Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[AlterEgo]

There is NO lump sum. This is a 5 YEAR (backdated to last year) incorporating the annual pay review as well as major changes to t&c.

The next pay review is 2021

Nobody is walking away with a 29% lump sum in their next pay packet.

I see what you're saying. But it is true that drivers will be getting the backdated pay before Christmas, is it not? At least, that's my understanding.

 

[Clip]

"One British Rail v up to 25 different tocs, who all have a Managing Director, a Finance Dircetor, Operations Director, Customer Services Director, Fleet director as well as assistants for all of those, then you have route directors for each of the different routes each company runs, then there is all the head of departments for each group of employees, then you have numerous managers like driver standards managers, guards managers, station managers that is all for tocs, Then we have focs 4 or 5 of them who need who require Management at many different levels, and lets not forget the numerous and countless different infrastructure companies" Is that enough for you?

Are you saying that BR with all its separate regions didn't have most of these functions then?

Station managers now have a far bigger portfolio in most cases to look after than they ever did under BR too, so that's another reduction.

Let alone all the R&D that has now gone into the hands of others which strips out all those managers from the railway too.

Theres probably more that I cant think of right now that have had to take on extra duties with the thinning out of managers as a whole

 

[theironroad]

I see what you're saying. But it is true that drivers will be getting the backdated pay before Christmas, is it not? At least, that's my understanding.

This 5 year deal, although only just agreed, started in October 2016, ie 13 months ago. So yes there will be 13 months back pay. I don't work for southern, but if the same as our next pay date is 1 December, so if southern payroll get going then it should be payable for the 1/12, if not, this year the extra pay date is 29/12.

Our last backdated pay was a standard estimated lump sum so it could be paid quickly, then then the balance was paid the following month as they need time to collate the overtime etc.

 

[Kite159]

Well the ORR suggest that between Fab and May 48 disabled people didnt board a train they were expecting to http://orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/pr...ern-trains-leads-to-travel-assistance-changes but the solution appears to be to require them to book, not that this release states that.

Would that stat include when a disabled person is unable to board the service due to there physically being no space, when a train rolls in Full & Standing (even if platform staff/OBS were available)?

 

[Robertj21a]

As I thought, precisely zero facts.

At the time of Privatisation BR had ToUs with MDs & FDs, etc. There were more ToUs than there are TOCs, ergo there are now less of then than there were under BR. Nor, if you go back further were there less managers. My father worked at BR all his life, retiring in the 90s and there were many office buildings that no longer exist. Whole departments (e.g. Work Study) that no longer exist. There are also far less Station Managers than there used to be under BR. There are more driver managers, but that's because there are a lot more drivers. As for Route Directors (or Area Managers as some TOCs use), similar roles existed under BR and will always exist - one Ops or Commercial Director cannot control the whole country.

Unlike you, I have carried out an analysis of manager to staff ratio for some TOCs and it compared very favourably with not only the still publicly owned bits of the railway, but actually with many other industries as well. Also, I saw the changes first hand during privatisation and while there were some small increases in roles such as revenue analysis, there were much bigger cuts in Finance and HR. Since then change (both up and down) has largely been driven by increased services, government requirements and the use of new systems and the same factors would have affected BR, but each time a new franchise competition comes round management roles are scrutinised and savings made. I have twice run HQ departments and on both occasions the numbers were reduced, the first time substantially.

Freight companies are even leaner from what I've seen. Infrastructure companies generally don't just do rail work, so it would be impossible to compare. However, I would be very surprised if they had more managers than BR, simply because BR pretty much never made anybody redundant.

Well said. It's these silly sweeping statements that cause so much upset and confusion for others. Any supposed facts need to be verifiable.

 

[infobleep]

There is NO lump sum. This is a 5 YEAR (backdated to last year) incorporating the annual pay review as well as major changes to t&c.

The next pay review is 2021

Nobody is walking away with a 29% lump sum in their next pay packet.

I thought the back dated pay was being paid in one go and if so then that is a lump sum, regardless of how much is being paid going forward.

I don't know how much it will be but someone commented it will be a nice bonus before Christmas so it can't be a small amount.

My point was that XDM was implying less cancellations so I wondered whether drivers would want to work over time over Christmas and if they didn't would we see cancellations. After all drivers have agreed to run DOO in certain circumstances so there should be less cancellations!

If we have more cancellations because they have been paid more and they don't want to cover shifts GTR don't have enough staff to cover... then is that passengers friendly and better for passengers?

 

[Carlisle]

My father worked at BR all his life, retiring in the 90s and there were many office buildings that no longer exist. eg. Work Study) that no longer exist. .

True, but many folk that worked in those large offices eg tech support/ catering/cleaning/maintenance/,planning managers/ telephone enquiry operatives etc etc, the railway industry still has to pay a considerable sum for, its just that they don’t happen to employ them directly anymore.

 

[WatcherZero]

Would that stat include when a disabled person is unable to board the service due to there physically being no space, when a train rolls in Full & Standing (even if platform staff/OBS were available)?

Its all the times they were unable to complete their journey by rail due to lack of staff assistance and had to be put in a taxi. ORR did intensive monitoring of their performance with driver only trains against their staffing strategy for keeping accessibility. ORR said it found several locations where the strategy didnt meet expected performance and that the fiirm was adressing it by hiring a dedicated accessibility shift co-ordinator and reviewing the ramp training of agency temps.

 

[BestWestern]

True, but many folk that worked in those large offices eg tech support/ catering/cleaning/maintenance/,planning managers/ telephone enquiry operatives etc etc, the railway industry still has to pay a considerable sum for, its just that they don’t happen to employ them directly anymore.

And many of those people now earn pittance, whilst their agencies take a huge slice of the inflated total cost charged to the railway.

The creeping cancer of doing away with proper employees and replacing them with the dreaded agency staff is another regretful milestone in the sad decay of decent standards in the privatisation era. I pass through agency-manned gatelines frequently, and it is painfully obvious that many of these people have little idea of the job they're supposed to be doing, and appear to be provided simply for the purpose of keeping up appearances. Equally there are many stories of poor treatment from staff employed by catering contractors or cleaning companies, the latter of which seems to change hands and uniforms with alarming frequency. All of these people are paid little, treated like the disposable assets that they have become, and are a painful illustration of how much better things could be.

 

[LowLevel]

The whole agency/sub contractor thing stinks. I know of a TOC where at station A they employ their on board cleaners in house, on a good salary, with a decent pension, travel facilities and so on.

At station B they use A n Other big national contractor who pay peanuts and they get nothing on the side.

Same as the caterers - some functions use in house staff. The others, at times working on the same trains, use contractors being paid again bugger all with rubbish conditions. It's not even remotely fair. At least back in the day even the lowliest cleaner (and I know one or two that I have survived and make a decent fist out of keeping it quiet that they can't hardly write a sentence) was a railway employee with the benefits that entailed..

 

[Kite159]

The whole agency/sub contractor thing stinks. I know of a TOC where at station A they employ their on board cleaners in house, on a good salary, with a decent pension, travel facilities and so on.

At station B they use A n Other big national contractor who pay peanuts and they get nothing on the side.

Same as the caterers - some functions use in house staff. The others, at times working on the same trains, use contractors being paid again bugger all with rubbish conditions. It's not even remotely fair. At least back in the day even the lowliest cleaner (and I know one or two that I have survived and make a decent fist out of keeping it quiet that they can't hardly write a sentence) was a railway employee with the benefits that entailed..

True, some of the contractors get away with rubbish T&Cs, paying min wage etc, then they write you a lovely letter when min wage goes up which tries to say it is their idea of giving you a pay rise rather than being forced to by the government. Some contractors are better than others at treating their employees, sometimes it's down to local sites and local management on how well the staff are treated (and what the contract the contractor has with the company, as some companies will go for the cheapest option, others will go for the "better value" option.

[From someone who works for one of said contractors]

 

[jon0844]

Having seen the hard work from Churchill cleaners both at King's Cross and at stations up and down the GN route, I hope they're paid well and get some perks - because they do a great job given how messy the general public can be.

Yes you see dirty trains going out at times, but there's only so much they can do. By and large, they do a fantastic job and if they ever didn't work you'd soon see how bad things would be.

 

[Skimble19]

Having seen the hard work from Churchill cleaners both at King's Cross and at stations up and down the GN route, I hope they're paid well and get some perks - because they do a great job given how messy the general public can be.

Yes you see dirty trains going out at times, but there's only so much they can do. By and large, they do a fantastic job and if they ever didn't work you'd soon see how bad things would be.

Have to completely agree here, the Turnaround cleaners in particular do a brilliant job considering how few of them there are and their limited resources. If trains go out that aren’t cleaned it’s nearly always due to how few of them are on duty at any one time and the fact they get as little as a few minutes to do an 8 car train by themselves sometimes..!

 

[whhistle]

Might have been mentioned before but what are the Drivers view on DOO?
Surely they shouldn't really care? And perhaps even want DOO as they'd then be able to say they want more pay?

 

[HH]

True, but many folk that worked in those large offices eg tech support/ catering/cleaning/maintenance/,planning managers/ telephone enquiry operatives etc etc, the railway industry still has to pay a considerable sum for, its just that they don’t happen to employ them directly anymore.

Tech support is actually an area that has generally increased, even though much of it is done by third parties. Planning managers? A lot of catering and cleaning (not all by any means) is done by third parties now, but these people don't have offices. Much maintenance was done by third parties under BR too. Probably more done today, but again those people don't fill offices.

 

[pompeyfan]

A lot of drivers would prefer a tailgunner if the choice is there, many wouldn’t object to doing the doors if the camera quality was sufficient, but they want someone they can rely on if needed.

 

[HH]

The whole agency/sub contractor thing stinks. I know of a TOC where at station A they employ their on board cleaners in house, on a good salary, with a decent pension, travel facilities and so on.

At station B they use A n Other big national contractor who pay peanuts and they get nothing on the side.

Same as the caterers - some functions use in house staff. The others, at times working on the same trains, use contractors being paid again bugger all with rubbish conditions. It's not even remotely fair. At least back in the day even the lowliest cleaner (and I know one or two that I have survived and make a decent fist out of keeping it quiet that they can't hardly write a sentence) was a railway employee with the benefits that entailed..

These jobs are not specialist railway jobs and the railways generally do a poor job of running them. Therefore there is a temptation to outsource them, especially, as you rightly say, third party contractors pay them much less. My own view is that the only way round this is that no-one should be paid below a proper living wage (in law). If that means the rest of us have to pay more for services then that seems money well spent.

 

[Moonshot]

A lot of drivers would prefer a tailgunner if the choice is there, many wouldn’t object to doing the doors if the camera quality was sufficient, but they want someone they can rely on if needed.

This is absolutely correct......so lets be honest here .....RMT are miffed because their members are having a part of the current job removed from their responsibility. The role is changing due to the advent of technology.

 

[pompeyfan]

This is absolutely correct......so lets be honest here .....RMT are miffed because their members are having a part of the current job removed from their responsibility. The role is changing due to the advent of technology.

Do you enjoy doing the doors? I bet it’s nice when you can hold a local door for a runner, or even just break the monotony of patrolling the train. I’d be disappointed if the door duty was taken away from me. I also genuinely think it’s safer to have a human actively watching the doors and the platform, but obviously that argument is dead in the water.

 

[Moonshot]

Do you enjoy doing the doors? I bet it’s nice when you can hold a local door for a runner, or even just break the monotony of patrolling the train. I’d be disappointed if the door duty was taken away from me. I also genuinely think it’s safer to have a human actively watching the doors and the platform, but obviously that argument is dead in the water.

I enjoy the role , but the doors are not a favourite....I do get a lot of staisfaction however when I get my pay slip and see a decent figure in the commission column.....a figure which no doubt be higher if door duty didnt get in the way of me ensuring everyone had a ticket. You are correct about the arguement being dead in the water though.

 

[tsr]

I have probably saved my TOC far more money through preventing incidents during dispatch than I'd ever have made through revenue takings.

Commission can be absolutely negligible (especially for those on metro / suburban routes, who are likely to be affected by job role changes) and it is not a good incentive to bring into discussion of this dispute. Commission payment actually changed with Southern conductors being moved to OBS roles anyway - and not always in their favour.

 

[Moonshot]

I have probably saved my TOC far more money through preventing incidents during dispatch than I'd ever have made through revenue takings.

Commission can be absolutely negligible (especially for those on metro / suburban routes, who are likely to be affected by job role changes) and it is not a good incentive to bring into discussion of this dispute. Commission payment actually changed with Southern conductors being moved to OBS roles anyway - and not always in their favour.

TOCS would argue that having a train cancelled through lack of a guard costs revenue. I would disagree about commission incentive.....if that was removed then I daresay the incentive to actually patrol the train disappears as well.

 

[tsr]

TOCS would argue that having a train cancelled through lack of a guard costs revenue. I would disagree about commission incentive.....if that was removed then I daresay the incentive to actually patrol the train disappears as well.

It does depend how many trains are affected by "lack of a guard". Often this is a very small percentage of cancellations, and in any case the train will in fact actually be waiting a while for a guard, rather than outright cancelled - but in either case, this is often due to disruption or a rostering error. In the former case (disruption), the bill may well be picked up by someone else anyway - such as Network Rail.

As for patrolling a train, this should not be dictated by revenue - there are many other benefits for both staff and passengers if a train is patrolled properly, and a good proportion of guards around the country do manage to patrol trains without carrying out revenue duties. This includes the more proactive guards on most SWR metro area trains. Good patrolling tends to result in problems being spotted earlier (either technical, with the train, or in terms of antisocial behaviour / crime and so on), which makes everyone's lives easier and usually reduces delays. Those staff who never walk through trains are also likely to be those who are laziest when it comes to selling tickets.

It's also worth pointing out that a large number of the current Southern OBSs started out without commercial training, and were left for weeks or months with only train patrolling and customer care to attend to. (Some didn't manage that, and were often swiftly removed... but most ended up using the experience in lieu of formal training, which worked to a degree for some staff and not for others.) The point being that at least one TOC in recent history has taken safety-critical duties, especially dispatch, from their onboard staff - and yet it has felt it to be worthwhile to still pay some of them to be on the train without taking any money.

 

[Moonshot]

It does depend how many trains are affected by "lack of a guard". Often this is a very small percentage of cancellations, and in any case the train will in fact actually be waiting a while for a guard, rather than outright cancelled - but in either case, this is often due to disruption or a rostering error. In the former case (disruption), the bill may well be picked up by someone else anyway - such as Network Rail.

As for patrolling a train, this should not be dictated by revenue - there are many other benefits for both staff and passengers if a train is patrolled properly, and a good proportion of guards around the country do manage to patrol trains without carrying out revenue duties. This includes the more proactive guards on most SWR metro area trains. Good patrolling tends to result in problems being spotted earlier (either technical, with the train, or in terms of antisocial behaviour / crime and so on), which makes everyone's lives easier and usually reduces delays. Those staff who never walk through trains are also likely to be those who are laziest when it comes to selling tickets.

It's also worth pointing out that a large number of the current Southern OBSs started out without commercial training, and were left for weeks or months with only train patrolling and customer care to attend to. (Some didn't manage that, and were often swiftly removed... but most ended up using the experience in lieu of formal training, which worked to a degree for some staff and not for others.) The point being that at least one TOC in recent history has taken safety-critical duties, especially dispatch, from their onboard staff - and yet it has felt it to be worthwhile to still pay some of them to be on the train without taking any money.

Which then comes back to the point of having staff on board in a more dynamic customer facing role.....which has been backed up by research amongst passengers who value staff prescence on board. This appears to be the way my TOC ( Northern ) wants to go.....which in effect will weed out those who never walk through trains.

 

[Carlisle]

Tech support is actually an area that has generally increased, even though much of it is done by third parties. Planning managers? A lot of catering and cleaning (not all by any means) is done by third parties now, but these people don't have offices. Much maintenance was done by third parties under BR too. Probably more done today, but again those people don't fill offices.

Sorry I meant the guys running those various sections rather than most of the regular workers.
There doesn’t seem to be any agreed best practice or consensus on whether to outsource or not as only a few years ago I recall the boss of C2C extolling the virtues of taking cleaning etc back in house and how standards had improved as a result.

 

[the sniper]

TOCS would argue that having a train cancelled through lack of a guard costs revenue. I would disagree about commission incentive.....if that was removed then I daresay the incentive to actually patrol the train disappears as well.

Will you be a lazy OBS when they remove the commission then?

How many TOCs paid commission to Assistant/Travelling Ticket Examiners?

 

[jon0844]

Sorry I meant the guys running those various sections rather than most of the regular workers.
There doesn’t seem to be any agreed best practice on whether to outsource or not as only a few years ago I recall the boss of C2C extolling the virtues of taking cleaning etc back in house and how standards had improved as a result.

Call centres outsourced to India .. now being brought back by many companies because of problems (security/hacks, unpopular etc).

My wife works for the council housing department. It was outsourced to save money, but is now being brought back in house.

There are many other examples all over the place.

You'd think all these businesses would learn that outsourcing introduces lots of potential problems, especially if you outsource to one of the huge firms that will promise the world then screw you over, and as a much smaller business in comparison, you have little power to do much. And they'll nearly always get one over your legal team, so the contracts will often be far more beneficial for them - especially if you one day say enough is enough and you want rid.

I do wish outsourcing was something businesses just stopped doing, unless it's for very specialised roles where it wouldn't make sense to hire staff for a limited time.

 

[HH]

Hmm the same zero facts then!

Pick on one line, presumably because you have no answer to the rest. BR did make a number of redundancies in the run up to privatisation, because it was deeply in the red. BR redundancy terms were very favourable, I quote from Hansard, "Since January 1993, and up to 26 March 1994, 13,114 staff have either left, or are expected to leave British Rail at a cost of approximately £174 million in 1993 and £129 million in 1994." That's about £23k a head, which in those days would have been around twice the average annual salary (drivers, for instance, were on £12k before their restructuring). Prior to that BR was similar to the civil service, your job might disappear, but they'd find you a new one - it happened to my father four times!

 

[Sprinter153]

Will you be a lazy OBS when they remove the commission then?

How many TOCs paid commission to Assistant/Travelling Ticket Examiners?

ATEs on GWR earn more commission (in terms of percentage of ticket sales) than Conductors and Train Managers.

 

[the sniper]

ATEs on GWR earn more commission (in terms of percentage of ticket sales) than Conductors and Train Managers.

Like I say, I'd be interested to know how many TOCs do this.