Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Harpers Tate]

I don't believe this is (any longer) about Northern. We aren't getting them. But it is (or at least ought to be) about their suitability as trains anywhere on the network, and I have yet to see any meaningful fact (as opposed to opinionated view) about them that has any material bearing on that. The truth is, the network as a whole is in dire need of more trains; it has been for years, and it still is. And dismissing these out of hand for any of the three "irrelevances" I note would be poor decision making.

 

[mushroomchow]

Aside from debating the nuances of VivaRail's financial intricacies, the new RM landed on my doorstep yesterday - 230002 is nearly finished and they'll be testing it in the new year, apparently. They're going to have an in-depth feature on VivaRail and the 230s in their February issue.

 

[michael74]

Not that I am aware of, but happy to be shown wrong by those who know better. There is a public health issue with Diesel particulates being released by frequent use of diesel trains. However given diesel engineering trains run through the tunnels at the moment, even at times when the platforms are open, I fail to see why what is essentially a bi-mode could not run around the loop line with the engines shut down running off the 3rd rail supply.

Aren't the new Merseyrail trains going to eliminate the gap between train and platform, in essence the use of a 230 would be turning the clock back.

 

[47802]

I don't believe this is (any longer) about Northern. We aren't getting them. But it is (or at least ought to be) about their suitability as trains anywhere on the network, and I have yet to see any meaningful fact (as opposed to opinionated view) about them that has any material bearing on that. The truth is, the network as a whole is in dire need of more trains; it has been for years, and it still is. And dismissing these out of hand for any of the three "irrelevances" I note would be poor decision making.

Last 3 franchises awarded which have required Diesel Trains, Northern: New 195's plus cascaded 170's and 150's plus a few additional 156 and 158 and a few converted 319's in pref to D230. Anglia: New Stadler Bi-modes, WMT: New 195 variant, plus cascade 172's and maybe 3 x D230 for a line which may be actually suited to a D train. I think there is a bit of clue there.

The things you dismiss as 'irrelevences' yes may not be that relevant to some operators but will be to other operators.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can anyone with any knowledge give any dates for the holding of the final approval tests on the Class 230 units and will it be necessary to receive the requisite authorisations to cover both the diesel driven and the battery driven versions of the Class 230 units in these tests.

 

[Bantamzen]

Had these trains come to Northern then they would have likely been an alternative to 195's and not 150's, and while the 195's can show a significant improvement for passengers on the new Northern Connect routes, the D230's would have been same old same old, and as a Northerner I think its high time we had something better. Ideally the 150's should have been replaced by 195's in this franchise as well but realistically than was never going to happen but at least the Railbuses will be replaced by a majority of trains which should be a significantly better product and take Northern Rail forward.

Uh oh, you've done it now 47802!!! That can of worms is open again......

 

[keith1879]

The things that you dismiss as irrelevant are clearly not so, however all this stuff has been discussed at length previously so I'm not going to bother with a point by point long winded reply, except to while the 150's are not brilliant this are certainly not the worst train in the world and I fail to see how this unproven ex metro train with less capacity would be an improvement on a 150.

I have to say that it would be very easy for a class 230 to be better than a class 150 in terms of passenger environment - but of course that does not mean that it actually would. The Northern 150 refurbishment still leaves us with noisy trains, cramped seating and a generally claustrophobic interior. The higher seating capacity is largely theoretical since three people with legs of my length cannot sit on an airline triple seat (in fact two on a double seat is fairly uncomfortable). Many of the 150 services are commuter services ...they just happen to be above ground (like the Metropolitan Line for the vast majority of its length). I try not to be a banner waver for what is still (and may always be) an unproven product but to base an argument on the notion that a train built for the London Underground is automatically inferior to one built for BR seems specious to me and to name specifically the class 150 which I have to endure regularly and have considered to be a horrible vehicle since the day of its introduction is a step too far. Nothing personal 47802 - I hope it doesn't seem that way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But 3+2 seating is an option. 150s can be fitted with 2+2 seating.

You can put any seats in any train.

 

[reddragon]

I have to say that it would be very easy for a class 230 to be better than a class 150 in terms of passenger environment - but of course that does not mean that it actually would. The Northern 150 refurbishment still leaves us with noisy trains, cramped seating and a generally claustrophobic interior. The higher seating capacity is largely theoretical since three people with legs of my length cannot sit on an airline triple seat (in fact two on a double seat is fairly uncomfortable). Many of the 150 services are commuter services ...they just happen to be above ground (like the Metropolitan Line for the vast majority of its length). I try not to be a banner waver for what is still (and may always be) an unproven product but to base an argument on the notion that a train built for the London Underground is automatically inferior to one built for BR seems specious to me and to name specifically the class 150 which I have to endure regularly and have considered to be a horrible vehicle since the day of its introduction is a step too far. Nothing personal 47802 - I hope it doesn't seem that way.

London Underground have had modern electric trains since 1890. The 1938 & CO/CP stock were better than any mainline stock apart from the OKish class 502/503s until the 1970s brought in modern mainline trains with the class 313. The D78s are more modern in design than the mk3 based stock which was designed 8 years earlier.

The D78 body shell is better than the Mk3 EMU/DMU body shell is design / weight / doors. Maybe some class 317s / 315s could be scrapped and donate their bogies to the class 230s to give a real modern train! LUL stock has always been very over engineered (except the 1983 stock), which is why London still has 1972 & 1973 stock in service, A stock from 1961 has just gone and 1938 stock survives on the IOW.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The D78s already have newish bogies, they were replaced due to cracking. Certainly newer than 313/315!

 

[Clip]

Can anyone with any knowledge give any dates for the holding of the final approval tests on the Class 230 units and will it be necessary to receive the requisite authorisations to cover both the diesel driven and the battery driven versions of the Class 230 units in these tests.

Now Paul, you are well aware that none of us on here are that much 'in the know' on these things you pass comment on(constantly) however just a few posts above we have this from an issue of a railway magazine

Aside from debating the nuances of VivaRail's financial intricacies, the new RM landed on my doorstep yesterday - 230002 is nearly finished and they'll be testing it in the new year, apparently. They're going to have an in-depth feature on VivaRail and the 230s in their February issue.

Which is probably the best we will get till they start and we can read about them in the feature and then you will know as much as the rest of us

 

[keith1879]

But 3+2 seating is an option. 150s can be fitted with 2+2 seating.

You can put any seats in any train.

Of course you can!! But the 150 refurbs still have the same cramped seats - my point was that the 230s COULD be better than the 150s actually are. No more and no less.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Yes, and they are recycled/old trains. And noisy and draughty. Few redeeming features, in fact.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, and they are recycled/old trains. And noisy and draughty. Few redeeming features, in fact.

Have you been on one, assuming you refer to 230s?

 

[B&I]

Not that I am aware of, but happy to be shown wrong by those who know better. There is a public health issue with Diesel particulates being released by frequent use of diesel trains. However given diesel engineering trains run through the tunnels at the moment, even at times when the platforms are open, I fail to see why what is essentially a bi-mode could not run around the loop line with the engines shut down running off the 3rd rail supply.

Must confess I can't say for certain what the basis for that is, but seem to remember seeing it discussed somewhere. Exceptions for the odd visiting diesel loco may be easier to come by than for a DEMU in continual service (albeit standing on a loop line platform when a maintenance train comes in is asking for asphyxiation). I would only see use of the 230s beyond the current Merseyrail limits as a stop-gap to allow increased frequencies, pending electrification and extension of proper Merseyrail services.

 

[Nicks]

I assume the remaining D stock is stored outside somewhere gradually rotting away, surely it's been several years now since some have turned a wheel - no warm storage for them, so the costs of getting them back into service can only be going up...

 

[Harpers Tate]

Have you been on one, assuming you refer to 230s?

Incorrect assumption. See post right above mine (to which I was responding).

 

[47802]

Yes, and they are recycled/old trains. And noisy and draughty. Few redeeming features, in fact.

So a D230 is not old then? have you been on a D230? what's the ride like at 60mph and what's the noise like? and isn't potentially just as draughty as a 150.

I was on 150/2 the other day 1hour 40min journey, yes not the best train for that length of journey but not the worst either which was the railbus on the return journey. Yes i'm sure D230 could be given a nice interior at significant cost but then so could a 150, but in terms of Northern want to use them for as a high capacity commuter DMU they are likely good enough for the job.

Anyway there are some Photo's on Northern's Twitter page of the new trains should they be getting those or D230's?

 

[D365]

Nobody is questioning whether Northern should have procured the 230s ‘or’ the 195s (which according to you, sounds like it must be mutually exclusive).

We’ve long established that the Northern franchise won’t be taking any. The continued vitriol from those concernced (and the apparent nonchalance about quite a number of people potentially losing jobs) is absurd, and goes against a lot of the trends oft set on this forum.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I have not been on a 230, of course. What I am doing is comparing the hypothesised negativity about the 230s (viz: they are old/recycled etc.) that seems to render them wholly unsuitable for anything in some commentators' minds, with similar factors as they apply to things we actually do have working the network now and are proposed for the future. If you applied the same logic to the 150s (etc.), then you'd similarly dismiss those, for two of the three main negativities apply at least equally.

And, once again, I know that Northern isn't getting 230s, and don't quite understand why Northern keeps coming up in this context.

My contention remains that (unless and until we know for certain otherwise) to blindly dismiss the 230 as being unsuitable for use on huge parts of our national railway network because of these same three factors is flawed decision making. Despite its new trains, Northern will almost certainly remain short of rolling stock and will continue to operate trains that are inadequate and unfit for purpose for the duration of the franchise. As will various others. The entire system is short of rolling stock. It matters not which operator gets which train and where they use it (within route compatibility constraints) - as long as there are more. If the 230 forms part of a solution that will provide more then, bring it on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly.

There is a need for new high quality rolling stock for express services - which Northern are getting. There is also a need for lower-quality, volume self-powered rolling stock for local services - the 230 can be that, as can the 769.

I do hope the Marston Vale order goes ahead, I'd really like to see how these do in service. If they're rubbish, something else will need to be found (I'd probably suggest a follow-on of three more 2-car 195s for Northern to allow them to cascade three 150s to "wmtrains"[1]) but let's give it a go first.

[1] Without expensive work (moving signals etc) 2x16-20m is the only suitable length for the Marston Vale. That work may well be done for EWR, but we need a stopgap for the next 10-15 years or so that isn't based on 23-24m vehicles, which means 150s or 230s, basically. The only other thing I can think of is a diesel engine in a 456, but that's along the same lines as a 230 anyway.

 

[Domh245]

I do hope the Marston Vale order goes ahead, I'd really like to see how these do in service. If they're rubbish, something else will need to be found (I'd probably suggest a follow-on of three more 2-car 195s for Northern to allow them to cascade three 150s to "wmtrains") but let's give it a go first.

If you were going to go to the expense of ordering new trains, surely a follow on order from the wmtrains civities would be the logical option - some degree of fleet commonality then

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you were going to go to the expense of ordering new trains, surely a follow on order from the wmtrains civities would be the logical option - some degree of fleet commonality then

But wmtrains don't[1] have any Class 150s to cascade down. The Class 150 is the only suitable existing stock because 2x23-24m would require signals to be moved, while 1x23-24m is too short for some services (principally the school trains) and would result in people being left behind or the need to operate an awkward frequency and the cost of more staff to do so.

New stock for the Vale itself is not an option as nobody[2] presently offers a 20m bodyshell DMU, all the new DMUs are offered as 24m only.

[1] They do at the moment of course but they are off to Northern - we'd need to give Northern something else so they could stay.

[2] Wellll.....would Stadler do a 2-car FLIRT?

 

[superalbs]

[2] Wellll.....would Stadler do a 2-car FLIRT?

There's a Stadler WINK, which is two car.

 

[47802]

But wmtrains don't[1] have any Class 150s to cascade down. The Class 150 is the only suitable existing stock because 2x23-24m would require signals to be moved, while 1x23-24m is too short for some services (principally the school trains) and would result in people being left behind or the need to operate an awkward frequency and the cost of more staff to do so.

New stock for the Vale itself is not an option as nobody[2] presently offers a 20m bodyshell DMU, all the new DMUs are offered as 24m only.

[1] They do at the moment of course but they are off to Northern - we'd need to give Northern something else so they could stay.

[2] Wellll.....would Stadler do a 2-car FLIRT?

By the time take account of the power car I doubt a 2 car flirt or wink would be any shorter than a 195.

 

[47802]

Nobody is questioning whether Northern should have procured the 230s ‘or’ the 195s (which according to you, sounds like it must be mutually exclusive).

We’ve long established that the Northern franchise won’t be taking any. The continued vitriol from those concernced (and the apparent nonchalance about quite a number of people potentially losing jobs) is absurd, and goes against a lot of the trends oft set on this forum.

Yes we have long established that Northern wont be getting any and that any 150 DMU shortfall to Northern is likely to be made up with 769's, but it seems to me that people continually make veiled references to Northern, and that Northern will not have enough stock, but yet they are largely getting the level of stock that is agreed in the franchise and if that's not enough then there is the option to take more stock that is roughly equivalent to a class 170 in specification.

We know that the D230's target market was the Northern franchise, and now they are a solution in search of a problem. Yes there is Wales but given Northern isn't having I sure the idea of being foisted on to Wales would go down like a lead balloon, the more likely situation is a few sales here and there for specific situations like Marston Vale but you got to doubt how many they will flog in those situations and how viable the whole project will turn out to be.

Ultimately do we want 1980's cheap and cheerful or do we want something better for our railways going forward?

 

[northwichcat]

Yes we have long established that Northern wont be getting any and that any 150 DMU shortfall to Northern is likely to be made up with 769's, but it seems to me that people continually make veiled references to Northern, and that Northern will not have enough stock, but yet they are largely getting the level of stock that is agreed in the franchise and if that's not enough then there is the option to take more stock that is roughly equivalent to a class 170 in specification.

We know that the D230's target market was the Northern franchise, and now they are a solution in search of a problem. Yes there is Wales but given Northern isn't having I sure the idea of being foisted on to Wales would go down like a lead balloon, the more likely situation is a few sales here and there for specific situations like Marston Vale but you got to doubt how many they will flog in those situations and how viable the whole project will turn out to be.

Ultimately do we want 1980's cheap and cheerful or do we want something better for our railways going forward?

Their original thinking seemed to be new DMU orders are unlikely to be economically viable and electrification and freed up DMUs wouldn't be able to replace Pacers by themselves. While that once seemed to be DfT official policy it seemed to have very flawed logic - relying to an overly ambitious electrification program, ignoring the costs of PRM modifications to Pacers and 153s, being based on diesel running out and diesel trains having to be scrapped before they are life expired etc.

While Mr Shooter saw an opportunity it seems he thought DfT would not realise the flaws in their logic and thought it would be much quicker and cheaper to convert the D-Stock than it actually proved to be. I also don't think he predicted CAF being desperate for work and willing to offer very attractive prices for new build trains in a bid to get UK orders.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I'd agree - CAF changed the game by offering new-build DMUs at an affordable price. Otherwise it'd have been Stadler or Stadler, and I don't think they are cheap.

The Marston Vale is the one oddity, which were it not for the "back end hanging over the level crossing" issue would be fine with 2-car Class 172s (or Civities) being used, with local door only at the short platforms.

 

[northwichcat]

Otherwise it'd have been Stadler or Stadler, and I don't think they are cheap.

I imagine the EMUs are a typical EMU price otherwise Merseyrail wouldn't be getting them but bi-modes seem to be expensive whoever makes them and I'm not sure if Stadler have a diesel only option for the FLIRT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I imagine the EMUs are a typical EMU price otherwise Merseyrail wouldn't be getting them but bi-modes seem to be expensive whoever makes them and I'm not sure if Stadler have a diesel only option for the FLIRT.

I'd expect they will, but as it's a DEMU by design (there is no scope to have the diesel engines that would just involve "not fitting the pantograph and transformer", which won't reduce the cost a lot, so you might as well have them just in case they are useful later.

Merseyrail is a VERY custom job, which I expect gave Stadler an advantage, as relatively short runs of customised vehicles are their bread and butter. I'd expect Bombardier said "you can have Aventras, S-stock or nowt", and Siemens said the same about Desiros.