Do WCML stations have a worse service under VTWC?

[DenmarkRail]

I am just watching a video, of trains in Stafford in 2003... There are VT trains to Glasgow, Preston.

Now days, Stafford virtually gets 1 VT train per hour in each direction.

So, why has virgin tried cut the intermediate stations from their routes?

Also I notice much longer trains back in 2003, when we are now stuck with mostly 9 car 390s

 

[yorkie]

So, why has virgin tried cut the intermediate stations from their routes?

You misunderstand how franchising works. The DfT specifies the requirements of the timetable such as minimum service provision and maximum journey times.

 

[Mathew S]

Crewe also receives fewer fast services, as do Carstairs, Oxenholme, Penrith, and arguably Bolton, and Liverpool.

However that overlooks the LNR services from Liverpool and Crewe south and the TPE services from Manchester/Wigan/Liverpool(soon) north. Which, I would say, are more comparable both with the speed and level of comfort of pre 221/390 operations.

That said, I'll take Virgin's outstanding customer service, and the comparative luxury of the Pendolino and Voyagers any day, even if it means a few fewer services or changing trains to complete my journey.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Liverpool trains, which also serve Stafford, are nearly all 11-car. In 2003 they were all 9-car.
Birmingham-Scotland was sometimes 10-car (double Voyagers), but mostly 5-car.
The Virgin VHF timetable from 2008 was specifically designed for fast journey times to key cities.
That's when trains started missing out Rugby, Nuneaton and Crewe, except early and late.
Stafford didn't lose significantly, but the Birmingham-Scotland did skip Stafford.
The extra Birmingham-Liverpool is supposed to compensate, so you have 3tph to Liverpool and 2tph to Manchester, but none to Preston and beyond.
Plus the "fast" Euston 350 service run by LM/WM.
The new London-Blackpool VT service (3 trains a day from May) will call at Stafford I think, maybe also the GNWR service when it comes.
Apart from these, we're still waiting for the extra trains promised by the Norton Bridge upgrade.

 

[DenmarkRail]

I didn’t realise about the Blackpool trains. That’s good news. I know GNWR isn’t calling at Stafford though.

 

[Mathew S]

Apart from these, we're still waiting for the extra trains promised by the Norton Bridge upgrade.

Am I right in thinking that this is Network Rail refusing to release extra paths? I think I remember something about wanting to leave space for HS2 engineering/spoil trains.
Though I could be completely wrong

 

[Bletchleyite]

Remember that in 2003 CrossCountry was VT, now it isn't. I don't think the stopping pattern is much different.

 

[Ianno87]

I am just watching a video, of trains in Stafford in 2003... There are VT trains to Glasgow, Preston.

Now days, Stafford virtually gets 1 VT train per hour in each direction.

So, why has virgin tried cut the intermediate stations from their routes?

Also I notice much longer trains back in 2003, when we are now stuck with mostly 9 car 390s

It was the December 2008 timetable recast specified by DfT. It's how you get (for example) 3 trains an hour from Manchester-Euston in 2 hrs 7 minutes, and stretching the Pendolino fleet to get 9 off peak departures from Euston every hour (in 2003 it was c. 5-6 or so).

Dropping stops (or standardising them in the same hourly trains in the case of Stafford) gives both line capacity for extra trains and means the same fleet of trains can cover more services by making faster round trips.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Am I right in thinking that this is Network Rail refusing to release extra paths? I think I remember something about wanting to leave space for HS2 engineering/spoil trains.
Though I could be completely wrong

Well, Network Rail has done its bit at Norton Bridge, but the DfT/TOCs haven't.
Virgin is marking time until the current franchise ends next year, and there is no new stock to deploy (the new Blackpool service is off-peak).
LNR has ordered new trains but doesn't seem to be planning to operate any new routes/services in its franchise.
The HS2 project will reduce capacity at Euston which makes things harder, but that shouldn't prevent additional trains on the Birmingham axis.
So for now, the extra capacity is just reducing congestion and improving WCML performance (not to be sneezed at), but no new trains.

 

[Mathew S]

Well, Network Rail has done its bit at Norton Bridge, but the DfT/TOCs haven't.
Virgin is marking time until the current franchise ends next year, and there is no new stock to deploy (the new Blackpool service is off-peak).
LNR has ordered new trains but doesn't seem to be planning to operate any new routes/services in its franchise.
The HS2 project will reduce capacity at Euston which makes things harder, but that shouldn't prevent additional trains on the Birmingham axis.
So for now, the extra capacity is just reducing congestion and improving WCML performance (not to be sneezed at), but no new trains.

Thanks for that, good to know.
It is interesting that a number of southbound VTWC services have a timetabled 15 minute (ish) stop at WVH now. When I asked I was told it was due to waiting for a path south of BHM due to the faster journey times through Stafford. Seems mental to me, but then so does a lot of railway timetabling.

 

[Confused147]

Stafford should have regular services towards Preston and Glasgow/Edinburgh. Don't understand why the need for three trains per hour to Liverpool. Back in the wonderful 1980s and 1990s Stafford along with all the other major WCML stations was made up from a mix of Liverpool/Preston/Manchester & Holyheads.

 

[DenmarkRail]

I’d rather have the VT services north alternate between Liverpool and Manchester rather than hourly to Liverpool

 

[Ianno87]

Stafford should have regular services towards Preston and Glasgow/Edinburgh. Don't understand why the need for three trains per hour to Liverpool. Back in the wonderful 1980s and 1990s Stafford along with all the other major WCML stations was made up from a mix of Liverpool/Preston/Manchester & Holyheads.

It's dead easy to change at Crewe off those Liverpool trains. Is there a great market between Stafford, Preston and Scotland that is going untapped by lack of a direct service?

 

[DenmarkRail]

It's dead easy to change at Crewe off those Liverpool trains. Is there a great market between Stafford, Preston and Scotland that is going untapped by lack of a direct service?

Yeah, but do people want to change at Crewe?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Watford Junction now has only an hourly Birmingham service - bar a few odd calls early and late.

Nuneaton lost the all day service Euston to Liverpool ..(but the Trent Valley semi picked up the slack - yes - controversial I know)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, but do people want to change at Crewe?

Nobody wants to change anywhere, but a railway system doesn't work without changes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks for that, good to know.
It is interesting that a number of southbound VTWC services have a timetabled 15 minute (ish) stop at WVH now. When I asked I was told it was due to waiting for a path south of BHM due to the faster journey times through Stafford. Seems mental to me, but then so does a lot of railway timetabling.

The wait at Wolverhampton is because of joining up what was two separate services, Scotland-Birmingham and Birmingham-Euston, within their original paths.
It also gives a useful breather for recovery on trains which are often disrupted.
You can change at WVH and pick up an overtaking XC or WM service to reach New St earlier.

There is also a wait northbound, at New St.
Skipping Stafford was before all this, they weren't accelerated just to waste time at WVH.
Pathing through Norton Bridge/Stafford also comes into it. All the paths were established before the Norton Bridge upgrade.
The Shrewsbury services are also sometimes split/joined to Scotland trains at WVH, which takes up time.​

 

[The Planner]

Am I right in thinking that this is Network Rail refusing to release extra paths? I think I remember something about wanting to leave space for HS2 engineering/spoil trains.
Though I could be completely wrong

Some of us are of the belief it was snake oil and they aren't actually there to be had. If they aren't there south of Rugby, they certainly aren't there at Norton Bridge.

 

[Confused147]

It's dead easy to change at Crewe off those Liverpool trains. Is there a great market between Stafford, Preston and Scotland that is going untapped by lack of a direct service?

One of the things that make a good rail service is offering direct services but these days its all about forcing people to change trains at confusing big stations. Crewe is a confusing big station and is only easy for those who know the station. And you don't have to wait for a great market or demand to offer services between Stafford and Preston. I bet there would be outrage and uproar if they removed all Liverpool services from Stafford and replaced them with Prestons and Holyheads.

 

[Mathew S]

Crewe is a confusing big station

Really? I'm not sure that's true. I only use it once in a blue moon to change between VTWC and ATW Marches services, but I've never found it remotely 'confusing'. Does it sometimes take a minute to work out where I am, where I need to be, and how to get there? Yes. But that hardly qualifies as confusing. And to Virgin's credit there always seem to be plenty of staff around to ask if you're not sure where to be.

 

[Ianno87]

One of the things that make a good rail service is offering direct services but these days its all about forcing people to change trains at confusing big stations. Crewe is a confusing big station and is only easy for those who know the station. And you don't have to wait for a great market or demand to offer services between Stafford and Preston. I bet there would be outrage and uproar if they removed all Liverpool services from Stafford and replaced them with Prestons and Holyheads.

I bet if you looked at ticket sales from Stafford, demand to Manchester and Liverpool (commuters etc.) will far outstrip that to Preston and Scotland. Thus the service is designed to meet the needs of the market.

 

[pt_mad]

When the Very High Frequency timetable was being planned on the WCML, with the Norton Bridge upgrade to follow, HS2 wasn't really envisaged. The plan was probably at some point to run another 2 fast paths off Euston each hour to what we have now (xx33 xx37?).

However, HS2 planning has accelerated so quickly that we are now being told phase one to Birmingham and Rugeley WCML link will now be open in 2026. Nothing significant is going to happen now before the end of this West Coast franchise, other than the 3 new off peak Blackpool returns.
So realistically by the time the franchise is re let as West Coast partnership, and the new operator has settled in, it's going to be 2020 and only 6 years of very high frequency west coast running left. And the new franchisee also has to plan for HS2, as they will be running the trains on that for several years once it begins operation.

So it remains questionable whether the two extra fast paths on the WCML will ever be used by passenger services. The operator may commit to introducing bi-mode trains of some kind for use on Chester and North Wales services. However, this may be a problem in itself as there are no off the shelf tilting bi-mode trains available that we know of?

Or another option could be to run the Chester service in the xx33 path with an IEP bi-mode train at 110mph, and let the following Manchester service overtake at Milton Keynes (which is what GNWR want to do with the Blackpool service).


As for extra stops at intermediate stations, nothing is likely to significantly change in the short term. One or two of the Trent Valley stations may claw back the odd stop here and there in the peak or just outside of it, particularly Rugby like with the VT Blackpools.

 

[Mathew S]

Yeah, but do people want to change at Crewe?

What individual people want is, largely, irrelevant. Passengers can easily change at Birmingham or Crewe, or even Liverpool, and get to pretty much anywhere from Stafford with a single change.
There are a few lazy, and selfish, passengers who think that the rail system (and world in general) is inadequate if it doesn't offer direct trains every ten minutes between the exact stations they want to travel to and from. Well, it doesn't. Any system is a compromise, and one change to get pretty much anywhere in the country is perfectly acceptable. The sooner people learn that the better.

 

[jamess]

The new London-Blackpool VT service (3 trains a day from May) will call at Stafford I think, maybe also the GNWR service when it comes.

Have virgin been granted these paths now?

 

[Ianno87]

Worth noting that changing Stafford to Scotland at Crewe rarely involves even having to use the footbridge/subway at Crewe. Usually a same or cross-platform connection.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I bet if you looked at ticket sales from Stafford, demand to Manchester and Liverpool (commuters etc.) will far outstrip that to Preston and Scotland. Thus the service is designed to meet the needs of the market.

What is odd it that the Birmingham-Scotland calls at stations smaller than Stafford between Crewe and Carlisle.
The only significant omission is Stafford.

Have virgin been granted these paths now?

I haven't seen anything final from ORR, but the paths are there on Open Train Times.

 

[JonathanH]

I’d rather have the VT services north alternate between Liverpool and Manchester rather than hourly to Liverpool

There are two trains an hour from Stafford to Manchester and three from Stafford to Liverpool with further travel opportunity for Manchester available via a change at Crewe or Stoke. Why would the VT services north from Stafford need to alternate between Liverpool and Manchester? The whole point of a timetable like the one on the West Coast now is that the same services and connections are available every hour.

 

[Ianno87]

What is odd it that the Birmingham-Scotland calls at stations smaller than Stafford between Crewe and Carlisle.
The only significant omission is Stafford.
I just checked the first E


I haven't seen anything final from ORR, but the paths are there on Open Train Times.

So, for stations north of Crewe...
-Wigan and Warrington are stopped at as this gives a half-hourly service on the strong Warrington-Wigan-Preston local flow
-Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle are obviously main hubs and railheads

The 'small' stations are presumably Oxenholme/Penrith? The Birmingham-Scotland generally calls at one of these, and not both. As does the Euston-Scotland. Giving these, on average, an hourly VT service between them (either Euston or Birmingham), and (with the TPE service), a roughly alternating Edinburgh/Glasgow service.

Without the Brum/Euston-Scotland, these stations have little alternative, whereas Stafford has a decent alternative via Crewe.

 

[Mathew S]

Wigan and Warrington are stopped at as this gives a half-hourly service on the strong Warrington-Wigan-Preston local flow

They are, in fact, the only practical way of travelling Wigan-Warrington by public transport, a route where I really think there should be a local Northern service, but afaik never has been.

 

[DenmarkRail]

I was never suggesting that STA should get an hourly service to Scotland, just a little extra than hourly VTWC/LNWR Liverpool / EUS