Driverless trains so good drivers re-introduced on line in Singapore

[TheEdge]

One of the many poster boys used by the people who love to tell drivers how its any day we will all be out of the job has been so successful without drivers that drivers have been introduced on lines designed from day one to be driverless.

http://www.stcars.sg/guides-article...less-mrt-trains-to-improve-reliability-148107

SINGAPORE - In a case where humans are still superior to machines, Singapore's driverless MRT lines are now being manned to raise reliability.

SBS Transit, which operates the North East and Downtown lines, told The Straits Times it started manning every North-East Line (NEL) train last October. NEL was the world's first driverless heavy-rail system when it opened in 2003.

SBS Transit spokesman Tammy Tan said it initially manned NEL trains during peak hours and on every other train, but "we reviewed the arrangements and now we have someone on board every train throughout operational hours".

"We have staff on board our driverless trains not only as a reassurance to commuters, but also for operational contingency," she told The Straits Times, adding that trained staff on board makes for quicker service recovery.

SMRT is also doing the same for the Circle Line - the other driverless MRT system in Singapore.

So yes, driverless trains all over the UK network are just round the corner.

Discuss and argue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That sounds like DLR style “guards” able to drive in emergencies, not drivers.

“Guard only operation” is how I see the future of ATO in the UK, not completely unstaffed trains.

Also of note is that staff are cheap in SG.

 

[Monty]

Washington DC's metro network is another example that went from an ATO based system to conventional control by drivers after several crashes. Not a great example of a Mass Transit System, but it makes for interesting reading.

 

[hexagon789]

Washington DC's metro network is another example that went from an ATO based system to conventional control by drivers after several crashes. Not a great example of a Mass Transit System, but it makes for interesting reading.

I seem to recall reading that the original Victoria line ATO system wasn't too accurate on stopping in the right place and so far from drivers not having to do much driving as such, the had to keep a hand ready to apply the emergency brake if the ATO was likely to overshoot the platform.

 

[paolo]

CBTC can stay closer in moving block, align perfectly with platform edge doors faster and more accurately, and run much closer to track speed limits (humans err towards a larger safe margin).

But computers still can’t beat humans for overall operational safety - determining when to close doors, managing evacuation etc.

For the tube at least, I’d be very surprised if they ever go staffless.

 

[Bromley boy]

This topic has come up before.

The general consensus always seems to be “eventually”, but looking at NR modernisation plans it’s difficult to see when.

For one thing the digital railway programme (which makes no mention of driverless technology) is projected to take 25-30 years and only once ERTMS is on every line will ATO (let alone driverless) be introduced on a widespread basis.

“Guard only operation” is how I see the future of ATO in the UK, not completely unstaffed trains.

Perhaps you’re right, but the next question is how far in the future do you believe that will be?

If you’re not going staffless the savings won’t be that great (DLR train captains earn less than drivers, but more than most traditional guards), so that rather undermines the case for going “driverless”, from a purely cost perspective.

 

[superhands]

I was reading a piece about the ATO on the Central Line from a few years back and the ATO had 7 SPAD's

 

[yorkie]

I was reading a piece about the ATO on the Central Line from a few years back and the ATO had 7 SPAD's

Which is meaningless on its own. What was the cause of the SPADs? In what time period? How many would reasonably be expected on an equivalent manually driven route?

 

[paolo]

A quick google brings out this. Which, in context, presents things in a very different light. Look at the SPAD numbers for manual operation vs ATO.

(And that's even before the point that, if we're talking about the future of rapid transit at least, I'd argue that it's CBTC that should be the benchmark, not the older ATO stuff).

"With that said, neither the automated Jubilee nor Northern Lines suffered a single Signal Passed At Danger (SPAD) incident, which is the railway version of driving through a red traffic light. Of the 440 Category A SPADs reported on the Tube during the year, 173 occurred on the manually-driven Piccadilly Line* – closely followed by 113 on the District Line. Somehow, ten took place on the automated Central Line as well, but these were mostly in low-speed depot areas. A total of 14 SPADs happened in depots."

Source:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/..._750_times_automatic_train_operation_failure/

 

[superhands]

Thanks for finding that Paolo.
I think some of the spad's on the piccadilly was poor signal sighting braking distance too short. The central line ones show that computers are not prefect and mistakes still happen

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps you’re right, but the next question is how far in the future do you believe that will be?

Good question. Clearly ATO is already possible, but the kind of ATO where this would make real sense (branch lines and the likes not suitable for DOO) are going to take a while. I'd expect technically its feasibility will roughly parallel self-driving car technology as it would use similar concepts.

If you’re not going staffless the savings won’t be that great (DLR train captains earn less than drivers, but more than most traditional guards), so that rather undermines the case for going “driverless”, from a purely cost perspective.

That does depends on the context. On a branch line getting rid of the driver and giving the guard a pay rise would save more money than even going DOO, because you wouldn't, for example, need TVMs at branch stations. And most of the public who don't like DOO on personal safety grounds would have reduced objection because they still have their member of staff in the passenger compartment.

 

[gordonthemoron]

how many 'driverless' trains are driven remotely by humans like Nuremburg U2 & U3?

 

[Bletchleyite]

how many 'driverless' trains are driven remotely by humans like Nuremburg U2 & U3?

Are they actually *driven* remotely i.e. manual acceleration and braking, or are they just signalled manually and perhaps the doors operated via CCTV?

 

[gordonthemoron]

Are they actually *driven* remotely i.e. manual acceleration and braking, or are they just signalled manually and perhaps the doors operated via CCTV?

All the former U bahn drivers were redeployed to drive the trains remotely. How much is automatic is another matter as the trains are very good at stopping in the correct place at stations. I think basically it allowed them to double the number of services. U1 has 8 car trains every 10 minutes, U2 & U3 have 4 car trains every 5 minutes