Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[YorkshireBear]

Why are GWR going for Flex's to replace the 387s when actually there is loads of EMUs now available???

 

[bastien]

Why are GWR going for Flex's to replace the 387s when actually there is loads of EMUs now available???

I thought they were replacing 16x diesel units on the line to Gatwick? Or have I misunderstood?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many more? I thought they'd already increased the number from 7 to 9.

I'm sure I recall hearing a figure of about 15, which I guess would mean 6 diagrammed pairs (they don't run alone on the WCML other than in the all too frequent case of short formation due to failure), one on the Abbey line and two spares.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I thought they were replacing 16x diesel units on the line to Gatwick? Or have I misunderstood?

But how does that free up 387s? Unless turbos will be used to replace 387s.

 

[cactustwirly]

But how does that free up 387s? Unless turbos will be used to replace 387s.

It doesn't.

When do the 379s go off lease? Would it not make sense to use these on HEx instead, since they don't need to be modified.

 

[Clarence Yard]

But how does that free up 387s? Unless turbos will be used to replace 387s.

In the short term it does. The current plan, once the 387 conversion run is in full swing, is 769 in on Turbo diagram, Turbo to 387 diagram, 387 to conversion. Pair of 387 converted, take out pair of 332 diagrams. That takes most of 2019 to achieve.

Then once enough 769 are delivered and the full Crossrail timetable is in, Turbos go west.

 

[a_c_skinner]

769s will be replaced by brand new trains by the end of 2019.

Those must be already on order then and not the hydrogen/battery/atomic/Parry people mover/big elastic band solutions that were being speculated about and IIRC anticipated by a minister when the Windermere wires were cancelled.

 

[northwichcat]

Those must be already on order then and not the hydrogen/battery/atomic/Parry people mover/big elastic band solutions that were being speculated about and IIRC anticipated by a minister when the Windermere wires were cancelled.

It'll be 195s (part of the existing order) that'll replace the 769s on Windermere services. The trial of an alternative fueled solution was suggested to be taking place in 2021.

 

[Non Multi]

... Turbo to 387 diagram...

I'm a little surprised that GWR aren't taking the option of running 319s in lieu of 387s, then sending the 319s off to 769 conversion when required. Turbos could then be sent west a little sooner.

 

[TEW]

I'm a little surprised that GWR aren't taking the option of running 319s in lieu of 387s, then sending the 319s off to 769 conversion when required. Turbos could then be sent west a little sooner.

That would involve extra driving training requirements though, and GWR already seem to be behind on the current driving training projects, it is probably not a good idea to make it worse. Running 319s on current 387 diagrams would involve training lots of drivers on 319s for a short period of use. Those drivers already sign Turbos though, so it is easier to put Turbos on the diagrams. Obviously the drivers on 769 routes will require training on them, but this should involve less drivers and is for the long term, rather than just a short term fix.

 

[Non Multi]

That would involve extra driving training requirements though, and GWR already seem to be behind on the current driving training projects, it is probably not a good idea to make it worse. Running 319s on current 387 diagrams would involve training lots of drivers on 319s for a short period of use. Those drivers already sign Turbos though, so it is easier to put Turbos on the diagrams. Obviously the drivers on 769 routes will require training on them, but this should involve less drivers and is for the long term, rather than just a short term fix.

The 319s are here to stay* in slightly modified form, so drivers will need to be trained on them eventually. I personally don't see much point in running Turbos on electric diagrams when there is a greater need for them elsewhere. The conversions to 769s will take a while to complete if current progress is anything to go by.

*Assuming this is, and remains the official plan.

 

[TEW]

Some drivers will need to be trained on them clearly, but not all the drivers that would be necessary to run 319s on the mainline on 387 diagrams. By introducing them only as 769s, on their long term diagrams, any unnecessary training for short term needs only is avoided. I heard that only Reading Depot will need to be trained on 769s, whereas to run them on 387 diagrams several other depots would also need changing.

 

[The_Engineer]

The conversions to 769s will take a while to complete if current progress is anything to go by.

I have not seen any recent promises for delivery dates on the Class 769. Can anyone in the know please let me know a delivery programme has been agreed? Has anyone seen the Class 769s move yet, even within the confines of Brush?? If Northern still do not have any of their allocation yet, what delivery date has been promised to GWR???

 

[td97]

I have not seen any recent promises for delivery dates on the Class 769. Can anyone in the know please let me know a delivery programme has been agreed? Has anyone seen the Class 769s move yet, even within the confines of Brush?? If Northern still do not have any of their allocation yet, what delivery date has been promised to GWR???

Northern were originally supposed to get them in May, but I think that has now been pushed back to Aug 18 according to #1379

I asked an engineer who works for Arriva last week and he said it's been pushed back to August due to problems converting them at Porterbrook. He also said that the delay in getting the 319s would push back the refurbishment/modification of the 15xs

 

[The_Engineer]

Northern were originally supposed to get them in May, but I think that has now been pushed back to Aug 18 according to #1379

Hmmm..... I assume that's deliver to Northern in Aug 18. I can foresee a lot of commissioning and training then being required before any service use........

 

[Clarence Yard]

I have not seen any recent promises for delivery dates on the Class 769. Can anyone in the know please let me know a delivery programme has been agreed? Has anyone seen the Class 769s move yet, even within the confines of Brush?? If Northern still do not have any of their allocation yet, what delivery date has been promised to GWR???

It’s still early days but the GWR sets are provisionally scheduled to appear from February to December 2019.

 

[CapitalStar378]

There must be serious issues as they started on conversions in spring 2017 I believe. The interiors aren't even being refurbished for the ATW order IIRC.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Has it yet been established whether or not these conversions are actually possible?

 

[bastien]

Has it yet been established whether or not these conversions are actually possible?

Indeed, and what's the plan B if the project fails to deliver?

 

[notlob.divad]

Has it yet been established whether or not these conversions are actually possible?

From a couple of pages back:

Southern Electric Group on Facebook have announced 769434 or 769456 will be tested on the Great Central railway in the next few weeks.

I would suggest that the above combined with the extra information from the last few days across numerous threads on this discussion board, would indicate that it is possible.

There has clearly been an issue on the initial design side. I have no information on why that is, but Considering the first two are pretty much prototypes it should come as no surprise. However, the principle of supplying electrical power from an onboard source rather than the third rail is certainly 'possible'.

The bigger question is how will the unit perform in real world conditions after modifications, and for that we can only wait and see the results of the test which do appear to be imminent.

 

[PHILIPE]

No mention on here lately but ATW expecting their 5 x 769s late Summer.

 

[507021]

No mention on here lately but ATW expecting their 5 x 769s late Summer.

That's good. I don't suppose you know which units they're expecting?

 

[PHILIPE]

That's good. I don't suppose you know which units they're expecting?

That's good. I don't suppose you know which units they're expecting?

Not at this stage

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Indeed, and what's the plan B if the project fails to deliver?

Good question...

In an ideal world, a restarted, accelerated and extended electrification programme (with costs somehow brought under-control!) would be a solution to a number of current and looming problems... but in the real world, time is of the essence.


I fear that rather too many eggs have been put in the 769 basket, so if the project fails to deliver we may be rather stuck.
Windermere would presumably stay as-is (minus 185s if they still run, I'm not up to date with services on the wrong side of the hills!) with 156s plus possibly 158s (a few extra on top of those planned for Barrow) which would leave Northern with a shortage somewhere. This could lead to Pacers and 153s being retained for longer, and some sort of derogation being required to prevent cancellations in January 2020.

 

[edwin_m]

That's good. I don't suppose you know which units they're expecting?

Aren't they extra units to provide cover while others are sent away for belated accessibility mods?

 

[Bertie the bus]

It’s still early days but the GWR sets are provisionally scheduled to appear from February to December 2019.

Ahead of the Northern ones then.

 

[Domh245]

I fear that rather too many eggs have been put in the 769 basket, so if the project fails to deliver we may be rather stuck.

If the 769s fail to work, there are a bunch of TOCs with contracts with porterbrook for bi-mode stock so we may see porterbrook forced into ordering new stock, although that will royally spanner the "quick introduction" aspect of the project and potentially put ATW off them.

 

[LOL The Irony]

If the 769s fail to work, there are a bunch of TOCs with contracts with porterbrook for bi-mode stock so we may see porterbrook forced into ordering new stock, although that will royally spanner the "quick introduction" aspect of the project and potentially put ATW off them.

Off their own back as well. We'll probably wind up with bi-mode Civity's if the project fails.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Off their own back as well. We'll probably wind up with bi-mode Civity's if the project fails.

CAF don't appear to offer one, but if they did they would be quite a good thing.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Well that or a mixture of 4 car 195's & 331's.