Completely agree! This would also be combined with allowing people to 'unreserve' (i.e. realise they'll be getting a later/earlier train!) seats, as well as, perhaps on peak services, regulating how many 'may be reserved' seats there are.
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Should Seat Reservations Be Abolished?
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Completely agree! This would also be combined with allowing people to 'unreserve' (i.e. realise they'll be getting a later/earlier train!) seats, as well as, perhaps on peak services, regulating how many 'may be reserved' seats there are.
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
If you mean you have been given an advance ticket for your return journey then you have not got what you asked for, as it is only valid on the train it is booked on. Or you could swap it for a more flexible ticket at a ticket office before the departure time of the booked train, costing £10 plus the difference in ticket prices*. This would be exactly the same if there was no reservation, you could still only use it on that train, but you wouldn't necessarily have a seat.
*I believe Cross Country no longer charges the £10 but I don't know the details.
Not at Euston! Where the platform is announced as little as 5 minutes before departure. So if you're infirm, laden with cases etc ... tough luck!
trainophile
Established Member
Unless you use a website like RTT, although I am starting to have my doubts about that one recently. I have found that if you stroll down the ramp at Euston towards the platform that RTT (or similar) says your train will depart from, you can usually see the electronic display on the side of the train that says what its destination is, departure time and first stopping point. I have also found that the VTWC staff don't try to stop me boarding even if it is a few minutes before the official platform announcement.
It’s frustrating though when, as I did, you spend all Easter weekend trying to get through to the VTWC backoffice to reserve a first class table for a family of four on an open return ticket from Euston, to be eventually given four random seats spread throughout coach J, and then find out on boarding that each of the other first class coaches is completely unreserved! That’s what needs fixing - you can guess where we sat!
43096
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How does the leasing cost for trains they are already leasing affect the decision whether to use them? Or do you mean the maintenance cost in the contract with Siemens?
A good system is to issue priority seat cards to those with disabilities and complex needs who require a priority seat. Which some TOCs now do. And leave the rest unreserved.
As for seat reservations in general a huge problem seems to be allocating seats to passengers on Anytime and off peak tickets who end up travelling on another service. And the numbers for this must be huge.
If the tickets are advance, it makes total sense to reserve them a seat as you know they must travel on that service, or lose the validity of the ticket.
For anytime ticket holders, there's every chance they may travel earlier or later and their booked seat goes empty.
An idea for a system in a new train would be to have some sort of sensor above or below the seats. And if the person isn't present for their seat reservation a few minutes after departing the stations the reservation disappears from the above seat electronic display. And the seat shows unreserved.
It would obviously need to allow breaks of 5 or 10 minutes in case someone has nipped to the buffet or loo during their journey.
Another problem is allocating people on 8 quid advance long distance London tickets a seat, and others on £90 walk up anytime fares have to stand, as the train has become full before they boarded.
I’ve not got it to hand but I think it’s an off peak single valid on numerous services but I have a seat reservation on one particular train.
The maintenance cost that Siemens charges to LNWR is governed directly by the mileage that the fleet accrues. More miles (over a certain band) = More cost
43096
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That is not leasing cost and is not confined to the 350/2 fleet.
Probably why they're not having their lease renewed?
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Deafdoggie
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I think that generally the issue is not so much seat reservations, but electronic systems. Interesting that no one on hear has moaned about GWR for example! Only XC and VWC. No one has moaned about SWT (or whatever they are called now) abolishing them. And very few complaints about LNWR who did the same (when they were LM), so doesn't seem too big an issue if they get abolished.
I thought people paid for flexibility on a walk-up ticket, not the seat reservation. So arguments about cost seem misplaced. Personally, I don't break my journey, so I would happily pay less and not have that, but I understand others who do want that, and are happy to pay for it. Travel on an advance and you loose everything bar the journey you booked, but you do pay less. You get what you pay for.
I thought people paid for flexibility on a walk-up ticket, not the seat reservation. So arguments about cost seem misplaced. Personally, I don't break my journey, so I would happily pay less and not have that, but I understand others who do want that, and are happy to pay for it. Travel on an advance and you loose everything bar the journey you booked, but you do pay less. You get what you pay for.
It’s to do with length of journey as well though. I could tolerate standing for an hour or so. I don’t want to go to Scotland or Cornwall from London without a guaranteed seat, frankly. Hence I’ll always reserve a seat (even at the expense of flexibility).
That’s one advantage with travelling on RENFE trains. Seat number printed on ticket BUT it would take a wholesale change in the fare structure and ticket types. It does help match demand to availability. Tickets such as Savers are the problem here, particularly the return portion which is valid for a month. Maybe you get over this by abolishing returns as we know them.
Dr_Intoxicated
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I have not used the XC 10 minute reservation system but have seen many posts complaining of the risk of being turfed out of ones seat halfway through a journey from a seat that was not initially reserved.
Is it not possible to get on a XC train find a nice (unreserved) seat and then reserve it using the system for the rest of your journey? If not maybe the system should be extended to permit this.
Is it not possible to get on a XC train find a nice (unreserved) seat and then reserve it using the system for the rest of your journey? If not maybe the system should be extended to permit this.
backontrack
Established Member
They should use LEDs. A green LED signifies an unreserved seat, but when the seat becomes reserved at an intermediate station the green LED turns off, and a red LED turns on.
I like being able to get a reservation - its a long way to Newcastle to Stand you know.
the system is perfect right now and charging wont help but a 10 min after departure rule certainly would - if you ahvent taken it up then you have lost it and the guard can control this and a colour system like backontrack has described is perfect - as long as the function is displayed that you must vacate if it turns red
the system is perfect right now and charging wont help but a 10 min after departure rule certainly would - if you ahvent taken it up then you have lost it and the guard can control this and a colour system like backontrack has described is perfect - as long as the function is displayed that you must vacate if it turns red
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I believe the 80x units use an even better system, which only uses green if the seat is unreserved for the rest of the joruney but also has an amber LED for when the seat is reserved later in the journey (but you have to look at the accompanying alphanumeric display to find out where).
Every time I have used a 800 so far, the reservations have either failed mid-journey or hadn’t been working at all. I’ve made about 10 journeys - the most recent being about 4 days ago.
backontrack
Established Member
That's a good idea.
backontrack
Established Member
Thanks. I certainly think that some sort of visual indicator is a wise idea.
Of course.
Wychwood93
Member
With regard to the 'turn red' idea - you are seated, the display is above you, you are, oddly, unable to see that. Do you actually settle into your journey, or get a tad annoyed and keep getting up and having a look? Why would you bother to do the latter? V.much the same as with XC and the less than sensible idea of having people reserve seats after the service has started - a good idea that is not a good idea. It would be easy to suggest that long-haul UK services head towards Eurostar, TGV, AVE etc. To actually morph it all together into something sensible would be hard - with the current UK system it would be harder than hard. We are somewhat accustomed to turn up and go - service provider does not matter.
backontrack
Established Member
I am also suggesting that the LEDs be situated in a place where you do not have to move from your seat.
Wychwood93
Member
I take the point you are making. You are comfy, settled etc. and then this bloody red light pops up - my inclination would be to wait it out and see if anyone actually pops up. Given assorted posts above it may well be a 'no show'. Always surprising how many people see the res. tags on GWR and move on. Have a look and sit is often much easier.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
XC state the seats "may be reserved during this journey. Which means that, er, they might get reserved later. Its fairly simple stuff to grasp. An amber light would make it clearer again, I agree.
The trouble with XC is there aren't that many seats which are genuinely unreserved. Or not that many seats generally, for that matter. So if you don't have a reservation you have no choice but to hope the TMR system doesn't allocate your seat to someone else.
As has been repeatedly explained, the advance ticket holders MUST be on that train whereas the flexible ticket holders can go get a coffee and catch the next train if they consider it too busy.
Few advance ticket holders arrive 2 minutes before departure because the consequences of missing the train are so expensive. So even if you went on first come first served, they'd still be in a seat before
Fabulous if you're lucky enough to be fully able, travelling alone, travelling without baggage, and getting on at the origin station.
If none of those apply, well...
Who would qualify for a priority card? People with babies? People with children? People with large bags?
"I'm fit and I've got sharp elbows, so abolish reservations" is rather self-centred, don't you think? If having a seat is so important to you, bloody well reserve one.
This priority card system is actually happening on several TOCs. LNR and WMR were the latest to introduce it last month.
It's basically a scheme where because they don't offer seat reservations, those who are disabled or have complex needs can apply for one. Once they have the card it's there to show onboard to access a priority seat if theyre full. Although it's more a matter of politeness as passengers can't be forced to vacate, but it's hoped they would.
I'm sorry if you don't agree with the scheme. But it's happening and that's the TOCs choice. I believe ScotRail may also be running such a scheme. It's mainly for people with disabilities which may not be obvious to others.
It makes total sense. As if someone physically needs a seat for health reasons, it's a totally different thing to wanting a seat reservation where they don't exist. Also it helps staff doing assisted travel, as if a service is full and standing people can be asked to vacate priority seats in favour of an assisted travel passenger. This also helps to avoid delay at the station caused by booked assist on a full service.
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
It's a good idea for commuter trains, but it's not quite a replacement for reservations.
Not least because vacating a priority seat is optional (as my pregnant wife proves) but occupying a reserved seat without permission is a criminal offence.
It's a shame you didn't answer my question, mind. Should anyone who can't elbow to the front of the scrum get a priority card?
Yeah I think the TOCs are briefing staff that it's still not mandatory for passengers to vacate a priority seat when asked .But it's likely they will if shown the card or a staff member asks. It can't do any obvious harm anyway, the card scheme.
Someone who is pregnant is also entitled to a priority seat and it's hoped people would be considerate.
Didn't know occupying someone's reserved seat was criminal. Sounds a bit extreme? Although realistically with BTP's resource nobody is ever likely to be prosecuted or removed from a train for this. Unless it esculates into proper disorder.
NorthernSpirit
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Should seat reservations be abolished? Yes on any service that runs with anything less than eight coaches, so GWR, GC, HT, TPE and XC which are usually formed of either three, four or five coaches.
I say this because on the Cardiff to Portsmouth corridor the service is currently ran with hybrid three car 158s, so you end up with hoards of people boarding only to find out that they’ll be standing as far as Bath Spa. GWR should do away with the reservations which would open up and allow flexibility with the seats.
Again with Crosscountry, whose fleet are a mixture of four and five car Voyagers (which in my opinion should all be reformed into fixed seven or eight car units) that shouldn’t even have reservations since they are too small for the job.
Transpennine Express, again the same. Seriously having reservations on something that resembles an Intercity Pacer shouldn’t have reservations as either people will sit in a reserved seat and then refuse to relinquish it upon the request of the person who originally reserved it or see the seat reserved and not sit in it but will stand by the doors blocking access to elsewhere on the train.
In my own opinion reservations should only be issued to those in groups of four such as a group of mates or families - as it’ll mean they’re guaranteed a table seat so that they‘re not having to stand in the aisle blocking it or having someones child running up and down the coach screaming and shouting whilst holding a bag of crisps and ruining everyone else’s journey in the process because they’re stuck with two airline seats.
Reservations for those in a suit or are students should not be available. Two reasons for this, one is that they‘ll reserve whatever services are available thus rendering a seat unavailable because they haven‘t turned up to use that service and two they’ll take over the next seat and treat the area as an office on wheels, which isn’t fair on the poor sod who could well be placed next to them on a reservation. I’d prefer to see TOCs charge somewhere between £5 to £20 for a reservation based on distance, this would discourage those who have reserved around four seats but are only likely to use one service out of the four booked. It would encourage more people buying walk up fares where they can return within a month.
I say this because on the Cardiff to Portsmouth corridor the service is currently ran with hybrid three car 158s, so you end up with hoards of people boarding only to find out that they’ll be standing as far as Bath Spa. GWR should do away with the reservations which would open up and allow flexibility with the seats.
Again with Crosscountry, whose fleet are a mixture of four and five car Voyagers (which in my opinion should all be reformed into fixed seven or eight car units) that shouldn’t even have reservations since they are too small for the job.
Transpennine Express, again the same. Seriously having reservations on something that resembles an Intercity Pacer shouldn’t have reservations as either people will sit in a reserved seat and then refuse to relinquish it upon the request of the person who originally reserved it or see the seat reserved and not sit in it but will stand by the doors blocking access to elsewhere on the train.
In my own opinion reservations should only be issued to those in groups of four such as a group of mates or families - as it’ll mean they’re guaranteed a table seat so that they‘re not having to stand in the aisle blocking it or having someones child running up and down the coach screaming and shouting whilst holding a bag of crisps and ruining everyone else’s journey in the process because they’re stuck with two airline seats.
Reservations for those in a suit or are students should not be available. Two reasons for this, one is that they‘ll reserve whatever services are available thus rendering a seat unavailable because they haven‘t turned up to use that service and two they’ll take over the next seat and treat the area as an office on wheels, which isn’t fair on the poor sod who could well be placed next to them on a reservation. I’d prefer to see TOCs charge somewhere between £5 to £20 for a reservation based on distance, this would discourage those who have reserved around four seats but are only likely to use one service out of the four booked. It would encourage more people buying walk up fares where they can return within a month.
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