Discussion of transgender issues

[cactustwirly]

Gender is completely independent of sex.

No it's not!
The Gender role of the mother, ie female is based on the biological fact that the female is the one that gives birth to a child. Just an example where it is.

Seek and ye shall find:
http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Sex

That defintion literally makes no sense, it doesn't answer my question anyway.

Thats the problem with "gender non binary", it makes no sense.
What do you call someone who is "non binary"? He? She? It?
How do you then describe their gender?

 

[najaB]

The Gender role of the mother, ie female is based on the biological fact that the female is the one that gives birth to a child.

That's not gender, that's biology.

 

[EM2]

What do you call someone who is "non binary"? He? She? It?
How do you then describe their gender?

You could try asking them?

 

[cactustwirly]

That's not gender, that's biology.

It's both, a mother is also a "gender role".
Who looks after the children if it isn't the mother?

 

[cactustwirly]

You could try asking them?

So basically you don't know either.

 

[najaB]

Who looks after the children if it isn't the mother?

Uhm... a father, a grandparent, an aunt/uncle, a nanny...

 

[EM2]

So basically you don't know either.

Because it's that person's personal preference.

 

[AlterEgo]

What do people think of the Girl Guides Movement allowing trans gender boys to join and allowing them to shower in the same showers as girls. Could this be a safeguarding issue ?

I don’t think that should happen, mainly because it’ll make young girls feel uncomfortable.

 

[AlterEgo]

It depends what you mean. Gender Neutral Prefixes (Zher, Zhey, etc) are a bit over the top for my liking, Gender Neutral bathrooms and the like I've got no issue with at all.

Indeed. In fact there are loads of gender neutral toilets already. I used two today, on a plane and one on a train.

 

[AlterEgo]

You could try asking them?

Why bother if you aren’t going to recognise a made-up pronoun or gender reference anyway, like “zirself” or “per”?

 

[HainultLoop]

Thats the problem with "gender non binary", it makes no sense.
What do you call someone who is "non binary"? He? She? It?
How do you then describe their gender?

Non-binary just means to be removed from the idea of 'masculine' and 'feminine', to not want to feel constricted within these two genders. One who is non-binary may be genderfluid (feel both masculine and feminine) or be totally removed and unattached to the idea of 'masculine' and 'feminine'.

'They' works fine for pronouns.

 

[najaB]

What do people think of the Girl Guides Movement allowing trans gender boys to join and allowing them to shower in the same showers as girls. Could this be a safeguarding issue ?

It could be a safeguarding issue, but is it any more so than than allowing people to shower together based on solely on biological sex? Which presents the greater 'risk' to young girls: a transgender girl or a lesbian girl?

Completely independent? Is that a scientifically settled fact?

I'm not at all sure that it is.

I don't think it is either. Biological sex is a strong indicator of gender identity.

 

[EM2]

Why bother if you aren’t going to recognise a made-up pronoun or gender reference anyway, like “zirself” or “per”?

Why would I not recognise them? If that's what someone prefers to be be called, that's what I would do.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think personally if someone wants to go around and tell people they are the opposite gender, let them. Who am I to tell them otherwise?!

But in my humble opinion, you are what you are born as. It can’t be the case of a woman being born with a penis or vice versa. I mean, the voice break, the menstration, the egg cell, the sperm cell, the breasts! I have always believed men and women are equal and should be treated as such, but there is a physical difference. You can have fake bosoms planted, you can have sexual organisms fitted - but these are not yours are they! They didn’t naturally spawn on you! It is physically impossible for a human body to change sex, and that is not transphobia, that is science.

Nevertheless I believe transgender people should have their opinions respected - but a man who transgenders to a woman - is a man going by the title of a woman. And if they want to call themselves a woman, who am I to stop them! Good on you.

But even a trans man who gets a sex change - is a man, with a vagina, or a woman, with a penis.
The body you are born with can be cosmetically modified but that is cosmetics, it is not you.

I don’t think that should happen, mainly because it’ll make young girls feel uncomfortable.

I’m sorry, but I definitely agree here. And vice-versa. I mean, last year when I was at school, this girl in the year above suddenly walked into the guys toilets. She still completely looked like a girl, patent shows, long hair in a black scrunchie, even a skirt. I was shocked purely because I thought a girl had walked in. I said nothing because I wanted to mind my own business, but when another dude asked her what she was doing in there she replied that she was now a boy… And I’m pretty sure it was awkward for guys to use urinals in front of someone was born and who still appeared to be a girl...

I’m fairly sure naked showers don’t happen at schools in the 21st century anymore, they’ve never existed at any schools I’ve been to (just as well as I would flatly refuse to use them) - but I can imagine if young girls were showering it wouldn’t be fair to them to have a boy (with a penis) showering with them surely? It would surely unnerve them, just as @AlterEgo said.

Anyway that’s my humble opinion. Not wanting to cause offence in anyway - It’s just the truth.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why would I not recognise them? If that's what someone prefers to be be called, that's what I would do.

Of course you should recognise their name, even if it is an adopted name in a trans- or neutral gender. But I don’t think you should have to change up your whole pronoun game for someone. She/he/it/they are all perfectly sufficient.

 

[EM2]

But I don’t think you should have to change up your whole pronoun game for someone.

Well that's completely your decision. I personally think it's rather crass, but there you go.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well that's completely your decision. I personally think it's rather crass, but there you go.

I’m all for respecting and protecting people’s rights to live in whatever gender role they want. I don’t want to have to remember a dozen invented extra pronouns, like co, zir, ey, seir, hir, peh, thon, ve and so on in my native language. I’m not going to be able to remember them in the same way I can remember names (I had to look all those up) and it’s unreasonable to ask the overwhelming majority of the population to make this adjustment for a tiny minority. We already have she, he and they. That’s quite sufficient to describe people of either gender or none at all. The idea of invented pronouns is a fringe idea in the trans community and is unhelpful.

If you want to change gender or live in a gender role I will happily support that, I will fight for people’s rights as equal citizens in that regard and I will oppose people like Trump who want to undermine those rights.

But I’m not using “zirself” or any other invented term.

 

[najaB]

We already have she, he and they. That’s quite sufficient to describe people of either gender or none at all. The idea of invented pronouns is a fringe idea in the trans community and is unhelpful.

I tend to agree. I will try to use the pronouns that a person uses to refer to themself, but if I can't remember I'm going to use he, she or they with apologies for any offence taken.

 

[Bromley boy]

Because it's that person's personal preference.

But surely at some point fact and biological reality have to trump personal preference.

If I want to regard myself as female, the Dali Lama or Jesus Christ for that matter, should I have the right to require other people to regard me as such, just because that’s my preference, even when that isn’t the physical reality*?

Well that's completely your decision. I personally think it's rather crass, but there you go.

Crass?

Do you regularly ask around your social circle to check their favoured gender pronoun?

If someone asks me to call them “zirself” or similar, I will politely decline! He or she is perfectly sufficient for 99.9% of the population.

*as a male, I’m afraid having my testicles removed wouldn’t change the biological reality, despite what some trans activists might say.

 

[najaB]

*as a male, I’m afraid having my testicles removed wouldn’t change the biological reality, despite what some trans activists might say.

I don't think any credible trans 'activist' (?) would say that since gender identity and the presence/absence of certain organs have anything to do with each other.

 

[Bromley boy]

If you want to change gender or live in a gender role I will happily support that, I will fight for people’s rights as equal citizens in that regard

So would I, to a point.

If I had a daughter in the girl guides I wouldn’t particularly want a “cis-gender”
bloke from the scouts going into the ladies with her, though.

 

[EM2]

If I want to regard myself as female, the Dali Lama or Jesus Christ for that matter, should I have the right to require other people to regard me as such, just because that’s my preference, even when that isn’t the physical reality*?

Apart from the Dalai Lama, who is one specific living person, why shouldn't you have that right, as long as you are happy to live as a female or as Jesus Christ?

Crass?

Do you regularly ask around your social circle to check their favoured gender pronoun?

Of those in my social circle that I know to be transgender, yes.

 

[Bromley boy]

I don't think any credible trans 'activist' (?) would say that since gender identity and the presence/absence of certain organs have anything to do with each other.

You’d like to think so wouldn’t you!? But then you read tweets like this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/munroebergdorf/status/954775972863193088?lang=en

Not all women have reproductive systems, not all women have a vagina, not all women's vagina's are pink. Think about your message, use your voice for ALL women. Not just yourself.

The statement “not all women have a vagina”... I can only assume that means some women must have a penis? Blimey. Think about that statement for a minute....

Is that activist credible? Based on the above you’d assume not, but then you read how they have been invited to advise the Labour Party.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...et-children-choose-their-own-gender-mgw9bw9rs

Bergdorf announced her new role of LGBT+ adviser to the shadow equalities secretary, Dawn Butler, last week by posting a photograph of herself with Jeremy Corbyn.

I find that genuinely frightening.

 

[EM2]

The statement “not all women have a vagina”... I can only assume that means some women must have a penis? Blimey. Think about that statement for a minute....

What is so ridiculous about it? People can have all sorts of supernumerary body parts, why is it so difficult to believe that a female can have a penis, or even that a male can be born without one?

 

[alxndr]

The vast majority of trans people just want to get on with their lives in a way that enables them to feel comfortable. They just want to be seen as their preferred gender; they don't want special treatment, or special pronouns, just to be treated with the respect that you would hope any human being could expect to be extended to them. Although physical appearance shouldn't be a requirement for respect, when it comes to a great many trans people you wouldn't know if they passed you on the street, worked with you every day, or otherwise interacted with you, except perhaps if you were about to get into bed with them or they chose to disclose. Those whose physical appearance means that this isn't an option for them as they get "clocked" are often quite distressed about the fact.

Should we let the small—but increasingly vocal—minority who want something more to be allowed to detract from those who just want to get on with their lives in peace and comfort? I don't think so, but that's what happens when we lump everyone in together just because they share some sort of label and fixate on the extremes.

 

[Bromley boy]

Apart from the Dalai Lama, who is one specific living person, why shouldn't you have that right, as long as you are happy to live as a female or as Jesus Christ?

So, if I tell you I’m Jesus Christ, you’re happy to regard me as if I am?

If I tell you I’m 15 years younger than I actually am, you’ll regard me as if I am?

If I tell you I’m black (I’m white), you’ll regard me as if I am?

why is it so difficult to believe that a female can have a penis, or even that a male can be born without one?

It’s difficult for me to believe a female can have a penis. Yes.

In the same way as it’s difficult to believe someone who tells me they’re they’re Jesus Christ, or that they’re 15 years younger than they really are...

I doubt many people would disagree with the above!

 

[EM2]

So, if I tell you I’m Jesus Christ, you’re happy to regard me as if I am?

If I tell you I’m 15 years younger than I actually am, you’ll regard me as if I am?

If I tell you I’m black (I’m white), you’ll regard me as if I am?

If you want me to, yes. Why shouldn't I? But I will treat you as you represent.
Let's say, for argument's sake, that you are born in 1990 so by the calendar you are twenty-eight years old. If you tell me that you are fifteen years younger, then I'd expect to see you not drinking alcohol, not smoking, not driving a car, and only doing a paper round.
But if you tell me that you're Jesus Christ, I'm afraid that I don't believe that you exist

 

[Bromley boy]

If you want me to, yes. Why shouldn't I? But I will treat you as you represent.
Let's say, for argument's sake, that you are born in 1990 so by the calendar you are twenty-eight years old. If you tell me that you are fifteen years younger, then I'd expect to see you not drinking alcohol, not smoking, not driving a car, and only doing a paper round.
But if you tell me that you're Jesus Christ, I'm afraid that I don't believe that you exist

I wish I was 28 years old, so please regard me as such .

But seriously, where does this end? Can I “represent” that I earned less than I did last year and claim a tax refund?

That sounds like a great cloud cuckoo land to live in! But there comes a point where factual reality is being denied, and black is being called white.

And despite what some trans activists may say, 99.9% of the human population can tell you that women don’t have penises.

If stating that fact makes me un PC or a bigot, so be it, where do I sign up?!

 

[tony_mac]

That sounds like a great cloud cuckoo land to live in! But there comes a point where factual reality is being denied, and black is being called white.

It may not necessarily be the point of the statements you are complaining about, but are you aware of intersex conditions?

 

[Bromley boy]

are you aware of intersex conditions?

Intersex?

Now that you mention it, no I’m not. Should I be?!

I didn’t think that that was possible.

Maybe because I’m bamboozled from being told that gender is completely separate from sex!