Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Skimble19]

Interesting take from GTR about passengers with reduced mobility.

Wondered how long it would be until bits from Pit Stop started making an appearance on here.. out of interest, beyond thinking it’s an interesting take, what are your opinions on the above process?

 

[SPADTrap]

Wondered how long it would be until bits from Pit Stop started making an appearance on here.. out of interest, beyond thinking it’s an interesting take, what are your opinions on the above process?

I can't figure out whether they mean don't assist someone onto a train if it will delay it, or not?

 

[pompeyfan]

The other day a southern train was delayed at a station for over 10 minutes while the driver deployed the ramp as the station was unmanned and there was obviously no 2nd staff member available

 

[AlterEgo]

I can't figure out whether they mean don't assist someone onto a train if it will delay it, or not?

I read it as “don’t cause delay minutes because of a booked assist”, basically if it’ll take you a while to get the equipment etc, make them wait for the next one. Not great on parts of the network with a less than metro frequency.

 

[tsr]

Yep, given some station staff work at stations with only an hourly or half-hourly service, it certainly isn’t brilliant.

 

[otomous]

Why do they not think it is necessary to inform the driver? It affects dispatch somewhat!

 

[SPADTrap]

Why do they not think it is necessary to inform the driver? It affects dispatch somewhat!

And in the event of an emergency train evacuation, having seen a copy of the 'Pit Stop' staff brief the emphasis is on minimising delays to 'protect' the 24tph idea. What could go wrong? The book even mentions a second member of staff to prevent late running passengers from boarding a train! They're in full panic mode.

 

[physics34]

The other day a southern train was delayed at a station for over 10 minutes while the driver deployed the ramp as the station was unmanned and there was obviously no 2nd staff member available

in theory he is not meant to do that

 

[physics34]

And in the event of an emergency train evacuation, having seen a copy of the 'Pit Stop' staff brief the emphasis is on minimising delays to 'protect' the 24tph idea. What could go wrong? The book even mentions a second member of staff to prevent late running passengers from boarding a train! They're in full panic mode.

if the driver needs the loo the whole timetable will collapse. It WILL happen. I wonder how the tube copes?

 

[Alteran Ancient]

in theory he is not meant to do that

I wouldn't be surprised if the driver was doing it to make a point. You can't guarantee both an on-time and accessible railway with just one member of staff at the helm.

 

[SPADTrap]

I wouldn't be surprised if the driver was doing it to make a point. You can't guarantee both an on-time and accessible railway with just one member of staff at the helm.

Probably because they're a good person and wouldn't feel human departing and leaving someone behind, I have done similar when I drove DOO. I didn't last long before I moved to a proper company.

 

[Chrisgr31]

if the driver needs the loo the whole timetable will collapse. It WILL happen. I wonder how the tube copes?

In many cases the Tube has the advantage that all the trains are coming from the same place and going to the same place so they just follow each other and dont have the same type of published timetable. As a passenger you only know they are delayed if you happen to be waiting at a station for the delayed one. Going through the core the trains are coming from and going to all over the place and you have to catch the correct train and they are timetabled so you know they are late.

For good measures the trains through the core also have the added issue of having to raise and lower the pantograph to add potential issues!

 

[XDM]

Most new OBS are doing a good job. Some are brilliant announcers, far better than many of the old guards.
I do wish the old lags here would stop hammering them. The new OBS jobs have given these newcomers a gateway into the industry & most are very conscientious & we are lucky they have been recruited. A very few are no good but they can be retrained or sorted.

 

[kw12]

I wouldn't be surprised if the driver was doing it to make a point. You can't guarantee both an on-time and accessible railway with just one member of staff at the helm.

It is not possible to guarantee an on-time railway. This applies regardless of the number of staff on trains and at stations.

 

[Sprinter153]

Most new OBS are doing a good job. Some are brilliant announcers, far better than many of the old guards.
I do wish the old lags here would stop hammering them. The new OBS jobs have given these newcomers a gateway into the industry & most are very conscientious & we are lucky they have been recruited. A very few are no good but they can be retrained or sorted.

All very good you saying that, Charles, but those of us that are subject to and administer strict competence management and mystery shopping requirements can see problems with the OBS nirvana. All the smoothly worded announcements in the world are no use if you have no operational or route knowledge to base them on. Similarly I have concerns about people without formal competence messing around with door panels. I agree with you that some of the people given a meaningful job, appropriate training and standards or competence management would indeed be assets to the railway but I fail to see how the present arrangement does any more than paying lip service to customer experience.

As for not hammering them, I do wish you would stop hammering the Guards (and everyone else below MS grade bar your beloved OBS).

 

[Chrisgr31]

Some are brilliant announcers, far better than many of the old guards.

What does this actually mean? There is no doubt that some of the guards are/were brilliant announcers and far better than many of their guard colleagues.

Of course the reality is many customers hate all the announcements particularly regular passengers who hear them all daily. Whether the many that hate them are a greater number than the some that love them is of course a different question.

 

[Carlisle]

All the smoothly worded announcements in the world are no use if you have no operational or route knowledge .

I’m convinced most would agree additional route and operational knowledge are extremely useful assets for any OBS to have, but doesn’t the real debate centre on whether the traditional guards version of that operational/route knowledge is sufficiently relevant on today’s railway to warrant continuing virtually unchanged for many years or even decades to come, or not.?

 

[CN75]

I’m convinced most would agree additional route and operational knowledge are extremely useful assets for any OBS to have, but doesn’t the real debate centre on whether the traditional guards version of that operational/route knowledge is sufficiently relevant on today’s railway to warrant continuing virtually unchanged for many years or even decades to come, or not.?

How much route knowledge a guard gets will depend upon each company’s standard. Therefore it’s variable, therefore, it’s not really that relevant since it works fine for the lowest common denominator. The railway rules even say that it’s for companies to decide what level of route knowledge they believe is adequate for a guard themselves.

Guards need route knowledge for station signals as long as they dispatch trains. The other route knowledge for tunnels and level crossings is about identifying locations and broadly goes back to emergency protection or pulling emergency brake handles. This bit is borderline redundant. Emergency protection rules surely won’t survive another five years in the rule book (at least in the current form), so guards won’t require that route knowledge. In the 1995 accident at Ais Gill, the guard didn’t do protection or follow the rules of course and that was the key cause of the accident, but the GSM radio is now in place everywhere and theoretically provides vastly superior protection arrangements than the guard in the night time with his red lamp.

It would obviously be very useful for passengers if guards had as much route training as possible on their routes for non safety/railway knowledge, such as places of interest, locations of cash machines, transport connections, locations of the stations to towns etc. Unfortunately this would be seen as de-skilling guards by many when in fact it is the reverse.

 

[theironroad]

How much route knowledge a guard gets will depend upon each company’s standard. Therefore it’s variable, therefore, it’s not really that relevant since it works fine for the lowest common denominator. The railway rules even say that it’s for companies to decide what level of route knowledge they believe is adequate for a guard themselves.

Guards need route knowledge for station signals as long as they dispatch trains. The other route knowledge for tunnels and level crossings is about identifying locations and broadly goes back to emergency protection or pulling emergency brake handles. This bit is borderline redundant. Emergency protection rules surely won’t survive another five years in the rule book (at least in the current form), so guards won’t require that route knowledge. In the 1995 accident at Ais Gill, the guard didn’t do protection or follow the rules of course and that was the key cause of the accident, but the GSM radio is now in place everywhere and theoretically provides vastly superior protection arrangements than the guard in the night time with his red lamp.

It would obviously be very useful for passengers if guards had as much route training as possible on their routes for non safety/railway knowledge, such as places of interest, locations of cash machines, transport connections, locations of the stations to towns etc. Unfortunately this would be seen as de-skilling guards by many when in fact it is the reverse.

I'm not sure if you mean emergency protection rules will disappear from the rule book only for guards or for drivers as well. If you include driver, then refer to the incident last year or year before where a train hit cows in Kent and gsmr was knocked out. Gsmr isn't perfect and the rules for emergency protection are there as a last resort.

 

[SPADTrap]

Most new OBS are doing a good job. Some are brilliant announcers, far better than many of the old guards.
I do wish the old lags here would stop hammering them. The new OBS jobs have given these newcomers a gateway into the industry & most are very conscientious & we are lucky they have been recruited. A very few are no good but they can be retrained or sorted.

It isn't a hammering of them. Their grade is 'guaranteed' until the next franchise which could be soon, what happens then? They're working with a fixed hand, so to speak.

 

[IanXC]

How much route knowledge a guard gets will depend upon each company’s standard. Therefore it’s variable, therefore, it’s not really that relevant since it works fine for the lowest common denominator. The railway rules even say that it’s for companies to decide what level of route knowledge they believe is adequate for a guard themselves.

Guards need route knowledge for station signals as long as they dispatch trains. The other route knowledge for tunnels and level crossings is about identifying locations and broadly goes back to emergency protection or pulling emergency brake handles. This bit is borderline redundant. Emergency protection rules surely won’t survive another five years in the rule book (at least in the current form), so guards won’t require that route knowledge. In the 1995 accident at Ais Gill, the guard didn’t do protection or follow the rules of course and that was the key cause of the accident, but the GSM radio is now in place everywhere and theoretically provides vastly superior protection arrangements than the guard in the night time with his red lamp.

It would obviously be very useful for passengers if guards had as much route training as possible on their routes for non safety/railway knowledge, such as places of interest, locations of cash machines, transport connections, locations of the stations to towns etc. Unfortunately this would be seen as de-skilling guards by many when in fact it is the reverse.

While there is still stock with direct brake application passcoms there is still a good argument for Guards being required to have sufficient knowledge to know whether bringing the train to a halt in that position is wise or not.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

So next week will see Thameslink starting to take over London Bridge-Horsham... DOO with no second person here we come

 

[InOban]

As I see it, the fundamentals of the dispute is this. The traditional safety-critical job description described tasks which they carried out on a regular basis, since trains were unbraked and had no corridors. Except in an emergency, they had no contact with passengers, who were assisted on and off by platform staff.
As time past, their traditional tasks occupied less and less time, and their role was extended to other duties such as ticket checking and issuing, but these tasks were add-ons to their traditional duties.

However the new OBS role turns this back to front. Their core roles are passenger-facing, and the emergency roles are secondary. Personally I think the new roles are more important to the passengers and should be well-deserved. But society doesn't value people skills.

 

[tsr]

So next week will see Thameslink starting to take over London Bridge-Horsham... DOO with no second person here we come

Nope. Horsham services will have Passenger Hosts booked to accompany the train.

 

[OxtedSignaller]

Nope. Horsham services will have Passenger Hosts booked to accompany the train.

I hope this continues because obviously Thameslink don’t have the same obligations as agreed on Southern. I still worry this will be an inferior service to what a lot of our experienced former Guards and OBS of today offer. Pretty sure this means that a Ticket Examiner will be travelling on the train. Are they competent to make announcements, reset passcoms etc as they certainly don’t north of the river.

 

[tsr]

I hope this continues because obviously Thameslink don’t have the same obligations as agreed on Southern. I still worry this will be an inferior service to what a lot of our experienced former Guards and OBS of today offer. Pretty sure this means that a Ticket Examiner will be travelling on the train. Are they competent to make announcements, reset passcoms etc as they certainly don’t north of the river.

As previously posted, they have exactly the same obligations when they are taking over a service formerly operated by another operator (or brand of the same operator). Namely that they cannot reduce provision for those requiring accessible travel. As the former Southern services had conductors, then OBSs, booked on every train, it follows that Thameslink must provide the same level of service when operating the same services under their brand.

I totally agree when it comes to concerns about what the Passenger Hosts can actually do on 700s. I haven't yet been advised on what they may be competent to do, so I await that information with interest...

 

[Skimble19]

As previously posted, they have exactly the same obligations when they are taking over a service formerly operated by another operator (or brand of the same operator). Namely that they cannot reduce provision for those requiring accessible travel. As the former Southern services had conductors, then OBSs, booked on every train, it follows that Thameslink must provide the same level of service when operating the same services under their brand.

I totally agree when it comes to concerns about what the Passenger Hosts can actually do on 700s. I haven't yet been advised on what they may be competent to do, so I await that information with interest...

Well this should be interesting.. I wonder if this will continue when the Horsham services are merged with the Peterborough services or if there will be a specific point on the journey where they will board and depart. I can’t see them being required north of the river as, perhaps somewhat controversially, we cope just fine without them being on every service.

The Passenger Hosts on GN are essentially as they were before the name change; RPIs. I believe they are trained on how to make announcements and do assists etc but it doesn’t happen very often (especially not assists which are done by platform staff on GN unless there are extraordinary circumstances).

 

[HLE]

While there is still stock with direct brake application passcoms there is still a good argument for Guards being required to have sufficient knowledge to know whether bringing the train to a halt in that position is wise or not.

I very much doubt the newer guards up this way would have had any training on the above point. Their route knowledge is basic to say the least.

 

[gavin]

Series of 24 hour strikes announced for January as the long running dispute over guards continues

 

[tsr]

It's interesting to see that the TL Passenger Hosts are booked to "route learn". I don't know what this consists of, as yet, but I shall see if I can find out.

I very much doubt the newer guards up this way would have had any training on the above point. Their route knowledge is basic to say the least.

Not stopping the train in an unsuitable location is normally a fundamental topic discussed in Rules training. Route knowledge then expands upon this with information about tunnels, viaducts and also preferable evacuation points such as major level crossings and all stations on the line of route. I'd be surprised if any TOC was foregoing this for those staff performing the role of Guard.

Series of 24 hour strikes announced for January as the long running dispute over guards continues

Only one on Southern - 8th January.

Probably pretty pointless - I can think of much better things the RMT could be doing but there we are.