North West & Wales cross-border alliance

[northwichcat]

Growth Track 360 has been launched to secure £1bn of rail improvements, which would transform the North Wales and Cheshire regional economy and deliver 70,000 new jobs over 20 years.
It’s being led by a cross-border alliance of business, political and public sector leaders.
If successful, it would lead to a massive boost to the North Wales, Cheshire and Wirral economies, linking them with the planned HS2 line between London and the North of England.

http://www.growthtrack360.com

I'm not sure how much they'll be able to do but they are going to push for:
- Improved access to Manchester Airport from Wales and the Midlands including western Airport link
- New direct links between North Wales and the East Midlands
- 3tph on North Wales coast
- Reinstatement of passenger services on Middlewich branch
- Extension of additional Manchester-Greenbank services to Chester
- Improve rolling stock
- Introduce direct services between Winsford and Warrington
- Improve services to Wrexham including direct Liverpool via Runcorn service.
- Additional loop at Poynton on WCML so that provision of local services can be improved.
- Connect Helsby to Merseyrail network.
- New Mid-Cheshire and WCML interchange station.
- Park and Ride station(s) on Chester to Crewe line.
- Electrification of lines including North Wales Coast, Chester to Crewe and Manchester to Liverpool via Warrington.


http://www.growthtrack360.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/WEST-WALES-RAIL-PROSPECTUS-FINAL.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now what that does demonstrate is that the old structure of three main franchises for Wales made more sense, as North Wales really is, economically, part of the North West (and mid Wales the Midlands, and south Wales closely allied with Bristol and Bath).

 

[MK Tom]

The North Wales Coast Line is one of the examples I hear most of a line completely unsuitable for electrification, because of the landscapes it passes through and the Conway Tunnel.

Winsford-Warrington services could just be an extension of the Euston-Crewe stoppers, like the Preston extension LM tried to do a while back.

 

[6Gman]

Most of the elements make some sense (some more than others ... ) but why does it need another quango to progress (or, more likely, fail to progress) the matter?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Most of the elements make some sense (some more than others ... ) but why does it need another quango to progress (or, more likely, fail to progress) the matter?

Well, without local lobbying by business and politicians, the big boys (TfGM, Merseytravel) will corner the agenda and all the available budget.
It seems to be the aggregate wish list of several authorities, without much prioritisation.
I think we all know North Wales electrification is impossible, but it's on the Welsh wish list so has to go in.
I also have my doubts about the value of spending a lot of money connecting Speke Airport.
I know the locals don't like the comparison, but it simply isn't a major regional airport in the same way as Manchester is.

A Crewe-Warrington local service only makes sense if it continued north to at least Preston, when it could be very valuable.
It could start tomorrow if there was any will to do it - there are now plenty of 319s available.
Much also depends on how HS2 is implemented across the region.
While HS2 Ltd is not interested, an integrated plan to rebuild Crewe and develop better local services including western rail access to the Airport would be very beneficial to the region.
You'd think some rationalisation of the CLC line (mid-Cheshire) using the HS2 corridor would be economic, incorporating the Middlewich line too.

 

[Gareth]

I also have my doubts about the value of spending a lot of money connecting Speke Airport.
I know the locals don't like the comparison, but it simply isn't a major regional airport in the same way as Manchester is.

I don't see Liverpool John Lennon Airport (it's not been called Speke for years) mentioned in the list above. Maybe it should be explicitly mentioned as somewhere they don't intend to connect to stop people having nightmares about it. It not being a major regional airport depends on what yardstick you're using. Not too far off 5 million passengers for the year hardly makes it insignificant in my humble opinion, regardless of how large Manchester Airport is. It's busier than many airports in the country but it seems some people think it has no business existing because of its relative proximity to Manchester (same with the city, essentially). Who was the guy on here who would only support a tram-train between Liverpool & Speke only if it explicitly avoided the airport? That was comical.

 

[B&I]

I don't see Liverpool John Lennon Airport (it's not been called Speke for years) mentioned in the list above. Maybe it should be explicitly mentioned as somewhere they don't intend to connect to stop people having nightmares about it. It not being a major regional airport depends on what yardstick you're using. Not too far off 5 million passengers for the year hardly makes it insignificant in my humble opinion, regardless of how large Manchester Airport is. It's busier than many airports in the country but it seems some people think it has no business existing because of its relative proximity to Manchester (same with the city, essentially). Who was the guy on here who would only support a tram-train between Liverpool & Speke only if it explicitly avoided the airport? That was comical.

Manchester airport has direct trains from a large number of places across the country, plus trams. Liverpool has.... some buses, which don't even connect to most of the city for much of the day. I know this is not the only factor affecting growth, but current levels of public transport provision hardly help.

But yes, let's not say anything about investment round Liverpool, when even the thought of it in reports that don't mention it cause certain posters on here to have a fit of the vapours.

 

[PR1Berske]

Links to both airports are important, particularly for connectivity across the north and Midlands. I am aware that some posters groan at hearing it, though I will repeat again: all rails go to Manchester Airport for a reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The North Wales Coast Line is one of the examples I hear most of a line completely unsuitable for electrification, because of the landscapes it passes through and the Conway Tunnel.

I'm sure it could be done; electrified lines pass far more challenging landscapes worldwide. It might just cost a quid or three.

 

[northwichcat]

Links to both airports are important, particularly for connectivity across the north and Midlands. I am aware that some posters groan at hearing it, though I will repeat again: all rails go to Manchester Airport for a reason.

The real reason there's so many services to Manchester Airport is Piccadilly platform 13 is not a good place to terminate a train and the airport is an easy place to extend services to, without making them too long which could lead to reliability issues. Apart from the local stoppers most trains to Manchester Airport are less than a quarter full.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The real reason there's so many services to Manchester Airport is Piccadilly platform 13 is not a good place to terminate a train and the airport is an easy place to extend services to, without making them too long which could lead to reliability issues. Apart from the local stoppers most trains to Manchester Airport are less than a quarter full.

Which is why I often propose removing the through trains that reverse at Piccadilly or waste space on the Castlefield corridor by using the Ordsall Chord.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't see Liverpool John Lennon Airport (it's not been called Speke for years) mentioned in the list above. Maybe it should be explicitly mentioned as somewhere they don't intend to connect to stop people having nightmares about it. It not being a major regional airport depends on what yardstick you're using. Not too far off 5 million passengers for the year hardly makes it insignificant in my humble opinion, regardless of how large Manchester Airport is. It's busier than many airports in the country but it seems some people think it has no business existing because of its relative proximity to Manchester (same with the city, essentially). Who was the guy on here who would only support a tram-train between Liverpool & Speke only if it explicitly avoided the airport? That was comical.

I think for some reason LNW-GW Joint isn't keen on the idea of direct services to Liverpool from Wales. As already mentioned the plans mentioned make no reference to linking Wales and Liverpool Airport, they make reference to Liverpool so Liverpool Airport is really off-topic for this thread. However, one point I would like to make is while the destinations on offer from Manchester are far greater than from Liverpool there are some countries (not just cities) which have direct flights from Liverpool but don't have direct flights from Manchester and flight times aren't always convenient from Manchester so if you have good links to both airports you get the best of both worlds.

 

[northwichcat]

Which is why I often propose removing the through trains that reverse at Piccadilly or waste space on the Castlefield corridor by using the Ordsall Chord.

This is why a western link could be of regional benefit. You could for instance have Barrow-Manchester Airport-Chester using one path between Piccadilly and the Airport instead of Barrow to Manchester Airport requiring one path and Chester to Manchester Airport requiring another. Piccadilly-Airport-Runcorn-Liverpool services would also be an option.

 

[northwichcat]

I think we all know North Wales electrification is impossible, but it's on the Welsh wish list so has to go in.

Questions have to asked about Chester-Crewe electrification as well. Well before Grayling got anyway near the SoS for Transport role, it was suggested standard OHE for Chester-Crewe wouldn't be a viable option and alternatives like discontinuous electrification and third rail should be considered instead, which would come at the price of requiring bespoke rolling stock and might mean it wouldn't be viable to replace the DMU running the Chester-Crewe shuttle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Questions have to asked about Chester-Crewe electrification as well. Well before Grayling got anyway near the SoS for Transport role, it was suggested standard OHE for Chester-Crewe wouldn't be a viable option and alternatives like discontinuous electrification and third rail should be considered instead, which would come at the price of requiring bespoke rolling stock and might mean it wouldn't be viable to replace the DMU running the Chester-Crewe shuttle.

*Third rail*?

What planet are they on?

It strikes me that Crewe-Chester has a good case for OHLE. If it's *that* expensive, it needs some thought as to design.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

*Third rail*?

What planet are they on?

It strikes me that Crewe-Chester has a good case for OHLE. If it's *that* expensive, it needs some thought as to design.

Absolutely, possibly the straightest least obstructive piece of track. Easy (as easy as it can be ) to electrify .

 

[Philip]

I don't see how the North Wales Coast line can be electrified, because the Crewe-Chester line has the big obstacle of Christleton tunnel - unlike Farnworth they can't just enlarge that because of the canal running over it.

 

[northwichcat]

Absolutely, possibly the straightest least obstructive piece of track. Easy (as easy as it can be ) to electrify .

How does something like an average of 2 bridges over the line every mile make it an easy line to electrify? You could easily find a 13 mile stretch of line with no bridges going over it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For what it's worth (not much), I'm keen on the Chester-Runcorn-Liverpool link and will be using it when it starts.
But an hourly 150 stopper will not be much of an improvement on the current Merseyrail link.
It needs faster through services to make a difference.
The direct Liverpool Airport rail link I don't believe has a decent business case, and isn't really part of this campaign anyway.
Any cross-border initiative is welcome, to counteract the Cardiff-centric tendencies in the WG.
HS2 ought to be the catalyst to open up some of these schemes.

 

[Requeststop]

http://www.growthtrack360.com

I'm not sure how much they'll be able to do but they are going to push for:
- Improved access to Manchester Airport from Wales and the Midlands including western Airport link
- New direct links between North Wales and the East Midlands
- 3tph on North Wales coast
- Reinstatement of passenger services on Middlewich branch
- Extension of additional Manchester-Greenbank services to Chester
- Improve rolling stock
- Introduce direct services between Winsford and Warrington
- Improve services to Wrexham including direct Liverpool via Runcorn service.
- Additional loop at Poynton on WCML so that provision of local services can be improved.
- Connect Helsby to Merseyrail network.
- New Mid-Cheshire and WCML interchange station.
- Park and Ride station(s) on Chester to Crewe line.
- Electrification of lines including North Wales Coast, Chester to Crewe and Manchester to Liverpool via Warrington.


http://www.growthtrack360.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/WEST-WALES-RAIL-PROSPECTUS-FINAL.pdf

Seems that I have read all this before many times. The only thing missing is the dream is the Wrexham-Bidston line being electrified and linked into the Liverpool loop.

I foresee all the above still being discussed in 2050 - by then I'll be 96 years old.

As regards the electrification of the North Wales Coastal line; Talk to the Swiss. OK they don't have a coast like the Irish Sea, but I'm sure they'd have a way of overcoming any difficulties.

 

[northwichcat]

As regards the electrification of the North Wales Coastal line; Talk to the Swiss. OK they don't have a coast like the Irish Sea, but I'm sure they'd have a way of overcoming any difficulties.

I'm sure the Swiss (or British engineers) can come up with solutions for how to wire the route but the question is whether the plans would be viable. The Swiss have a lot more money than us so what's viable for them may be unaffordable for us.

 

[craigybagel]

*Third rail*?

What planet are they on?

It strikes me that Crewe-Chester has a good case for OHLE. If it's *that* expensive, it needs some thought as to design.

Absolutely, possibly the straightest least obstructive piece of track. Easy (as easy as it can be ) to electrify .

Lots and lots of unusually low bridges, and the aforementioned tunnel under a canal. If it was such an easy fix do you think it wouldn't have been done already? It's been suggested in the past it might be cheaper to just build an entirely new line then to rebuild this line to the standard required for OHLE.

 

[Requeststop]

I'm sure the Swiss (or British engineers) can come up with solutions for how to wire the route but the question is whether the plans would be viable. The Swiss have a lot more money than us so what's viable for them may be unaffordable for us.

Nice of you to reply to my musings. I think with the Swiss, it is that they have the desire to make their infrastructure work. We Brits, just dream and talk and talk; We don't have the desire. If we put the Swiss in charge of a project such as the North West & Wales cross-border alliance, all that the OP listed would be completed by 2030-35, and they'd be discussing as to how to improve the system.

 

[PR1Berske]

Switzerland has more money than we do, and a far more logical regional government structure. Something like the continually discussed NW coast electrification would exist as a discussion within a very different framework.

 

[Philip]

*Third rail*?

What planet are they on?

It strikes me that Crewe-Chester has a good case for OHLE. If it's *that* expensive, it needs some thought as to design.

The big obstacle as I said earlier is the short tunnel under the canal at Christleton. The bore is very tight in height clearance so I doubt even the pantograph would fit. The problem is the canal isn't much higher so as things are I doubt they could increase the height of the bore without disturbing the canal bed. The two locks nearby, either side of the tunnel, would have to be rebuilt so as to increase the height of the pound in between which crosses the railway. (ie. make Greenfield lock deeper and Christleton lock above it shallower, so the level of the canal beyond remains the same)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The big obstacle as I said earlier is the short tunnel under the canal at Christleton. The bore is very tight in height clearance so I doubt even the pantograph would fit. The problem is the canal isn't much higher so as things are I doubt they could increase the height of the bore without disturbing the canal bed. The two locks nearby, either side of the tunnel, would have to be rebuilt so as to increase the height of the pound in between which crosses the railway. (ie. make Greenfield lock deeper and Christleton lock above it shallower, so the level of the canal beyond remains the same)

Could the track be lowered, at least enough to put a non-powered section of wire/overhead rail in place and call it a neutral section?

 

[6Gman]

Absolutely, possibly the straightest least obstructive piece of track. Easy (as easy as it can be ) to electrify .

The track isn't the problem; it's the bridges and tunnels!

 

[6Gman]

Could the track be lowered, at least enough to put a non-powered section of wire/overhead rail in place and call it a neutral section?

Isn't the tunnel already susceptible to flooding? Lowering it would make that worse.

 

[6Gman]

I'm sure the Swiss (or British engineers) can come up with solutions for how to wire the route but the question is whether the plans would be viable.

For most of the day the North Wales Coast timetable consists of what? A three-car Llandudno-Manchester and a two-car Holyhead-Cardiff/Birmingham?

Does that suggest a passenger volume to justify electrification?

 

[sw1ller]

For most of the day the North Wales Coast timetable consists of what? A three-car Llandudno-Manchester and a two-car Holyhead-Cardiff/Birmingham?

Does that suggest a passenger volume to justify electrification?

Summer and winter are not comparable. It can take 15 minutes to load a train at Chester in the summer. You don’t see them numbers (as much) in the winter. I don’t think that alone justifies electrification but something needs to be done. You can’t keep treating passengers like sardines.