Arriva Rail North DOO

[Robertj21a]

"Hardly any jobs are what you'd call safe" . What absolute gibberish.

I've driven trains for a long time now, but I was a coded welder before. Of course my certification has long run out but I could get back into that industry tomorrow if I wanted to.

So, how safe are these jobs?, bricklayer, plasterer, roofer, electrician, plumber, gas fitter, joiner, painter/decorator, and many asociated roles in building and construction, not forgetting civil engineering, gardener, car mechanic and many other roles in the motor trade, hundreds if not thousands of different types of jobs in engineering, solicitors, teachers, accountants, nurses, care workers, many other roles within NHS, chefs, cleaners,office staff, etc etc etc. All jobs you would expect to find within an acceptable travelling time from wherever you live in the UK.
No need with any of the above jobs ( and many many more) to totally retrain or have the need to move to the other end of the country to find work if you don't want to.
Unless of course you live in RailUK cloud cuckoo land.

I think you've probably misunderstood the context of what I was trying to say to Dave 1987.

 

[northwichcat]

bricklayer, plasterer, roofer, electrician, plumber, gas fitter, joiner, painter/decorator, and many asociated roles in building and construction, not forgetting civil engineering, gardener, car mechanic and many other roles in the motor trade, hundreds if not thousands of different types of jobs in engineering, solicitors, teachers, accountants, nurses, care workers, many other roles within NHS, chefs, cleaners,office staff, etc etc etc. All jobs you would expect to find within an acceptable travelling time from wherever you live in the UK.
Unless of course you live in RailUK cloud cuckoo land.

You'd be lucky to find plumber, painter/decorator, gardener etc. job adverts in many areas. If you want that kind of work you quite often have to be self-employed i.e. buy your own van and tools and hope there's plenty of work out there. In some cases you can join a franchise (such as Jim's Mowing) and hope the fee paid provides value for money.

And as for cleaning jobs, if you can get one that gives you over 20 hours worth of work per week without having to work 7 days or being on a zero hour contract then you're very lucky.

Office staff - that's even vaguer than saying transport staff!

 

[northwichcat]

It doesn't mean stripping the majority of the second crew member's training and competence is a good thing or a necessity on the newer train however.

Agreed but it doesn't mean everything should automatically stay the same either.

 

[Carlisle]

one of the factors that has decreased pay and job insecurity is the high level of low skilled immigration since 2004. .

Maybe, but probably a relatively minor factor, given the UK had over 3 million unemployed in the early 1980s, with less population technology/automation, little open immigration compared with today and Central & Eastern Europe.still mostly behind the iron curtain

 

[HowardGWR]

Am I reading a thread about Arriva Rail North DOO?

 

[Dentonian]

And me as a civil servant. Despite being theoretically permenant most civil servants can be made redundant relatively easily, although at the cost of one months salary per year served up to a maximum of 36 months salary. I am not convinced that their will be compulsory redundancies in a growing industry. Natural wastage alone can reduce the head count by 4-5% a year even with very long lengths of service. I think some (generally older) guards really don't help the collegues through having little interest in customer service, thinking they are better than it. It really doesn't endear sympathy, I have worked around plenty of grumpy middle aged people stuck in jobs they don’t like, don't make an effort to do more than the bare minimum but that stay in them for decades for pay, pension and security. I have zero wish to support people like that. The majority of guards that actually like interaction with passengers are let down by a minority who don't seem to understand that they aren’t entitled to have things their way.

Going off-topic (inevitably), but surely you mean one *week's* salary for every year of service, or do you work for National Government approx 200 miles SE of where the name "Chester1" suggests you reside/work? I work in the public sector - not too many miles from Chester - and our agreement is 1 week's salary and always has been. We also don't have a voluntary redundancy roll (ie. compulsory only) and we aren't allowed access to pensions built up under a previous employer (but still in the LGPS) until normal retirement age. But yes, I agree with your sentiments (and PR1Berske's), those who think the Public Sector (away from Whitehall, at least) is a cushy number, want to stop burying their heads in the London Press or Top Gear magazine, and wake up to the real world. It isn't 1979, any more.

 

[Dentonian]

Am I reading a thread about Arriva Rail North DOO?

The issues connected with same; Yes, you are.

 

[coppercapped]

As people have tried to say, over and over again, hardly any jobs are what most people would call 'safe'. It doesn't really matter where you are, or what you do, that job can be gone within a short space of time (i.e takeovers/mergers, insolvency etc). The best protection is to have sufficient skills to transfer to other roles, other industries, other parts of the country - or whatever it takes to give you on-going employment.
It really is very difficult to see why so many people can't seem to understand this simple concept.

In spite of comments to the contrary, this is really how it is.

In the business that I am most familiar with there were two large companies which essentially 'owned' mobile telecommunications - Motorola which almost invented mobile phones and Nokia which ran with the international GSM standard. The companies were seen as fixtures in the mobile universe.

Within a decade they had vanished.

In this country GEC made some disastrous decisions regarding entering the US telecomms market - and vanished.

Between them Leonard Lord, William Morris, 'Red Robbo' and the Toyota production system killed the British-owned motor manufacturing industry. Longbridge is now a housing estate.

Technology and markets change - and the jobs that go with them. There is not much call for powder monkeys, stevedores on the dockside or stable boys in every high street these days. Whether one likes it or not, whether one wishes it were otherwise - things change.

 

[LowLevel]

Going off-topic (inevitably), but surely you mean one *week's* salary for every year of service, or do you work for National Government approx 200 miles SE of where the name "Chester1" suggests you reside/work? I work in the public sector - not too many miles from Chester - and our agreement is 1 week's salary and always has been. We also don't have a voluntary redundancy roll (ie. compulsory only) and we aren't allowed access to pensions built up under a previous employer (but still in the LGPS) until normal retirement age. But yes, I agree with your sentiments (and PR1Berske's), those who think the Public Sector (away from Whitehall, at least) is a cushy number, want to stop burying their heads in the London Press or Top Gear magazine, and wake up to the real world. It isn't 1979, any more.

1 month up to 21 months under the current scheme I believe. Incidentally I was a national government civil servant and never set foot in London or the South East while so employed - there's UK Civil Service offices nationally and they include everyone employed in Jobcentres for example.

 

[B&I]

As people have tried to say, over and over again, hardly any jobs are what most people would call 'safe'. It doesn't really matter where you are, or what you do, that job can be gone within a short space of time (i.e takeovers/mergers, insolvency etc). The best protection is to have sufficient skills to transfer to other roles, other industries, other parts of the country - or whatever it takes to give you on-going employment.
It really is very difficult to see why so many people can't seem to understand this simple concept.

There is a difference between understanding it and liking it

 

[B&I]

Again, protecting current staff is different to maintaining staffing levels for the sake of national employment rates or union subscriptions.

My job has some security but the real security comes from transferable skills, which I am slowly building up. Your argument would be more convincing if there were not plenty of people staying in secure jobs that they have lost interest in, constantly moan about and feel hard done by but won't change because deep down they know they are fortunate. Not saying that you at all but I bet you have worked with people like that. Average pay has dropped slightly in real terms since the crash but unemployment is also lower. There is a trade off between workers rights, productivity and unemployment levels. France has double digit unemployment levels but higher productivity and more job protection. When its really difficult and expense to fire people or make them redundant then organisations will only employ new staff as a last resort. Its good for people with jobs but means more people don't have one. At risk of getting into a further tangent, one of the factors that has decreased pay and job insecurity is the high level of low skilled immigration since 2004. Hopefully in the long term OBS should be reasonable secure through a relative shortage of people prepared to commit long term to a £20-22k job which has more responsibility than most customer service jobs. OBS can be very valuable, I suspect some of the guards that oppose the change are partly motivated by not really liking customer service and I have zero sympathy.

Btw - I don't support DOO on Northern as things stand, I think there needs to be a lot of money spent to make it safe. I support it for Merseyrail because like the Merseyside Labour party I think its safe there with the new trains.

Actually that dpes describe me becaise i spent 5 years studying to get into the job I do, then 15 years doing it, and I think it's a waste of.my time and everyone else's to require me to retrain for something else that I am unlikely to be as good at. My job is becoming obsolete not because the need for it has been surpassed by technology, but because the people who hold the pursestrings want to pay themselves more and other people less. The fact that the product they offer to their customers is steadily becoming poorer (and more expensive) does not matter when there are £5 million salaries to be had. And this is the underlying reason why so many things in this country are getting worse.

As for the other points, the conflict between employment numbers and productivity is because of the long-term ecobomic stagnation in which maby countries have found themselves meaning there is insufficient activity fo keep the population occupied. There may be a lot of different reasons for that, but at least one is misapplication of capital away from useful activities, to.profoundly useless ones, such as continually inflating house prices, and financial speculation for the benefit of a handful of people.

 

[PR1Berske]

There is a difference between understanding it and liking it

And with specific regard to Arriva's proposal, there's a difference between disliking and ignoring. DOO is going to happen, for many of the reasons outlined above from franchise committments to natural changes in service delivery. The RMT could have discussed how to get the best deal from the transition to DOO. That would have been, for me, the mature thing to do.

The RMT position is going to see members stuck on page 1 for years to come, and ordinary passengers stuck on platforms for that matter, while the industry tootles on without them.

 

[Dentonian]

1 month up to 21 months under the current scheme I believe. Incidentally I was a national government civil servant and never set foot in London or the South East while so employed - there's UK Civil Service offices nationally and they include everyone employed in Jobcentres for example.

Well, that's an eye opener. It's been 1 week per year for the 38 years I've been around Local Government in GM, albeit there was one occasion (can't remember if 1986 or 1993) when it was increased to 2 weeks for volunteers, due to a distinct lack therof and to avoid a big confrontation with the Unions over compulsory redundancies. NB. The scrapping of the Voluntary Redundancy "roll" was after 1993.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Well, that's an eye opener. It's been 1 week per year for the 38 years I've been around Local Government in GM, albeit there was one occasion (can't remember if 1986 or 1993) when it was increased to 2 weeks for volunteers, due to a distinct lack therof and to avoid a big confrontation with the Unions over compulsory redundancies. NB. The scrapping of the Voluntary Redundancy "roll" was after 1993.

I doubt it was 1986: arguably the biggest cock-up (of many) made by GMT at de-regulation was getting rid of far too many staff some of whom were back within a few weeks. That does rather suggest that they were not short of volunteers for redundancy.

 

[Carlisle]

I believe those who pay for their own training should be rewarded with higher salaries if the risk of paying for their own training pays off - complet.

That’s a fair point, but it might be tricky to introduce for train driving given there’s only a dozen or so potential UK employers whereas if I pay to qualify as a bus driver or teacher there’s probably at least several hundred in both areas or I could go self employed/ freelance .

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

That’s a fair point, but it might be tricky to introduce for train driving given there’s only a dozen or so potential UK employers whereas if I pay to qualify as a bus driver or teacher there’s probably at least several hundred in both areas or I could go self employed/ freelance .

More to the point is that there are (comparatively) so many different types of traction requiring individual driver qualification that a train driver's certification is not terribly "portable". Whereas a type rating for, say, the Airbus A320 is good for any airline using it anywhere in the world. It may be an aspiration of the EU to create a European-wide "market" for train drivers but it's difficult to see it ever being achieved in any meaningful way.

 

[Bevan Price]

I don’t see what other option Govt/ Dft really have right now given the unions current position is so entrenched. They either keep trying in a similar manner or back down

That is the mistake that Scargill and the miners made - they thought they were indispensible and that the government would have to back down. They didn't, and we know what happened to the coal industry. Indeed, I suspect some tories are content to see the disputes continue, as it gives them another excuse to criticise Corbyn and Labour for supporting the unions.

 

[Bromley boy]

The RMT position is going to see members stuck on page 1 for years to come, and ordinary passengers stuck on platforms for that matter, while the industry tootles on without them.

This is a valid point. Looking at the GTR situation the RMT has done the OBSs who were formally guards a massive disservice by refusing to recognise the new grade.

 

[muz379]

As people have tried to say, over and over again, hardly any jobs are what most people would call 'safe'. It doesn't really matter where you are, or what you do, that job can be gone within a short space of time (i.e takeovers/mergers, insolvency etc). The best protection is to have sufficient skills to transfer to other roles, other industries, other parts of the country - or whatever it takes to give you on-going employment.
It really is very difficult to see why so many people can't seem to understand this simple concept.

I have no issue with the fact that jobs dont last forever .

But I would ask who is going to pay for people to have sufficient skills in reserve just to transfer to other jobs in other industries .I would love it if the government would loan me the money to do another degree or some vocational training to add to the qualifications ive already got , just in case I cant get a job with the skills from working as a guard or from the degree I completed years ago .

I fundamentally disagree with your suggestion that people should just move around the country chasing a job . Im sorry but that is just not realistic . People settle in areas , make families and have other arrangements which makes moving at the drop of a hat unpractical at best . Personally in my current situation I would have no issue moving to find another job , indeed it is something I am considering , but I can understand why many of my colleagues simply do not have this option .

.

 

[Chester1]

This is a valid point. Looking at the GTR situation the RMT has done the OBSs who were formally guards a massive disservice by refusing to recognise the new grade.

And shot themselves in the foot too. Until they recognise the grade there is not much point to OBS joining the RMT which will slowly weaken their power as former guards leave or retire.

 

[Chester1]

I have no issue with the fact that jobs dont last forever .

But I would ask who is going to pay for people to have sufficient skills in reserve just to transfer to other jobs in other industries .I would love it if the government would loan me the money to do another degree or some vocational training to add to the qualifications ive already got , just in case I cant get a job with the skills from working as a guard or from the degree I completed years ago .

I fundamentally disagree with your suggestion that people should just move around the country chasing a job . Im sorry but that is just not realistic . People settle in areas , make families and have other arrangements which makes moving at the drop of a hat unpractical at best . Personally in my current situation I would have no issue moving to find another job , indeed it is something I am considering , but I can understand why many of my colleagues simply do not have this option .

.

Not all jobs are proffessions or vocations that require qualifications. Many jobs basically require the IT competance and people skills. The main obstacle to people transfering to those kind of jobs is attitude not money. A good OBS would be able to get decent pay outside the railways. I think some people are stuck with view of the job market immediately after the crash and think if they lose their guard job they will end up on a zero hours contract in a shop. I guess if you live in Grimsby etc that may happen but anyone near the major cities should be fine. Its irrelevant if the DFT pronises to keep OBS in a future franchises.

I agree that people should not be expected to move for work but with the exception of young people without commitments. Its not unreasonable to have a situation where many people move to cities for their first full time jobs, moving back home in their late 20s.

 

[Robertj21a]

I have no issue with the fact that jobs dont last forever .

But I would ask who is going to pay for people to have sufficient skills in reserve just to transfer to other jobs in other industries .I would love it if the government would loan me the money to do another degree or some vocational training to add to the qualifications ive already got , just in case I cant get a job with the skills from working as a guard or from the degree I completed years ago .

I fundamentally disagree with your suggestion that people should just move around the country chasing a job . Im sorry but that is just not realistic . People settle in areas , make families and have other arrangements which makes moving at the drop of a hat unpractical at best . Personally in my current situation I would have no issue moving to find another job , indeed it is something I am considering , but I can understand why many of my colleagues simply do not have this option .

.

My comment was simply that people may need to move around the country, just like they may need to re-train, work in a different industry etc. The emphasis was clearly on 'may' - as indeed has been necessary for many people (me included).

 

[Dentonian]

I doubt it was 1986: arguably the biggest cock-up (of many) made by GMT at de-regulation was getting rid of far too many staff some of whom were back within a few weeks. That does rather suggest that they were not short of volunteers for redundancy.

Thinking about it, it was 1993. I'm intrigued about what you see as the "many" cock-ups GMT made at De-reg. Would you care to refresh our memories, bearing in mind I was (for one) there at the time?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Thinking about it, it was 1993. I'm intrigued about what you see as the "many" cock-ups GMT made at De-reg. Would you care to refresh our memories, bearing in mind I was (for one) there at the time?

This is way off topic but... re-routing the 59 via Broughton instead of Cheetham Hill and creating the grand circulars of 52 & 53 but then scheduling more buses one way than the other, to name just two. Both brainwaves of the North Area team; no surprise that the next re-organisation abolished the North Area! Methinks you were there in the East Area which actually handled De-regulation quite well. And don't even ask about South Area's running documentation on the Monday morning...

 

[YorkshireLad]

Further strikes confirmed for the 26th and the 29th

 

[PR1Berske]

Further strikes confirmed for the 26th and the 29th

Easter weekend? Then my partner and I might miss out on an event for which we have tickets already booked. Lovely. Thanks, trade union, nice one.

 

[northwichcat]

Easter weekend? Then my partner and I might miss out on an event for which we have tickets already booked. Lovely. Thanks, trade union, nice one.

Second strike is Maundy Thursday, which will be the last day of work before Easter for many. Both dates will coincide with most school holidays.

The union has also demanded tripartite talks with the company and the DfT aimed at reaching a solution.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-further-48-hours-of-strikes9318/

Seems the RMT admin team can do copy and paste as that's what they've done with Mick Cash's statement from previous strikes.

 

[PR1Berske]

Second strike is Maundy Thursday, which will be the last day of work before Easter for Monday. Both dates will coincide with most school holidays.

A cynical assault on ordinary working people. What a position for a Union to place itself!

 

[yorkie]

Easter weekend? Then my partner and I might miss out on an event for which we have tickets already booked. Lovely. Thanks, trade union, nice one.

Their intention is to cause maximum disruption possible so they will not be bothered if it causes people like us inconvenience; that's what they want. They don't care what ordinary people think of them. The company cannot change its course because it is carrying out franchise obligations. So the aim is to cause maximum disruption to put pressure on the DfT. It won't have the desired effect, but they won't ever see sense and nothing any of us can say will make them change their course.

 

[northwichcat]

And that's not all

RAIL UNION RMT will be holding a lobby outside the German Embassy in London, on the first anniversary of Northern members striking to save the role of the safety critical role of a guard, before handing over a letter to the ambassador about the dispute.

The protest will take place on Tues 13th March at 12.30pm at the German Embassy, 23 Belgrave Square, London, SW1X 8PZ.

RMT will be demanding that the German state end their profiteering on UK railways through their rail operation Arriva, which runs the Northern Rail franchise, and is helping to drive the moves to axe guards on the service. The protest will make clear the strength of passenger feeling on the questions of safety and security, as well as union members resolve to carry on the fight in the dispute.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-to-lobby-german-embassy-over-guards9318/