Sons Possible Court Summons

[EC102]

Hopefully someone can advise on my sons situation:

n the 19th October 2017 he purchased a weekly train ticket at Cathays Station, Cardiff. He has the statement referencing the purchase.

On the morning of 20th October he left home as usual and alighted a train at Cathays station to Cardiff Central to join a connecting train to Port Talbot, where he works. On reaching Cardiff Central he realised he had inadvertently left his wallet at home which contained his photocard and weekly rail ticket. He proceeded to the ticket barrier and explained his situation to the Ticket Inspector who then directed him to the Ticket Issuing counter.

He explained again to the Ticket Issuer and she completed a form in front of him. She asked him if I was in a position to pay for a ticket and he was not since he did not have his wallet. On completion of the form the lady gave him a leaflet with details of fare evasion and said that the Ticket Inspector would now let him through the ticket barrier. He did not receive any other piece of paper and he did not receive any Penalty Fare Notice. If he was issued with a penalty fare notice he would most certainly have paid it immediately on his return.

Unbeknown to me at the time he then received his first letter from TIL informing him that there is valid information to prosecute and that unless he responded within 21 days a Summons to a Magistrates Court may be issued without further reference to him. He responded on 6th December 2017 with a full explanation and that it was him that approached the station Ticket Inspector informing them of the situation and he was not trying to evade the fare or act in any fraudulent manner.

He then received a further letter on 14th December 2017. Unfortunately his friend ill-advised him in his response to the second letter and he has now been advised that they are proceeding with the summons. With his position requiring him to travel abroad he cannot afford a criminal record and may well lose his job. What are his options? Any advice

 

[island]

Arriva Trains Wales does not issue Penalty Fares, so that would never have arisen as an option.

Did he continue on to Port Talbot Parkway that day or where did he travel onwards to from Cardiff Central?

Does any of the paperwork mention the offence for which they are considering prosecuting him?

Few if any countries and few if any employers would hold a criminal record for fare evasion against someone – I’ve known people to come a cropper for failing to declare and then getting found out, at which point it becomes a dishonesty thing – so I would caution against blowing things out of all proportion.

 

[bb21]

I assume that your son has a Cathays to Port Talbot weekly season ticket as mentioned in your second paragraph. Is that right? If not, did he purchase any additional fare to cover his journey that day?

It would be useful to know what "advice" he followed that was ill-advised.

Industry standard is that a customer is allowed one chance within a period of 12 months for a forgotten season ticket iirc, provided that the valid season ticket is produced retrospectively within the given time scale (in which case any pending investigation would be cancelled) so it needn't have turned out badly at all.

May I also enquire as to roughly how old your son is?

 

[EC102]

He did not continue to Port Talbot. He went back to his flat and worked from home that day. The letters infer that he is being prosecuted for not having a valid ticket from Cathays to Cardiff Central, which is £2.50.

Attached are the three letters he has received to date

[Mod note - confidential details removed]

 

[bb21]

Apologies I may have inadvertently removed the dates on these letters when I amended them. I can confirm that the attachments were in date order.

 

[EC102]

My son has a weekly ticket from Cathays to Port Talbot. On the day in question he was asked a series of questions and they filled out the form and then informed him to expect a letter within 30 working days. He was expecting a fine of some sort but not a threat of court summons.

This happened to one of his friends previously and unfortunately he gave my son a copy of the letter issued by his solicitor. It was quite a forceful letter stating that if they proceed to court he will provide the evidence that he did have a valid ticket at the time but not on him. Stupid I know but he thought if his friend got off previously then he would, but obviously not.

He is 22 by the way.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Sounds like your son has done the equivalent of land on the "straight to court" square playing railway ticket monopoly.

You can try and actually send in the evidence that he had a valid ticket and hope that TIL will want to clear the case off their desk before incurring costs taking it to court. However there's no guarentee as he's already effectively asked to go to court.

 

[gray1404]

What concerns me here is Arriva Trains Wales and Transport Investigations not having in place nor following the correct procedure for dealing with with travllers who have left their season ticket at home. As noted above, the National Rail Conditions of Travel (the contract according to which the season ticket was purchased and travel is made subject to) allows for travellers to leave their season ticket at home and sort it out later once (or twice?) a year. No such allowances appear to have been made for your son. Did he enclose a copy of his season ticket when he replied to Transport Investigations Limited? If not, and he explained that he was a season ticket holder, I wonder why they have not asked him to provide a copy in their second letter. Furthermore, the member of staff who took his details appears to have "reported him" rather then treated it as a season ticket left at home matter.

Transport Investigations appear to be up to their usual tricks of sending out standard letters and not actually engaging with passengers. Those are the same standard worded letters that they send out to most people, no matter what they say or if they try to settle out of court. I think their behavior is totally wrong and they are the only organisation dealing with fare evasion that seems to just ignore what the passenger replies and want to proceed with court action. Something is seriously wrong with the way they are conducting themselves. Why are they inviting the customer to respond and why are they saying they have duly noted their comments, when clearly they haven't. Transport Investigations need taking to task.

 

[najaB]

What concerns me here is Arriva Trains Wales and Transport Investigations not having in place nor following the correct procedure for dealing with with travllers who have left their season ticket at home. As noted above, the National Rail Conditions of Travel (the contract according to which the season ticket was purchased and travel is made subject to) allows for travellers to leave their season ticket at home and sort it out later once (or twice?) a year. No such allowances appear to have been made for your son.

Perhaps you should re-read the NRCoT and reflect on the OP's post:

He explained again to the Ticket Issuer and she completed a form in front of him. She asked him if I was in a position to pay for a ticket and he was not since he did not have his wallet.

See the problem?

 

[Gareth Marston]

What concerns me here is Arriva Trains Wales and Transport Investigations not having in place nor following the correct procedure for dealing with with travllers who have left their season ticket at home. As noted above, the National Rail Conditions of Travel (the contract according to which the season ticket was purchased and travel is made subject to) allows for travellers to leave their season ticket at home and sort it out later once (or twice?) a year. No such allowances appear to have been made for your son. Did he enclose a copy of his season ticket when he replied to Transport Investigations Limited? If not, and he explained that he was a season ticket holder, I wonder why they have not asked him to provide a copy in their second letter. Furthermore, the member of staff who took his details appears to have "reported him" rather then treated it as a season ticket left at home matter.

Transport Investigations appear to be up to their usual tricks of sending out standard letters and not actually engaging with passengers. Those are the same standard worded letters that they send out to most people, no matter what they say or if they try to settle out of court. I think their behavior is totally wrong and they are the only organisation dealing with fare evasion that seems to just ignore what the passenger replies and want to proceed with court action. Something is seriously wrong with the way they are conducting themselves. Why are they inviting the customer to respond and why are they saying they have duly noted their comments, when clearly they haven't. Transport Investigations need taking to task.

If you read his posts it's clear cut that the OP's son has not had a ticket with him, not had any means to pay and then sent a letter to TIL saying " go on then see you in court". How do you expect TIL to react in those circumstances? Any Tom, dick or Harry can say I've got a ticket but left it at home. What's hard about actually proving it? How are staff suppose react on the spot? Just cave in on a say so?

 

[Dai Corner]

I believe Cathays has ticket barriers. Unless they knew they weren't operational at the time the staff at Cardiff Central may have wondered how the passenger got through them without a ticket. Did they ask him about this @EC102 ? If so, what did he say?

 

[furlong]

Forgotten season ticket? Ought to have been advised on the spot to send in a copy to a supplied address at the earliest opportunity after the incident. Even if not so advised, should have looked up or asked for the address and sent in the copy anyway.

Has a copy been sent yet? If he no longer possesses it, how did that happen and has it been explained and has the statement showing the purchase - hopefully from an account in his name to keep things simple - been sent, so they can look up the corresponding ticket? If not, why not?

Technically, you are supposed always to check you have your season ticket with you at the start of your journey, and if you've forgotten it, deal with the matter there and then (various mechanisms are available depending on the exact circumstances).

 

[Puffing Devil]

This has not gone well for your son and could perhaps have been avoided with a well worded letter at the start. It would be helpful to see what was written in response to the first two letters.

Either way, there is nothing to be lost by writing again as ATW (TIL) do not appear to be abiding by their own published policy. https://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/RevenueEnforcementPolicy/ I would apologise again for the mistake and gently point to the policy which contains:

The underlying principal of this process is to protect passengers who make an innocent mistake from those who are deliberate ticketless passengers. In the first instance the customer will be asked for payment with a reasonable administration charge. The process is intended to identify those who are constant offenders or those that have carried out acts of fraud. For those passengers who have attempted to defraud we have no option but to carry out court proceedings.​

Provide evidence of the season ticket held and make an offer to cover the fare that was unpaid on the day (even though some may argue that it was) and cover their administration costs. If this has no impact you may also want to write directly to ATW pointing out that their contractor was not adhering to their published policy.

The objective of the exercise is to avoid a court appearance, which can be a lottery. If the matter does land in court it may still be dropped on the day by talking to the prosecutor on the day, who may be more reasonable that TIL.

 

[EC102]

I have phoned ATW twice and on both occasions they refer me to TIL. They tell me that they do not deal directly with fare evasions or prosecutions. However I would have that they must have reviewed my sons case in the beginning and then passed it to TIL. Furthermore, surely with all the back up systems they have they must be able to see the transaction that took place, since he gave them the authorisation code for when he purchased the ticket, and see that he did have a valid ticket at the time of travel and it was a genuine mistake.

Since he has written twice to TIL explaining the situation and got nowhere it may be a case of writing to ATW, however my first thought is that they will refer us back to TIL and wash their hands of the issue.

 

[najaB]

I have phoned ATW twice and on both occasions they refer me to TIL. They tell me that they do not deal directly with fare evasions or prosecutions.

This is correct. While it is in TIL's hands the train company has no involvement. They will, however, get involved again if a summons is issued.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I have phoned ATW twice and on both occasions they refer me to TIL. They tell me that they do not deal directly with fare evasions or prosecutions. However I would have that they must have reviewed my sons case in the beginning and then passed it to TIL. Furthermore, surely with all the back up systems they have they must be able to see the transaction that took place, since he gave them the authorisation code for when he purchased the ticket, and see that he did have a valid ticket at the time of travel and it was a genuine mistake.

Since he has written twice to TIL explaining the situation and got nowhere it may be a case of writing to ATW, however my first thought is that they will refer us back to TIL and wash their hands of the issue.

Proof of Purchase doesn't proof that your son has or had the ticket unfortunately, the rules on ticketing are quite clear on this.

 

[_toommm_]

I have phoned ATW twice and on both occasions they refer me to TIL. They tell me that they do not deal directly with fare evasions or prosecutions. However I would have that they must have reviewed my sons case in the beginning and then passed it to TIL. Furthermore, surely with all the back up systems they have they must be able to see the transaction that took place, since he gave them the authorisation code for when he purchased the ticket, and see that he did have a valid ticket at the time of travel and it was a genuine mistake.

Since he has written twice to TIL explaining the situation and got nowhere it may be a case of writing to ATW, however my first thought is that they will refer us back to TIL and wash their hands of the issue.

I would always stay away from the phone and instead proceed with all correspondence being through the form of letters - while it is a bit old-fashioned, it means you can keep a copy of letter you sent and you have a record of when you sent it (incase it gets lost and the company says you never sent a letter). As well as this, any accusations made by them can be more easily disproved with a letter as you have a copy in front of you, whereas with the telephone things can be wildly misconstrued

 

[headshot119]

I believe Cathays has ticket barriers. Unless they knew they weren't operational at the time the staff at Cardiff Central may have wondered how the passenger got through them without a ticket. Did they ask him about this

It's not unusual for the barriers to be open, or the side gate to be open and the barriers shuttered off, or for staff to just let everyone through as the ticket office is the station side of the barriers.

 

[gray1404]

If you read his posts it's clear cut that the OP's son has not had a ticket with him, not had any means to pay and then sent a letter to TIL saying " go on then see you in court". How do you expect TIL to react in those circumstances? Any Tom, dick or Harry can say I've got a ticket but left it at home. What's hard about actually proving it? How are staff suppose react on the spot? Just cave in on a say so?

The point I am making is that if a passenger has left their season ticket at home then there is a procedure in place for that. If a customer is claiming they have forgot their season ticket then that procedure should be explained to them in terms of what they need to do next. We are not sure the OP's son sent a letter saying "see you in court". However, one would expect them to have sent a copy of their season ticket in with their first letter yes - perhaps the OP's parent could confirm if this was done or not?

 

[gray1404]

Perhaps you should re-read the NRCoT and reflect on the OP's post:
See the problem?

As there been a change to the provisions for customer's who have left their season ticket it home? I am able to look up the NRCoT at the moment so do tell.

 

[gray1404]

Forgotten season ticket? Ought to have been advised on the spot to send in a copy to a supplied address at the earliest opportunity after the incident.

Exactly.

Either way, there is nothing to be lost by writing again as ATW (TIL) do not appear to be abiding by their own published policy. https://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/RevenueEnforcementPolicy/ I would apologise again for the mistake and gently point to the policy which contains:

The underlying principal of this process is to protect passengers who make an innocent mistake from those who are deliberate ticketless passengers. In the first instance the customer will be asked for payment with a reasonable administration charge. The process is intended to identify those who are constant offenders or those that have carried out acts of fraud. For those passengers who have attempted to defraud we have no option but to carry out court proceedings.​

My point exactly. The correct policy is not being adhered to.

Nevertheless, before we deal with an innocent mistake being dealt with by payment of an admin charge, again, the customer should have been treated as a "season ticket left at home case" and advised where and by when to send a copy. If they were not compliant with that process then, and only then, treat it as they are now - as fare evasion.

I once had an incident with Transport Investigations acting on behalf of Arriva Trains Wales. The conduct of the staff was not acceptable. I tried to report it to Arriva Trains Wales how their contractor behaved and they didn't want to know in the slightest. I was told several times that "Transport Investigations works for all the train companies and not us. You need to complain to them." When I tried to complain to Transport Investigations I was first asked "You were not reported for anything so what is the problem? Why do you need to complain?" I was then told "If you do want to complain it needs to be in writing with a signature, not just an email. So you must either send a letter or scan a typed letter with a signature." I felt like they were treating me like I was a criminal and trying to set me up for something by insisting on a signature, rather then just a simple complaint email.

 

[bb21]

I think it would be useful to involve Transport Focus in this case, provided that you have evidence of the season ticket he purchased, if you can't get anywhere with ATW. TIL are unlikely to exercise discretion. TF are quite good at getting a suitable compromise in cases like this. Obviously no promises but worth a try.

There is not a lot else I can add to what was already said by others. The reason I asked about his age is the younger they are, the easier it would be for you to "negotiate" with the TOCs on their behalf.

 

[najaB]

As there been a change to the provisions for customer's who have left their season ticket it home? I am able to look up the NRCoT at the moment so do tell.

Passengers who are unable to produce their season ticket or photocard are to be treated as having boarded the train without a ticket (38.1). This means that they must purchase a new ticket. If they purchase a new ticket and are later able to produce the season ticket/photocard then they can apply for a refund of the additional ticket(s) that they purchased (38.2), less an administration fee of no more than £10.

The point I was making is that the OP's son didn't purchase a new ticket, so the 'show your season ticket after the fact' process doesn't apply.

 

[najaB]

Exactly.

No, not 'exactly' at all since the OP's son didn't purchase a new ticket.

My point exactly. The correct policy is not being adhered to.

By the OP's son? I agree.

 

[ainsworth74]

Okay, let us actually quote the NRCoT so we can all be clear what it is that we're talking about:

38. Season Ticket or photocard unavailable for inspection

38.1 If you are unable to present a Season Ticket, or any photocard required with a Season Ticket, when asked by the staff or authorised agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having joined a train without a valid Ticket and Condition 9 will apply.

38.2 If you possess a valid Season Ticket and/or photocard but were unable to present when requested because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned may at their discretion refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with section 9, less an administration charge not exceeding £10.

38.3 In order to claim such a refund, you will need to provide the retailer from whom you bought your Season Ticket with your Season Ticket (and photocard if applicable), together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices.

38.4 A maximum of two such claims will be considered in any 12 month period regardless of the number of Season Tickets bought during that time.

So taking it step by step:

1. Passenger fails to present a season ticket (or photocard to validate the season ticket) when requested by staff which means that they are treated as having joined without a valid ticket and Condition 9 therefore applies.

2. Condition 9 is quite lengthy so I'll chop it down to the relevant portion which is Condition 9.2 and that tells us the following:

9.2 If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked, we are permitted, in law, to take one of the following measures:

a) To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see section 10 below); or

b) To charge you the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms, or for a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on; or

c) To report you for prosecution

3. Cardiff Central is not a Penalty Fare station so option a isn't available which means that we then come to option b. Now we know from the original post:

He explained again to the Ticket Issuer and she completed a form in front of him. She asked him if I was in a position to pay for a ticket and he was not since he did not have his wallet.

(Emphasis mine)

4. So we know that the TOC staff asked the OP's son if he could buy a ticket which he couldn't which then means that b is no longer an option that's open to us as he cannot buy a ticket.

5. With options a and b out unavailable that leaves option c as the only remaining available choice which is what has happened.

6. Looking at Condition 38.1 it is explicitly clear that in the situation where you cannot show valid season ticket:

...you will be treated as having joined a train without a valid Ticket and Condition 9 will apply.

7. The son could not show a valid season ticket so then the TOC staff followed the procedure as laid out in Condition 9. They couldn't issue a Penalty Fare, he couldn't buy a ticket therefore the only option left open to regularise the situation was to report for prosecution. I do not see that the TOC hasn't followed the procedure as laid out in the Conditions of Travel.

Now having said all of that I would have hoped that discretion might have been shown at the prosecution stage in that if the OP's son could show that they had a valid season ticket on the date in question then the matter might have been resolved at that time. However, to me, it seems that this would be at their discretion only as I cannot see anything in the NRCoT which compels them to drop the prosecution after the fact.

I do think that this advice:

I think it would be useful to involve Transport Focus in this case, provided that you have evidence of the season ticket he purchased, if you can't get anywhere with ATW. TIL are unlikely to exercise discretion. TF are quite good at getting a suitable compromise in cases like this. Obviously no promises but worth a try.

Is probably a good idea at this point. Assuming that the son still has proof that he held a valid season ticket.

Has TIL or ATW actually been sent proof of the existence of this season ticket?

 

[Puffing Devil]

Excellent analysis by Ainsworth.

I would only add that the initial letters to ATW/TIL probably (as we have not seen copies) did not address the procedural points and push for a more lenient outcome.

And a thought - would an Unpaid Fare Notice have been an option, given the lost wallet?

 

[falcon]

I fail to see how he can be prosecuted under sec 5 of the Regulation of railways act 1889.
When he has given his name and address and has simply forgoten a season ticket which is allowable under Conditions of travel sec 38.

R.O.R.A 1889 sec 5 (1) and (2) cannot be persued as he gave his name and address and sec 5 (3) cannot be persued as he had previously paid the fare.
?

 

[Puffing Devil]

I fail to see how he can be prosecuted under sec 5 of the Regulation of railways act 1889.
When he has given his name and address and has simply forgoten a season ticket which is allowable under Conditions of travel sec 38.

R.O.R.A 1889 sec 5 (1) and (2) cannot be persued as he gave his name and address and sec 5 (3) cannot be persued as he had previously paid the fare. ?

Okay, let us actually quote the NRCoT so we can all be clear what it is that we're talking about:
So taking it step by step:

1. Passenger fails to present a season ticket (or photocard to validate the season ticket) when requested by staff which means that they are treated as having joined without a valid ticket and Condition 9 therefore applies.

Seems clear enough to me. Have a look in this thread for the debate.

 

[najaB]

Now having said all of that I would have hoped that discretion might have been shown at the prosecution stage in that if the OP's son could show that they had a valid season ticket on the date in question then the matter might have been resolved at that time.

I think that, had the OP's son not replied with what was reportedly a belligerent "See you in Court!" letter, that's exactly what would have happened.

 

[gray1404]

Have you got copies of the replies that were sent back to Transport Investigations please? It would be useful to see what was actually said.

Also, WAS A COPY OF THE SEASON TICKET EVER SENT TO THEM? Please can you answer that question.