The driver's view: 'The memory of a rail suicide never leaves you'

[bramling]

Indeed - however it is ( or should) be offered. That might only be a leaflet with the carecall number on it. No one is forced to undergo any counselling. One of my friends explained how he had only taken up the offer once or twice after particularly unpleasant situations involving children. He is a fireman.

he made a valuable point that we while are all big hard men and don't need to talk to people about namby pamby things like feelings sometimes you do and if you don't it will only get worse. Most importantly there is no shame in admitting that and that he found his colleagues were very supportive and happy to explain how it had helped them when he opened up to them about asking for that help.

I've been to well into double figures numbers of fatalities, never once been offered counselling.

Maybe I'm lucky as to be honest it doesn't really affect me that much at all, the hype associated with the incident can get the blood pumping a bit faster, but that's about all. I must say though that with every one I go to I get less sympathetic to those that choose to do it.

 

[Bromley boy]

I've been to well into double figures numbers of fatalities, never once been offered counselling.

Maybe I'm lucky as to be honest it doesn't really affect me that much at all, the hype associated with the incident can get the blood pumping a bit faster, but that's about all. I must say though that with every one I go to I get less sympathetic to those that choose to do it.

Obviously I don’t know where you work (I assume NR?) but I must say that strikes me as very poor.

There is a well established counselling/care programme for drivers who are involved in fatalities.

Whether they wish to avail themselves or it is down to the individual, but the important thing is that the option is there.

 

[bramling]

Obviously I don’t know where you work (I assume NR?) but I must say that strikes me as very poor.

There is a well established counselling/care programme for drivers who are involved in fatalities.

Whether they wish to avail themselves or it is down to the individual, but the important thing is that the option is there.

It does strike me that, in places at least, the support offered after fatalities is all geared around the driver, and no one else. This includes station staff and other response staff, who often get offered nothing - although I agree that the support is, just about, there if one wishes to go looking for it.

 

[Bromley boy]

It does strike me that, in places at least, the support offered after fatalities is all geared around the driver, and no one else. This includes station staff and other response staff, who often get offered nothing - although I agree that the support is, just about, there if one wishes to go looking for it.

That’s true - and also very poor in my view.

Particularly as, in some circumstances, the event can be more graphic from the perspective of the platform staff than that of the driver.

 

[Chris M]

That’s true - and also very poor in my view.

Particularly as, in some circumstances, the event can be more graphic from the perspective of the platform staff than that of the driver.

And not just platform staff.
I heard of one incident where a man purchased a hot drink from a kiosk on the platform and then moments later stepped out in front of an express passing through, in full view of the person who had just served them. Whether this was a suicide or not I don't know, but it was certainly a fatality and certainly incredibly shocking for the person who witnessed it, who I imagine is on little better than minimum wage and most definitely did not sign up to deal with fatalities. What support they were offered I don't know, but they (and all the others who witnessed it) should have access to the same standard of counselling as the driver presumably (and hopefully) did.

 

[Dieseldriver]

And not just platform staff.
I heard of one incident where a man purchased a hot drink from a kiosk on the platform and then moments later stepped out in front of an express passing through, in full view of the person who had just served them. Whether this was a suicide or not I don't know, but it was certainly a fatality and certainly incredibly shocking for the person who witnessed it, who I imagine is on little better than minimum wage and most definitely did not sign up to deal with fatalities. What support they were offered I don't know, but they (and all the others who witnessed it) should have access to the same standard of counselling as the driver presumably (and hopefully) did.

Sorry I'm confused, that's twice someone has brought people's wage into this. I fail to see what relevance it is. For the avoidance of doubt, Train Drivers wages have absolutely nothing to do with the subject of fatalities.

 

[Eccles1983]

A big point being missed here is everyone dealing with the aftermath is not affected in the same way as the person who was a factor in the death.

I in a previous life observed a lot of life expired people, through old age, suicide, violent force, road and rail deaths. Unpleasant but I didnt see the incident and played no part in the event.

A train driver although completely blameless is a factor in the death by virtue of observing the event, and even though nothing can be done it doesnt stop the little voice in the head saying "what if"?

Added to the fact that they will be made to relive the event at least twice (police and then coroners court) means that unless you have been a driver involved in the death of someone then frankly the one upmanship that appears to be creeping in here is futile.

 

[Greaseball3220]

There seems to be lots of these incidents between London Paddington and Slough, seemingly more so than other parts of the network.

 

[bramling]

A big point being missed here is everyone dealing with the aftermath is not affected in the same way as the person who was a factor in the death.

I in a previous life observed a lot of life expired people, through old age, suicide, violent force, road and rail deaths. Unpleasant but I didnt see the incident and played no part in the event.

A train driver although completely blameless is a factor in the death by virtue of observing the event, and even though nothing can be done it doesnt stop the little voice in the head saying "what if"?

Added to the fact that they will be made to relive the event at least twice (police and then coroners court) means that unless you have been a driver involved in the death of someone then frankly the one upmanship that appears to be creeping in here is futile.

No one is saying the driver shouldn’t get support, however the point stands that others often seem to get something varying between nothing and naff all.

I can also think of one particular incident where a manager happened to be driving with the rostered driver on the secondman’s seat, with the impact fairly and squarely on the left side of the cab. The manager was back to work the next day, no one batting an eyelid, whilst the rostered driver was off the trains for about 6 months.

 

[D365]

There seems to be lots of these incidents between London Paddington and Slough, seemingly more so than other parts of the network.

Have you been up to date with the West Coast lately?

 

[Dieseldriver]

I can also think of one particular incident where a manager happened to be driving with the rostered driver on the secondman’s seat, with the impact fairly and squarely on the left side of the cab. The manager was back to work the next day, no one batting an eyelid, whilst the rostered driver was off the trains for about 6 months.

Difference being that the manager goes back to his office environment.
The Driver goes back to his safety critical role, driving trains over the same stretch of line as the incident on his own in the cab alone with his thoughts. I'm not saying that particular case isn't unusual, however, i think a lot of people don't realise that one of the issues for Drivers after a fatality is having to relive the moment over and over again each time they drive over the section of route where the incident occurs. They also have to cope with the shift work which doesn't help (having the alarm set for 3AM while you're tossing and turning in bed trying to sleep isn't the best situation for a Train Driver) and issues of fatigue and non fitness for work will come into it.
These traumatic and life changing incidents affect Drivers in many personal ways but people forget, it also temporarily affects their ability to perform the Driving role safely and reliably.
I've not had a fatality so far, I have had near misses, I have come uncomfortably close on a few occasions and I have even seen the aftermath of a fatality (the scene didn't leave much to the imagination).
But having the scenario where someone steps out in front of me at linespeed, brake in emergency, frantically blowing the horn willing them to move, watching the person get closer until the loud bang and shaking of the impact knowing that the person I'd locked eyes on is now horrifically dead as a result of being hit by the Train that I was driving and I was personally responsible for? I've never got that far as in my near misses the people have always got out of the way, I hope to God it stays that way because as far as I'm concerned, the effects of such an incident don't bear thinking about.

 

[SPADTrap]

No one is saying the driver shouldn’t get support, however the point stands that others often seem to get something varying between nothing and naff all.

I can also think of one particular incident where a manager happened to be driving with the rostered driver on the secondman’s seat, with the impact fairly and squarely on the left side of the cab. The manager was back to work the next day, no one batting an eyelid, whilst the rostered driver was off the trains for about 6 months.

I can think of an incident where a driver was route learning at the front and the set was involved in a fatality. They weren't interested in the accompanying driver either.

 

[axlecounter]

From speaking to friends in the emergency services (police/fire) that is exactly what happens. As part of their employer responsibility/ duty of care to their employees they are offered support every time they deal with a traumatic incident. That doesn't mean a sit down with a counselor but may mean been offered the internal version of the Samartians.

This luckily is becoming more and more standard. In the past people in the emergency services were quite left alone with their mind, exactly with that reason quoted on here “they knew what they were signing for”. Fortunately times change and many studies have shown how devastating these kind of experiences can be if they’re not taken care of.
What is also (finally) becoming common is that even people not directly involved in the incident (passers-by,...) are offered some kind of support.
A main point remains though that even if everyone reacts in a different manner and everyone might be as traumatised as a driver/officer/samaritan/..., these, who are directly involved, generally feel a big sense of responsability (which may even be part of their work - not the drivers’ case) over what happened and what they could have done to avoid the death of someone, that normally is not part of the traumatic experience of someone who was just standing there.

OT: One thing which I believe the railways are better than emergency services is the workload. I perfectly understand why we have quite strict rules about train driving hours, shift times,...and as a driver I think they’re absolutely necessary. Then I meet this friend at 4am who works in the emergency room and comes straight from a 12hours shift where he has seen anything and everything without a proper break... something must be wrong in there!

 

[Chris M]

Sorry I'm confused, that's twice someone has brought people's wage into this. I fail to see what relevance it is.

In the case of the incident I was reffering to, it was a description of the type of job rather than a literal reference to remuneration received.

For the avoidance of doubt, Train Drivers wages have absolutely nothing to do with the subject of fatalities.

I agree, and have never said otherwise. My point was that other people should have access to support of the same quality as drivers do, not that drivers get too much or anything of that nature.

 

[BestWestern]

A particularly sad one this evening, in the Lostwithiel area. Obviously very disruptive for those travelling home for Christmas, a few very heavy delays. As ever a very difficult situation, particularly on this occasion, both for staff and affected passengers.

 

[PHILIPE]

A particularly sad one this evening, in the Lostwithiel area. Obviously very disruptive for those travelling home for Christmas, a few very heavy delays. As ever a very difficult situation, particularly on this occasion, both for staff and affected passengers.

2C49 1605 Exeter to Penzance was the rain onvolved, 150202

 

[InOban]

And there were two separate incidents in Scotland on Saturday. So sad.

 

[TrenHotel]

Thank you to those who have posted their experiences in this thread.

I experienced this as a passenger about 12 years ago - coming home from from work, on a Networker train pulling into Maze Hill station on a Monday evening. The train was slowing as we came into the station, then there was a bump and a sudden stop. The driver came on within about 60 seconds to explain what had happened.

I remember crossing over the station footbridge and seeing a foot sticking out from under the train. I'm sure I saw it twitch. I heard later on that the guy had survived, but lost a leg. I abandoned my journey home and went to the pub, where I knew I could get what I'd seen off my chest.

But will really stay with me was the look on the poor driver's face - never seen anyone look so pale and shocked before, and I hope I never have to again. There were plenty of passengers asking him if he was okay, and it was obvious his training had kicked in, but I'll never forget how haunted he looked.

 

[Steve Harris]

Unfortunatly another fatility today near Biggleswade.

As a gay man who has suffered from mental health issues for far to long i care to remember im actually shocked im still here to read about the people who didnt get or seek the help they needed.

You may ask why have i posted?

2 things really.

I had such a bad day yesterday that the guy mentioned above could of been me.

And

I have been reading this thread for some time and im quiet shocked by the amount of ignorant people out there who just dont understand that when someone gets so depressed and lost, you loose all normal rational thinking. I would say its akin to the red mist descending and you become so focused in ending the pain you dont think or care about anyone or anything else!

Hopefully this post will educate and help people understand how thinks work when you end up going to dark places which frankly your mind should never go to.

And yes im having counselling. Paid for by me, as 6 sessions on the NHS is just merely a drop in the occean and wouldnt even scratch the surface.

Its about time society got a grip and helped the people who suffer with illnes that cant be seen.

Only then we will hopefully see a reduction in suicides. The ongoing ad campaign is a start. But it is just that, a start.

So far im glad i havent inflicted a horrendous sight on railway staff, as to be honest it must be a awful thing to witness. And my heart does go out to the people who have witnessed such tragedies.

 

[johnr57]

Unfortunatly another fatility today near Biggleswade.

As a gay man who has suffered from mental health issues for far to long i care to remember im actually shocked im still here to read about the people who didnt get or seek the help they needed.

You may ask why have i posted?

2 things really.

I had such a bad day yesterday that the guy mentioned above could of been me.

And

I have been reading this thread for some time and im quiet shocked by the amount of ignorant people out there who just dont understand that when someone gets so depressed and lost, you loose all normal rational thinking. I would say its akin to the red mist descending and you become so focused in ending the pain you dont think or care about anyone or anything else!

Hopefully this post will educate and help people understand how thinks work when you end up going to dark places which frankly your mind should never go to.

And yes im having counselling. Paid for by me, as 6 sessions on the NHS is just merely a drop in the occean and wouldnt even scratch the surface.

Its about time society got a grip and helped the people who suffer with illnes that cant be seen.

Only then we will hopefully see a reduction in suicides. The ongoing ad campaign is a start. But it is just that, a start.

So far im glad i havent inflicted a horrendous sight on railway staff, as to be honest it must be a awful thing to witness. And my heart does go out to the people who have witnessed such tragedies.

Steve - if there was a "like" id click it many times.

been there too - you have all my best wishes and wish you well for the future

john

 

[Bromley boy]

And yes im having counselling. Paid for by me, as 6 sessions on the NHS is just merely a drop in the occean and wouldnt even scratch the surface.

Sorry to hear that and it's great you are taking steps to deal with things - it shouldn't have to be paid for by you - but nevertheles it's great you are getting help. Sadly I suspect many who go over the edge into suicidal actions are unable to do so, for whatever reason.

There should be better provision for mental health issues in the uk, particularly for men, as had been mentioned upthread.

 

[johnr57]

Sorry to hear that and it's great you are taking steps to deal with things - it shouldn't have to be paid for by you - but nevertheles it's great you are getting help. Sadly I suspect many who go over the edge into suicidal actions are unable to do so, for whatever reason.

There should be better provision for mental health issues in the uk, particularly for men, as had been mentioned upthread.

hear hear

 

[Darkinsider]

deleted

 

[Steve Harris]

Sorry to hear that and it's great you are taking steps to deal with things - it shouldn't have to be paid for by you - but nevertheles it's great you are getting help. Sadly I suspect many who go over the edge into suicidal actions are unable to do so, for whatever reason.

There should be better provision for mental health issues in the uk, particularly for men, as had been mentioned upthread.

I would just like to point out i dont work on the railway, although members of my family once did.

Thank you for your kind words gentlemen however my fear is i need more than counselling Counselling helps you take stock but doesnt necessarily give you the tools to deal with situations which make you sad and depressed.

As for family members seeing drivers as murderers. I think that is down to emotion of losing a loved one.

Some people may or may not know that people can be good at hiding whats going on inside. A bit like a swan, majestic and serene when underneath the legs are going like f...

Hence family members either dont spot suttle signs or they are to wrapped up or busy in there own lives and then need to blame someone else for there own failings.

 

[221129]

Interested in forum member's viewes. Some TOC's require drivers to wear name badges. Some new TOC's have included full forename + Surname badges. Should drivers be allowed to use allias names and if this is the case what is the point / wearing a name that could not be associated with an incident. I say this as i have heard some drivers have been accused of murderers by relatives in coroners courts, if the driver does not appear then being easily identified by grieving relatives whilst going about their duties.

This is the thing, at my TOC its only managers that have their full name on their name badge and I for one would never wear my full name on my badge. For very similar reasons.

 

[12guard4]

I don't know what TOC has front line staff wearing name badges with full names on. I have only ever encountered this with managers.

I think it is a very small minority of people who would see a driver as a murderer. I also do think this is just the anger and distress of losing a loved one though.

 

[bramling]

I don't know what TOC has front line staff wearing name badges with full names on. I have only ever encountered this with managers.

I think it is a very small minority of people who would see a driver as a murderer. I also do think this is just the anger and distress of losing a loved one though.

There are certainly TOCs where I have seen guards wearing full names. London Underground does too for most operational staff.

One benefit of a full name on name badge is actually to allow other staff or emergency services to identify each other during incidents. It saves a hell of a lot of time wasted with “who are you?” issues. Especially on the modern railway where staff often don’t know each other, and things like distinguishing hats are rarely worn.

 

[12guard4]

There are certainly TOCs where I have seen guards wearing full names. London Underground does too for most operational staff.

One benefit of a full name on name badge is actually to allow other staff or emergency services to identify each other during incidents. It saves a hell of a lot of time wasted with “who are you?” issues. Especially on the modern railway where staff often don’t know each other, and things like distinguishing hats are rarely worn.

In a world of social media full names can lead to alot of issues with someone finding an individual online. I don't wear a name badge at all, although I wouldn't mind wearing my first name. When incidents occur I think a uniform is sufficient in identifying other members of staff and if you really need to know somebodies full name an ID card could be produced.

 

[bramling]

In a world of social media full names can lead to alot of issues with someone finding an individual online. I don't wear a name badge at all, although I wouldn't mind wearing my first name. When incidents occur I think a uniform is sufficient in identifying other members of staff and if you really need to know somebodies full name an ID card could be produced.

I tend to agree with this. Personally, I "dress down" when attending an incident - to the extent that I wear my own coat, which I can do up to completely not be visible to punters as staff if I need to get through a crowd quickly, but can undo to reveal shirt and tie to staff. I prefer not to wear a name-badge when passenger-facing, but I will put it on at an incident if required, as it also includes my grade. For incidents which involve the emergency services I may wear a hat.

I don't go down the road of turning up dressed like a Christmas tree, and experience tells me I'm right to be suspicious of people who turn up in immaculately clean orange coats!

I think with increasing social media, full names on name badges will gradually become a thing of the past -- although for me personally this doesn't bother me as I don't do social media!

 

[Mathew S]

I'm genuinely surprised - and more than a little shocked - that it seems many staff feel so threatened by the travelling public that they're trying to hide their identity, or even that they are staff at all.
As someone who works in the media, my general approach is that transparency and openness are almost always the best approach; if only for the sake of honesty and enabling greater public understanding. Though obviously that shouldn't be at the expense of anyone's personal safety.
Is there a prevailing view amongst staff that the risk is so high as has been mentioned? Are things really that bad?