

 

[scandal]

It just highlights one of the problem with such competition - elsewhere in the world buses and trams integrate with each other - not compete!

In fairness to NCT (82% council owned) and NET (no idea on the structure of this really) they do integrate well with through ticketing and depsite NCT still running a number of services at every 10 minute services to Bulwell they are well used double deckers and serve housing estates and other parts of the city that the tram doesnt. There are also feeder buses at Hucknall (by trentbarton) to link in with tram services albeit I believe theya re fairly expensive but again through ticketing is allowed.

Interestingly NET/NCT did pilot a link feeder service in bulwell to do away with the bus services albeit these soon stopped after operation began.

I somehow doubt considering the power NCT and evidently NET have that this service will gain much momentum (certainly at the every 10 minute frequency) when you consider how Bellamys failed to compete at every 20 minutes (vs every 10 minutes) with NCT, despite a quicker journey time!

The only benefit it has over the tram is that it provides SEATS, something which commuters care about more then where the power to drive their journey comes from, and at reduced prices to the tram their could be a switch.

In regards to Gordons comments I believe the depot is still ther and still facing problems http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/n...-bus-firm/article-1011130-detail/article.html

 

[generalvegitable]

have Notts City council forced them to move their depot yet?

I don't think they have Dunn that yet (sorry couldnt resist)

 

[gordonthemoron]

The timings look rather tight, 27 mins from Pheonix Park/Hempshill Vale to Frair (sic) Lane

Plus there doesn't appear to be a sunday service despite the option to show a 'sunday service'

 

[MCR247]

NCT (80% council owned)

Are they. Trandsev has 7%, but what about the on 13% then?

 

[scandal]

Are they. Trandsev has 7%, but what about the on 13% then?

I was off by 2%, Transdev own 18% of NCT.

http://www.transdev.eu/Images/Upload/Publications/NCT_uk_2009.pdf
http://www.nctx.co.uk/about/index.asp

 

[ashworth]

I think it's one of those routes for which there is perhaps a sensible need especially if it did run through to Hucknall. However, with such low prices and and being so frequent, it may only last a few months like so many of these ideas. Does anyone remember when Camms and Skills tried to run frequent buses from Nottingham to Hucknall to try and compete with Trent?

Since the tram began running Trent stopped their number 45 bus which ran from Hucknall to Nottingham via Bulwell, Basford, Hyson Green and Canning Circus. There is now no regular direct bus service from Hucknall town centre even to Bulwell. The Hucknall Tram Station being well out of the town centre and the only other stop in Hucknall being Butlers Hill have left large areas of Hucknall without a bus service to Bulwell, Basford etc. The other week I wanted to get from Hucknall to Alfreton Road. I got off the tram at Wilkinson Street and was amazed that the buses, on which used to be a very high frequency route, now only run every 30 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Slightly off topic but not far from that route...

Have Trent/Barton given up on trying to compete with the tram from Hucknall to Nottingham. I caught the bus from Hucknall to Nottingham the other week and couldn't believe the high fare. £3.40 return on the Trent Rainbow 3 service when it is only £2.70 on the tram and only £2.80 by the much faster train.

 

[MCR247]

Slightly off topic but not far from that route...

Have Trent/Barton given up on trying to compete with the tram from Hucknall to Nottingham. I caught the bus from Hucknall to Nottingham the other week and couldn't believe the high fare. £3.40 return on the Trent Rainbow 3 service when it is only £2.70 on the tram and only £2.80 by the much faster train.

All trent barton fares are like that i think, since I dont buy them I'm not sure, but they charge 1.05 to Long Eaton Green for a child on Long Eaton Xprss/Indigo. Its 1.15 child to sandiacre white lion on Commuter Xprss/4. With all the above prices being single

 

[Tom B]

It's nothing to do with the "old" Dunnline I believe - who are now run by Veolia. The new venture is something to do with another group who run buses down south in Birmingham, I believe.

 

[tramboy]

The new venture has nothing to do with old Dunn Line...true, which is now Veolia.

However, it has to do with new Dunn-Line, VOSA saying the two registered transport managers both have the surname "Dunn", and the registered company name being "Dunn-Line Transport Ltd" (or some name to that effect, as Dunn Line Holdings is now a Veolia trade name)

Cheers

Dave

 

[Tom B]

It is run by the same person who used to run Dunn-line before it sold out to Veolia, though.

 

[Metroland]

Only in this country would the buses go into competition with trams and trains, shouldn't they be try to be enticing people out of cars?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Only in this country would the buses go into competition with trams and trains, shouldn't they be try to be enticing people out of cars?

It won't last, previous attempts have failed. However, I can't understand how the X1 service between Bingham & Nottingham has kept going as there are hardly any passengers who use it (even during the rush hour)

 

[scandal]

It won't last, previous attempts have failed. However, I can't understand how the X1 service between Bingham & Nottingham has kept going as there are hardly any passengers who use it (even during the rush hour)

I think you will be suprised to find that the Bingham X1 by Premiere is suprisingly popular, in particular the service was initally drafted by Notts CC to reduce the overcrowding on peak Bingham Xprss trentbarton services (running every 15mins). It operated hourly during the peaks using fairly old buses, but is now running every 30mins throughout the day. Infact some new Wright Meridian buses have been ordered for the service. The main reason why it is so popular is a combination of reasons, firstly it mirrors the NCT Green Line "city loop" idea serving a wide range of people working in Nottingham rather then the Broadmarsh bus station and Friar Lane. Secondly the fares are signifcantly cheaper, until very recently 10 trips for £10 was around which obviously is outstanding value even compared to Frio, I cant remember the exact fare now on Binghams but as I say the 10 trips £10 was a deal, indeed so over subscribed it has now been discontinued for unlimited 7 days travel for £10.

I think it's one of those routes for which there is perhaps a sensible need especially if it did run through to Hucknall. However, with such low prices and and being so frequent, it may only last a few months like so many of these ideas.

I agree, indeed my opening post makes the point it would be most beneficial for them to extend to Hucknall as the areas it serves is already well covered by NCT (indeed Bulwell has the GO2 17 every 15mins whilst Phoenix Park Rainbow 1 every 10 this as well as the tram). The people in Hucknall however have lost the Hucknall flyer yet gained a fairly expensive? link bus service from Hucknall tesco into the town centre and main areas of population. This doesnt detract from the point that trams quite often leave Hucknall full.

Since the tram began running Trent stopped their number 45 bus which ran from Hucknall to Nottingham via Bulwell, Basford, Hyson Green and Canning Circus. There is now no regular direct bus service from Hucknall town centre even to Bulwell. The Hucknall Tram Station being well out of the town centre and the only other stop in Hucknall being Butlers Hill have left large areas of Hucknall without a bus service to Bulwell, Basford etc. The other week I wanted to get from Hucknall to Alfreton Road. I got off the tram at Wilkinson Street and was amazed that the buses, on which used to be a very high frequency route, now only run every 30 minutes.

Yes and No. Dunn Line, run the 170 that runs hourly from Hucknall to Bulwell, Cinderhill, Alfreton Road and to the Victoria Bus station.

http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/large-static/nottsbus/timetables/VEO170.htm

Whilst Hucknall has lost the 45, there is still the half hourly train service to Bulwell (which you could connect onto one of the many NCT routes to Alfreton road way) and of course the tram.

Have Trent/Barton given up on trying to compete with the tram from Hucknall to Nottingham. I caught the bus from Hucknall to Nottingham the other week and couldn't believe the high fare. £3.40 return on the Trent Rainbow 3 service when it is only £2.70 on the tram and only £2.80 by the much faster train.

I don't think they ever tried to actively compete, I recall it being withdrawn in 2004 shortly after the tram service. Trents Rainbow 3 confuses me, the service is meant to be fast and high quality, yet the pronto is much faster from Nottingham-Mansfield while the tram/train is quicker to Hucknall (and train to Sutton) also I suspect significantly cheaper. The R3 seems to be a local link service which is why I find it hard to understand why it is part of the "high frequency, high quality" rainbow band.

Going slightly back to topic, the yourbus so far as I can tell is not making an impact on the tram or NCT services. It is of course far too early to comment, but the very busy well served transport corridor shows no siogns of a modal shift. Perhaps this will last until next month when peoples tram passes/NCT passes run out, only time will tell.

For years in Nottingham there has been a mutual respect between Trent and NCT they dont tend to outwardly compete with each other, they know their areas and stick to them. Interestingly however, Premiere, traditionally know for its coaches has started to bid for a number of council contracts and improving the frequencies and adding distinct branding to them. Indeed the X1 (previously mentioned), your7 to Woodborough via Mapperley and Arnold and now the X9 have all seen signifcant improvements from the inital tenders.

For the record the X9 takes over from Arriva's 99 service from Nottingham - Loughborough...the 99 still ruins Coalville-Loughborough. It will remian initally hourly.

http://local-bus.co.uk/news.html

 

[ashworth]

Yes and No. Dunn Line, run the 170 that runs hourly from Hucknall to Bulwell, Cinderhill, Alfreton Road and to the Victoria Bus station.

http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/large-static/nottsbus/timetables/VEO170.htm

Whilst Hucknall has lost the 45, there is still the half hourly train service to Bulwell (which you could connect onto one of the many NCT routes to Alfreton road way) and of course the tram.

Whilst I agree with most of what you say I would just like to point out the following:

The train service between Hucknall and Bulwell is actually only hourly as alternate trains do not stop at Bulwell. As the train follows the same route as the tram it also does not serve Hucknall town centre and other residential areas of Hucknall including the main road between Hucknall and Bulwell some parts that are long distances from tram stops.

The new Dunn Line 170 service does to a large extent meet this need but it has only been running by this direct route for a couple of weeks as previously it ran a very roundabout route via the Vaughn Estate and Bestwood Village.
Great now, but until a few weeks ago there has not been a regular direct bus service between Hucknall and Bulwell for at least 4 years.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I did notice the following on the yourbus site which could provide a saving grace, but just how they can make money on this I don't see.

We accept valid NCT and NET tickets for just 50p per journey.

You don't make money from that directly, as such. There's a number of ways to look at, but in my eyes it's a sensible approach that can work in the long run.

Bare in mind that people generally hate waiting at bus stops, regardless of how often buses actually run, people just want to get on a bus and get to where they are going. If 'yourbus' arrive at a bus stop where 2 people - both holding NCT weekly tickets - are waiting. Offer them the chance to get on for 50p and you may well make £1. Tell them that they have to pay £1.50 (or whatever the full fare is) and you will most likely make no money whatsoever because they won't get on.

Obviously, nobody's going to make a profit by running round with buses full of people who are only paying 50p. However, on it's own, it is useful extra income on top of full fare paying passengers.

Another incentive to offering this sort of deal is that once the NCT ticket holder has made a 50p journey on a 'yourbus' service, they may, for whatever reason (better buses, cleanliness, less anti-social behaviour, friendly and helpful drivers etc etc) decide that they prefer the 'yourbus' service and transfer from being NCT customers to 'yourbus' customers. Alternatively, a passenger who finds themselves regularly paying the 50p fare - because they finish work at a certain time and the 'yourbus' service almost always arrives at the bus stop before the NCT service, for example - may decide to switch entirely to using the 'yourbus' service for similar reasons to those listed above, or may switch to buying a multi-operator type ticket that costs slightly more than the NCT ticket but offers them a saving over paying 50p per day to get on the 'yourbus' service. Depending on the system of reimbursment to operators with a multi-operator ticketing scheme, this may actually benefit 'yourbus' further as the payment per journey that they receive may well be higher than 50p.

Obviously the points above may not apply, but they certainly apply in certain other areas. NCT can be substituted for any other major operator and 'yourbus' for any independent operator when making such comparisons.

 

[Mojo]

I wonder how many inroads they will make - it might be popular with commuters on the 9-5, but generally speaking, most bus passengers travel that way because they don't have a car and as such they have the demand to travel after 6/7pm, when these buses stop running.

Secondly, LRT schemes outside London generally have a modal shift away from car of about 20% (unfortunately I don't have the exact stats for Nottingham). Furthermore, 21% of Nottingham Express Transit users are those who also have a car parked at one of their Park & ride facilities. Therefore they consider the tram an alternative to their car and wouldn't have previously looked at the bus as a viable option.

I'm struggling therefore to see what kind of market they are looking alongside this route. Sure, they will have the single & return tickets market, the people identified by the poster above me and they will also get money from the multioperator/multimodal tickets in the area (assuming there are any and assuming the new company is a member) and free travel passes, but I can't see that being a viable proposition in the long-term, especially given how cheap both Nottingham Express Transit and the other bus company already running in that area is.

 

[scandal]

I wonder how many inroads they will make - it might be popular with commuters on the 9-5, but generally speaking, most bus passengers travel that way because they don't have a car and as such they have the demand to travel after 6/7pm, when these buses stop running.

I have it on good authority these buses are running empty, even during the peaks, but it is early days yet most people buy weekly/monthly travel passes and it takes a while to spread the word.

Secondly, LRT schemes outside London generally have a modal shift away from car of about 20% (unfortunately I don't have the exact stats for Nottingham). Furthermore, 21% of Nottingham Express Transit users are those who also have a car parked at one of their Park & ride facilities. Therefore they consider the tram an alternative to their car and wouldn't have previously looked at the bus as a viable option.

Tell that to the new Conservative County Council in Nottinghamshire who are withdrawing the £28m funding for the new tram lines which will remove a project 2m cars from the counties roads...Kay Cutts believes the transport budget is better spent on more frequent buses (little or marginal improvement benefit shown in the Greater Nottingham transport plan for this scheme compared with the tram).

However they seem unaware that Clifton has recently increased bus services from every 10 to 8 minutes, Wilford has regular services along with the Meadows. Beeston/Chilwell have every 6 minute TB + NCT every 10 amongst other routes......yet a modal shift isnt happening. This current 'yourbus' scheme highlights the fact that a modal shift from car -> PT is only really possible (for substantial gains) by light rail.

 

[scandal]

Just an update I have it on good advice that these services are operating empty, or nearly empty. Most passengers seem to be the concessionary fares types.