Do WCML stations have a worse service under VTWC?

[Taunton]

Nobody has mentioned so far the loss of most of the Watford Junction stops, which has killed a lot of high-fare business traffic from N/NW/W London, Herts and Bucks. It's actually given business (including from my own office) back to the airlines from Heathrow. Bizarrely there are journeys now where the quickest thing is going from Watford into Euston and coming back out again.

 

[Mathew S]

Nobody has mentioned so far the loss of most of the Watford Junction stops, which has killed a lot of high-fare business traffic from N/NW/W London, Herts and Bucks. It's actually given business (including from my own office) back to the airlines from Heathrow. Bizarrely there are journeys now where the quickest thing is going from Watford into Euston and coming back out again.

True, have to admit I'd forgotten Watford.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Nobody has mentioned so far the loss of most of the Watford Junction stops, which has killed a lot of high-fare business traffic from N/NW/W London, Herts and Bucks. It's actually given business (including from my own office) back to the airlines from Heathrow. Bizarrely there are journeys now where the quickest thing is going from Watford into Euston and coming back out again.

I did a bit back - and one I opposed when the 2004 TT was put in (which worked very well) - but the revenue from Watford to Manchester / Liverpool etc was not inconsiderable. Rebalancing once HS2 is alive I reckon.

 

[Confused147]

I bet if you looked at ticket sales from Stafford, demand to Manchester and Liverpool (commuters etc.) will far outstrip that to Preston and Scotland. Thus the service is designed to meet the needs of the market.

So ticket sales from Stafford to stations past Warrington or Chester have to exceed a certain amount before we can say demand is there and a direct service can be awarded?

 

[dk1]

The new London-Blackpool VT service (3 trains a day from May) will call at Stafford I think, maybe also the GNWR service when it comes.

I was under the impression that should they be granted, the VT services will start in the December TT change.

 

[pt_mad]

Have virgin been granted these paths now?

Apparently they are in realtime trains so it seems very likely they've been granted.

I was never suggesting that STA should get an hourly service to Scotland, just a little extra than hourly VTWC/LNWR Liverpool / EUS

Well if the 3 x VT Blackpools call in each direction then that's another 6 express trains a day for Stafford. Same if they call at Rugby, as I think was proposed?

Stafford really does enjoy a better service than many other stations on the WCML of similar size and town population.

One has to wonder whether Stafford and Rugby to some extent did so well out of the VHF timetable simply because they were main west coast operator stations?

 

[Mathew S]

So ticket sales from Stafford to stations past Warrington or Chester have to exceed a certain amount before we can say demand is there and a direct service can be awarded?

Yes, I would say, is the answer to that one.

 

[Ianno87]

So ticket sales from Stafford to stations past Warrington or Chester have to exceed a certain amount before we can say demand is there and a direct service can be awarded?

Well, yes. The revenue generated by extra Stafford stops must be balanced against the revenue lost by either dropping other stops to compensate, or by making cross-Stafford journeys take longer, or the additional rolling stock running costs required if the extra stop (adding 3-4 minutes running time each way, so up to 8 minutes on an hourly circuit) is enough to require an extra train in the cycle overall.

The Birmingham-Scotland turnround times at Edinburgh aren't really generous enough to reliably absorb an extra stop.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Over the Xmas period there were hourly services to Scotland, to obviously compensate for extra passengers traveling.

I don’t see why they can’t make bi hourly stops, or even only 3 times daily stops

 

[uww11x]

Apparently they are in realtime trains so it seems very likely they've been granted.



Well if the 3 x VT Blackpools call in each direction then that's another 6 express trains a day for Stafford. Same if they call at Rugby, as I think was proposed?

Stafford really does enjoy a better service than many other stations on the WCML of similar size and town population.

One has to wonder whether Stafford and Rugby to some extent did so well out of the VHF timetable simply because they were main west coast operator stations?

1K14 0530 to Crewe. 221* (attach & continues to EUS)
1P91 0937 from Euston. 390
1A91 1053 to Euston. 390
1P92 1156 from Euston. 390
1A92 1302 to Euston. 390
1P93 1320 from Euston. 390
1A93 1500 to Euston. 390
1P21 1930 from Euston. 221*

390 Services call Rugby, Warrington, Wigan & Preston both ways. What is interesting is the 1053 departs Preston at 1120, 3 minutes behind the Euston via Birmingham service.

 

[takno]

Over the Xmas period there were hourly services to Scotland, to obviously compensate for extra passengers traveling.

I don’t see why they can’t make bi hourly stops, or even only 3 times daily stops

The Scotland trains are already slow as hell - I'd be looking to drop stops rather than adding more. Stafford seems to be a pretty small city that already has a better-than-expected train service just because it happens to be on the main line.

 

[Starmill]

Over the Xmas period there were hourly services to Scotland, to obviously compensate for extra passengers traveling.

I don’t see why they can’t make bi hourly stops, or even only 3 times daily stops

That was as a result of engineering work, which meant a reduced service was in operation.

A call at Stafford on a service bound for Scotland would likely create a conflict at Goldborne Junction.

The 1740 from Glasgow Central does call at Stafford, and the 0627 from Manchester Piccadilly also provides Stafford to Birmingham capacity. The 0601, 2015 and 2115 services from Birmingham New Street also call at Stafford.

 

[6Gman]

Crewe also receives fewer fast services,

Really?

 

[philthetube]

Nobody has mentioned so far the loss of most of the Watford Junction stops, which has killed a lot of high-fare business traffic from N/NW/W London, Herts and Bucks. It's actually given business (including from my own office) back to the airlines from Heathrow. Bizarrely there are journeys now where the quickest thing is going from Watford into Euston and coming back out again.

And the fares don't represent the longer, more inconvenient journeys, LM to MK, sometimes change at Milton Keynes and Crewe.

 

[6Gman]

One of the things that make a good rail service is offering direct services but these days its all about forcing people to change trains at confusing big stations. Crewe is a confusing big station and is only easy for those who know the station. And you don't have to wait for a great market or demand to offer services between Stafford and Preston. I bet there would be outrage and uproar if they removed all Liverpool services from Stafford and replaced them with Prestons and Holyheads.

If you're travelling from Stafford to Scotland you get off at Crewe at xx56 (or thereabouts) almost always on Platform 11, and catch your onward connection at xx09 almost always on Platform 11. Southbound it's around 20 minutes and you will probably need to change platforms. From No.5 to No.6.

 

[6Gman]

Over the Xmas period there were hourly services to Scotland, to obviously compensate for extra passengers traveling.

I don’t see why they can’t make bi hourly stops, or even only 3 times daily stops

Wasn't that because of the thinning out of other services?

 

[tbtc]

If there's to be an additional WCML stop in the timetable then I'd put the priorities something like...

1. Milton Keynes
2. Watford
3. Nuneaton

...rather than Stafford featuring high up the list.

I notice much longer trains back in 2003, when we are now stuck with mostly 9 car 390s

Which trains were longer in 2003?

I could understand if you were talking about the mythical BR days, where services seem to grow an extra carriage every time there's a thread about them, but... 2003? I can't think of anything on the WCML that's shorter now?

Eleven coach 390s, doubled up Voyagers... these are the good days.

Dropping stops (or standardising them in the same hourly trains in the case of Stafford) gives both line capacity for extra trains and means the same fleet of trains can cover more services by making faster round trips.

Agreed.

The WCML timetable is a thing of beauty, when you consider the complications, the need to slot twenty minute frequencies and half hourly frequencies together, the infrastructure... you can't squeeze much more out of it.

I’d rather have the VT services north alternate between Liverpool and Manchester rather than hourly to Liverpool

There are two trains an hour from Stafford to Manchester and three from Stafford to Liverpool with further travel opportunity for Manchester available via a change at Crewe or Stoke. Why would the VT services north from Stafford need to alternate between Liverpool and Manchester? The whole point of a timetable like the one on the West Coast now is that the same services and connections are available every hour.

Dropping some Liverpool stops to gain Manchester stops is going to confuse a lot of passengers... it's going to leave Euston - Stafford with a lopsided timetable... Manchester already has a good enough service to Stafford... I don't see any benefit of that.

They are, in fact, the only practical way of travelling Wigan-Warrington by public transport, a route where I really think there should be a local Northern service, but afaik never has been.

Maybe now that Northern can access large numbers of "spare" 100mph EMUs (the 319s) there'll be scope for them to do that - but I appreciate I'm going off-topic.

Over the Xmas period there were hourly services to Scotland, to obviously compensate for extra passengers traveling.

I don’t see why they can’t make bi hourly stops, or even only 3 times daily stops

...because the busy WCML doesn't have space for services to randomly stop at different stations each hour - much better to have a reliable hourly service pattern so that passengers can trust the timetable - there's a train chasing along at 125mph three minutes behind you, breathing down your neck - which means that by the time you've randomly added in a Stafford stop it'll be curtains.

BR had a quieter line and oddly timed services, so there was scope to stick a stop in here, a stop in there... some places got one train a day to half a dozen different destinations, which was all very interesting for railway enthusiasts, but it's probably better for passengers to get a clock face service to the same destination twelve times a day.

 

[All Line Rover]

The Scotland trains are already slow as hell - I'd be looking to drop stops rather than adding more. Stafford seems to be a pretty small city that already has a better-than-expected train service just because it happens to be on the main line.

The Scotland trains are not "slow", although the 12 minute wait at Wolverhampton makes them feel slow when travelling to Birmingham. All that money spent on 125mph running from Scotland, then wasted on a 32 minute journey time from Wolverhampton (arr. xx:33) to Birmingham (arr xx:05). A call at Stafford would not add to journey times - the wait at Wolverhampton would shorten, that is all.

 

[All Line Rover]

The new London-Blackpool VT service (3 trains a day from May) will call at Stafford I think, maybe also the GNWR service when it comes.
Apart from these, we're still waiting for the extra trains promised by the Norton Bridge upgrade.

They don't appear to serve Stafford - only Rugby, then Warrington. I can't fathom why Virgin want to add additional services between London and Rugby which operate around the same time, in both directions, as marginally slower LNR (ex London Midland) services - e.g. existing Rugby 12:53 to Euston 13:50 LNR (calling at Milton Keynes), supplemented by Rugby 13:00 to Euston 13:53 VT (non-stop). It would be better to skip Rugby and call at Stafford, where the non-stop journey time would offer a meaningful time saving compared to the LNR services.

 

[Starmill]

The Scotland trains are not "slow", although the 12 minute wait at Wolverhampton makes them feel slow when travelling to Birmingham. All that money spent on 125mph running from Scotland, then wasted on a 32 minute journey time from Wolverhampton (arr. xx:33) to Birmingham (arr xx:05). A call at Stafford would not add to journey times - the wait at Wolverhampton would shorten, that is all.

There is a possibility that this could apply Southbound. It would be a bit odd to call in one direction but not the other... although that would only be the same as what happens at Penkridge.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Really?

Crewe actually has more London services now.
With BR and early VT it had just the Liverpool and Glasgow services, plus the odd Holyhead and peak extra.
With VHF it got the Manchester and Chester/Holyhead hourly, and now has the Liverpool back most of the day.
Plus the via Birmingham one.
Soon it will have the LNR fast as well.

 

[6Gman]

There is another problem with a Stafford call - use by commuters between New Street and Stafford.

 

[GW43125]

If there's to be an additional WCML stop in the timetable then I'd put the priorities something like...

1. Milton Keynes
2. Watford
3. Nuneaton

I'll admit I don't know what the loadings are like but I'd probably swap Milton Keynes and Watford for the simple reason that Milton Keynes already has 1tph to both Birmingham and Manchester, Whereas Watford only gets the one to Birmingham.

Now of course this probably wouldn't work without disrupting the departure pattern from Euston (or sacrificing stops further down the line), but it's my tuppence-worth.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

This is a very interesting question and definitely is worthy of answering.

The trade-off that has been made is to create a fully-standardised, hourly-repeating timetable with the highest available capacity between London and the Midlands, North West and Scotland. Of course, this means that places like Watford Junction, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford, Crewe, Lockerbie and Motherwell have definitely 'lost out'; however the problem was that you might get a train to London anything between every 1 and 4 hours anyway and the journey times would be wildly different.

There are some things the West Coast franchisee could do in the immediate term to help and things the Government should have done with the London North Western / Midlands franchise which are missed opportunities.

I would have ordered some 5 car IEP-type units for the LNW franchisee for the Trent Valley and also for Birmingham to Liverpool in order to create a better passenger experience but also to take advantage of faster line speeds from London towards Rugby; allowing a possible half-hourly service on the Trent Valley with a service direct via Stoke to Liverpool and a service direct via Stafford to Crewe (or Preston); which would have the secondary advantage of creating a fare differential for passengers.

I'd want something like this out of London every hour during off-peak:
xx00 Glasgow Central (Euston, Milton Keynes, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Glasgow)
xx03 Manchester Piccadilly (Euston, Watford Junction, Nuneaton, Stoke on Trent, Stockport, Manchester)
xx09 Liverpool Lime Street [LNWR IEP] (Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stoke, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool)
xx18 Birmingham New Street (Euston, Milton Keynes, Coventry, International, New Street)
xx21 Birmingham New Street [350] (Euston, Watford, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby, Coventry (etc.)
xx27 Manchester Piccadilly (Euston, Stafford, Crewe, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly)
xx30 Glasgow Central (Euston, Rugby, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle, Glasgow)
xx33 Manchester Piccadilly (Euston, Milton Keynes, Stoke on Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester)
xx39 Liverpool Lime Street (Euston, Tamworth, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool)
xx42 Preston [LNWR IEP] (Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield, Rugeley, Stafford, Crewe, Hartford, Warrington, Wigan, Preston)
xx48 Birmingham New Street (Euston, Rugby, Coventry, International, New Street)
xx51 Birmingham New Street [350] (Euston, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby, Coventry etc.)
xx57 Manchester Piccadilly (Euston, Crewe, Wilmslow, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly)

Then to speed up journeys on the Birmingham and Northampton 'stopper', simply extend the Tring trains through to Bletchley (Euston, Queens Park, Harrow & Wealdstone, Bushey, Watford, Kings Langley, Apsley, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Tring, Cheddington, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley); and have the Birmingham 'stopper' every half hour on the slow lines as Euston, Watford, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry etc.

 

[totally]

What is odd it that the Birmingham-Scotland calls at stations smaller than Stafford between Crewe and Carlisle.
The only significant omission is Stafford.



I haven't seen anything final from ORR, but the paths are there on Open Train Times.

Yes they are also now showing on Virgin trains website as bookable between Blackpool and London and vice Versa( although no advance fares show yet of course) The real puzzle as mentioned in another thread on these new trains is that they currently are scheduled NOT to call at Fylde Coast Stations,(Kirkham and Poulton) they run direct to Blackpool from Preston. Very unwise in terms of growing the market.

 

[takno]

The Scotland trains are not "slow", although the 12 minute wait at Wolverhampton makes them feel slow when travelling to Birmingham. All that money spent on 125mph running from Scotland, then wasted on a 32 minute journey time from Wolverhampton (arr. xx:33) to Birmingham (arr xx:05). A call at Stafford would not add to journey times - the wait at Wolverhampton would shorten, that is all.

Half the time I'm going northbound, and half the rest of the time I'm changing at Wolverhampton, so there isn't a handy buffer to take up a Stafford stop. As to the general speed of it, it's nice that the line is 125mph, but stopping at Carlisle, Oxenholme, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan, Warrington and Crewe before Wolverhampton definitely puts a dent in the average speed.

 

[pt_mad]

Yes they are also now showing on Virgin trains website as bookable between Blackpool and London and vice Versa( although no advance fares show yet of course) The real puzzle as mentioned in another thread on these new trains is that they currently are scheduled NOT to call at Fylde Coast Stations,(Kirkham and Poulton) they run direct to Blackpool from Preston. Very unwise in terms of growing the market.

Read elsewhere that platform lengths are an issue. Short platforms. Pendolinos are in theory capable of selective door operation but this isn't widely in practice at the moment. Drivers release doors. No dispatch staff at these stations. Also rumoured that may be additional problems with long trains and signal sightings meaning train could overhang into the previous section when at one or both of these stations but have no idea on that.

 

[pt_mad]

This is a very interesting question and definitely is worthy of answering.

The trade-off that has been made is to create a fully-standardised, hourly-repeating timetable with the highest available capacity between London and the Midlands, North West and Scotland. Of course, this means that places like Watford Junction, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stafford, Crewe, Lockerbie and Motherwell have definitely 'lost out'; however the problem was that you might get a train to London anything between every 1 and 4 hours anyway and the journey times would be wildly different.

There are some things the West Coast franchisee could do in the immediate term to help and things the Government should have done with the London North Western / Midlands franchise which are missed opportunities.

I would have ordered some 5 car IEP-type units for the LNW franchisee for the Trent Valley and also for Birmingham to Liverpool in order to create a better passenger experience but also to take advantage of faster line speeds from London towards Rugby; allowing a possible half-hourly service on the Trent Valley with a service direct via Stoke to Liverpool and a service direct via Stafford to Crewe (or Preston); which would have the secondary advantage of creating a fare differential for passengers.

I'd want something like this out of London every hour during off-peak:
xx00 Glasgow Central (Euston, Milton Keynes, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Motherwell, Glasgow)
xx03 Manchester Piccadilly (Euston, Watford Junction, Nuneaton, Stoke on Trent, Stockport, Manchester)
xx09 Liverpool Lime Street [LNWR IEP] (Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield, Stoke, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool)
xx18 Birmingham New Street (Euston, Milton Keynes, Coventry, International, New Street)
xx21 Birmingham New Street [350] (Euston, Watford, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby, Coventry (etc.)
xx27 Manchester Piccadilly (Euston, Stafford, Crewe, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly)
xx30 Glasgow Central (Euston, Rugby, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle, Glasgow)
xx33 Manchester Piccadilly (Euston, Milton Keynes, Stoke on Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester)
xx39 Liverpool Lime Street (Euston, Tamworth, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool)
xx42 Preston [LNWR IEP] (Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Tamworth, Lichfield, Rugeley, Stafford, Crewe, Hartford, Warrington, Wigan, Preston)
xx48 Birmingham New Street (Euston, Rugby, Coventry, International, New Street)
xx51 Birmingham New Street [350] (Euston, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby, Coventry etc.)
xx57 Manchester Piccadilly (Euston, Crewe, Wilmslow, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly)

Then to speed up journeys on the Birmingham and Northampton 'stopper', simply extend the Tring trains through to Bletchley (Euston, Queens Park, Harrow & Wealdstone, Bushey, Watford, Kings Langley, Apsley, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Tring, Cheddington, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley); and have the Birmingham 'stopper' every half hour on the slow lines as Euston, Watford, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry etc.

Do they need IEP trains when 350s can do 110mph with excellent acceleration? IEPs would be max 110mph too. The introduction of the Aventras on the Birmingham/Liverpool and introduction of 350/4s should mean far more class 350s are available for long Trent Valley services.

Also, the xx33 fast path from Euston can be used at 110mph all the way to Crewe, provided the following xx40 Manchester service is allowed to overtake at Milton Keynes. Which is what GNWR want to do with four of their trains, which now looks ever more realistic.

So a rake of 110mph 350s, as well as potentially the class 91 sets with GNWR, means plenty of possibly going forward.

 

[SeanM1997]

I don't really understand why the new Blackpool - London services can't call at Crewe. The trains seem to get to Crewe heading south at xx:20 and get to Crewe at xx:28 heading north. These services could quite easily have platform capacity at Crewe (Platform 1 heading south and Platform 11 heading north) without conflicting current movements, and would help provide Blackpool with better connectivity to destinations such as Chester, Shrewsbury and Stoke, as at the moment it is very difficult to get from Blackpool to Cheshire, Shropshire and Staffordshire

 

[Philip]

They are, in fact, the only practical way of travelling Wigan-Warrington by public transport, a route where I really think there should be a local Northern service, but afaik never has been.

I can remember getting on a Chester/Llandudno train from Wigan NW which called at Warrington before taking the usual route. I'm pretty sure it originated from north of Wigan, so Preston at least. This was in 1997 so it seems such a service did exist, under First NW.

In slightly more recent years, FNW also sometimes used to send diverted Manchester-North Wales services through Atherton or Bolton to Wigan NW with a reversal there before heading south down the WCML to Warrington, though I don't know if they called at Wigan.