Delay repay question re extended onward travel time

[Chris M]

Last night my partner and I travelled back home from Yorkshire to London. The first leg of the journey (19:52 Cononley to Leeds) arrived into Leeds 12 minutes late at 20:44 which meant that our connecting train, the 20:45 to King's Cross departed before we could reach it.

This meant that instead of arriving at King's Cross at 23:12 (scheduled) we didn't arrive until 00:44 (scheduled arrival 01:01). I can obviously claim delay repay from Northern for this 1.5 hour delay.

However, because we arrived after the last tube our journey home took 75 minutes rather than 35 minutes it should have done. Can I claim for this time as well, even though my ticket with the railway was only Cononley to King's Cross?

 

[Bletchleyite]

No. Delay Repay is paid based on the journey time between the stations on your ticket (or tickets in case of a split) only.

 

[island]

Delay Repay is only payable in respect of that part of your journey which is on National Rail.

 

[Chris M]

That's unfortunate, as arriving home at 2am is rather more inconvenient than 11:45pm - particularly as the guard of the Northern train had arranged for the Virgin train to be held (there were about 10 people wanting the connection) for the 2 minutes (maximum) that would have been. When enquiring with a station staff member, we heard the person on the other end of the radio say that "they changed their mind" - although whether "they" was Northern, Virgin or Network Rail or some combination I have no idea.

 

[bb21]

State this in your claim and you may be compensated additionally, but only really if you held return tickets rather than singles.

Additional delays for onward journey may not strictly speaking be liable for compensation, many TOCs would consider these on a case by case basis as I have done before, but only usually for journeys late at night and a direct result of the service delay, which is the case for you.

 

[trainophile]

Last night my partner and I travelled back home from Yorkshire to London. The first leg of the journey (19:52 Cononley to Leeds) arrived into Leeds 12 minutes late at 20:44 which meant that our connecting train, the 20:45 to King's Cross departed before we could reach it.

This meant that instead of arriving at King's Cross at 23:12 (scheduled) we didn't arrive until 00:44 (scheduled arrival 01:01). I can obviously claim delay repay from Northern for this 1.5 hour delay.

However, because we arrived after the last tube our journey home took 75 minutes rather than 35 minutes it should have done. Can I claim for this time as well, even though my ticket with the railway was only Cononley to King's Cross?

If you had missed the last tube, did you have to take a taxi home? If so, presumably you should be able to claim for the taxi fare, as the railway are not supposed to leave people stranded.

 

[alistairlees]

If you had missed the last tube, did you have to take a taxi home? If so, presumably you should be able to claim for the taxi fare, as the railway are not supposed to leave people stranded.

The OP had a ticket to London Kings Cross though, which was where he and his partner arrived, so they were not left 'stranded' anywhere by the National Rail network.

 

[trainophile]

The OP had a ticket to London Kings Cross though, which was where he and his partner arrived, so they were not left 'stranded' anywhere by the National Rail network.

Ah, I get it now. Still seems a bit dodgy that trains can get you to your destination station at silly o'clock and then you're on your own. Would be extremely worrying for a pensioner or a young person on their own.

 

[Chris M]

We had a ticket to King's Cross, with the intention of using our Oyster Cards on the tube and DLR home as this is usually significantly cheaper and always easier than NR tickets to zone 2. As we were so late in however we had to get 2 night buses with a nearly 20 minute wait between them (the second route is only half hourly). The buses are slightly cheaper than the tube so we're not out of pocket, but I do think the railway should be compensating me for all the inconvenience they caused us.

 

[trainophile]

It could be argued that your intended final leg by tube and DLR comprised part of your overall journey, and thus the railway should be obliged to make sure you got to the point at which you leave the network completely. I don't suppose they would see it like that though.

 

[221129]

It could be argued that your intended final leg by tube and DLR comprised part of your overall journey, and thus the railway should be obliged to make sure you got to the point at which you leave the network completely. I don't suppose they would see it like that though.

No it couldn't...

 

[Tetchytyke]

No it couldn't

Why not?

And would an advance to London U12 change your opinion?

 

[alistairlees]

It could be argued that your intended final leg by tube and DLR comprised part of your overall journey, and thus the railway should be obliged to make sure you got to the point at which you leave the network completely. I don't suppose they would see it like that though.

They did get to the point at which they left the 'network completely'. It's called London Kings Cross.

If that seems absurd to you, turn the journey round and imagine that the OP was going from somewhere in the London travel zones (using Oyster) to London KX, then on a National Rail ticket to York. Imagine that they, because of a delay on TfL somewhere, missed the last train from Kings Cross. Does TfL have an obligation to compensate them for hotel, taxi or whatever cost was involved in the journey to York as a result? No, they would not even think that, and TfL would not even contemplate it.

Basically, different transport networks (and therefore liabilities) have to end somewhere, and so you'll get these boundary issues.

 

[alistairlees]

We had a ticket to King's Cross, with the intention of using our Oyster Cards on the tube and DLR home as this is usually significantly cheaper and always easier than NR tickets to zone 2. As we were so late in however we had to get 2 night buses with a nearly 20 minute wait between them (the second route is only half hourly). The buses are slightly cheaper than the tube so we're not out of pocket, but I do think the railway should be compensating me for all the inconvenience they caused us.

You should get compensation for the 92-minute delay to your arrival at your destination. The National Rail network has no idea what you might want to do after that, nor any responsibility for it financially. If we entered the world of unlimited consequential loss, we'd all be mired in disputes forever.

I do think though that there is a duty of care, i.e. to ensure that you are not put in a situation of danger (for instance an unaccompanied child arriving very much later than anticipated). Each case would need to be judged on its merits.

 

[AlterEgo]

It could be argued that your intended final leg by tube and DLR comprised part of your overall journey, and thus the railway should be obliged to make sure you got to the point at which you leave the network completely. I don't suppose they would see it like that though.

Not where tickets weren’t held at the time of the delay. There’s no contract or compunction on Virgin to get him home. Only to King’s Cross.

 

[trainophile]

Well hopefully the delay repay will cover the additional costs incurred should a taxi have been necessary.

I do think though that there is a duty of care, i.e. to ensure that you are not put in a situation of danger (for instance an unaccompanied child arriving very much later than anticipated). Each case would need to be judged on its merits.

^ This was what I was really thinking about, a moral obligation if not a legal one.

 

[Chris M]

If that seems absurd to you, turn the journey round and imagine that the OP was going from somewhere in the London travel zones (using Oyster) to London KX, then on a National Rail ticket to York. Imagine that they, because of a delay on TfL somewhere, missed the last train from Kings Cross. Does TfL have an obligation to compensate them for hotel, taxi or whatever cost was involved in the journey to York as a result? No, they would not even think that, and TfL would not even contemplate it.

Nowhere near the end of the day, but a few years ago I missed a train from St Pancras to, I think, Nottingham due to delays on the Underground. East Midlands Trains were perfectly happy for me to use my advance ticket on the next available train. Had I missed the last train of the day, I expect I would have been allowed to travel the following day.

 

[AlterEgo]

Nowhere near the end of the day, but a few years ago I missed a train from St Pancras to, I think, Nottingham due to delays on the Underground. East Midlands Trains were perfectly happy for me to use my advance ticket on the next available train. Had I missed the last train of the day, I expect I would have been allowed to travel the following day.

This is a slightly (and technically) different scenario as you would already have held a ticket of some description for the Underground, which means you have a qualifying through journey.

The railway’s obligations are a little different if you do the journey in the reverse order where you don’t have a ticket for onward travel on the Tube.

It does seem a little perverse.

 

[sefton]

Not where tickets weren’t held at the time of the delay. There’s no contract or compunction on Virgin to get him home. Only to King’s Cross.

I have submitted (and had paid) many a Delay Repay claim where I was making an onward journey from where my season ticket ends at Kings Cross, and where the following section (which is either train from St Pancras or tube to Victoria and train from there) is on Oyster/Contactless.

The claim in respect of delay and cost has been calculated and paid on the basis of the whole journey.

Maybe I have been lucky

 

[AlterEgo]

I have submitted (and had paid) many a Delay Repay claim where I was making an onward journey from where my season ticket ends at Kings Cross, and where the following section (which is either train from St Pancras or tube to Victoria and train from there) is on Oyster/Contactless.

The claim in respect of delay and cost has been calculated and paid on the basis of the whole journey.

Maybe I have been lucky

But you held tickets. And you’re talking about Delay Repay rather than consequential loss.

I’m saying the OP can’t expect there to be an obligation on the part of VTEC to provide him alternative transport for a journey which he doesn’t have a ticket for.

 

[bb21]

I think further details from the OP now changes the picture for me.

I am now inclined to think that the additional delay (against a validated itinerary to the final destination on DLR) should be considered as part of the overall journey as the plan was not originally to catch a bus service, and Oyster PAYG is now included in the definition of "ticket", so should not be considered to be materially different to a Zone U12* ticket. This wouldn't increase the delay liability for much, just the bus fares, as the leg into King's Cross was already over 60 minutes late, unless a return ticket is held and you were eventually over the 2-hour line.

This is just based on my interpretation of the rules though, and is by no means definitive. I don't think I have seen anything with authority on such scenarios, so would not like to stake my life on it.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think further details from the OP now changes the picture for me.

I am now inclined to think that the additional delay (against a validated itinerary to the final destination on DLR) should be considered as part of the overall journey as the plan was not originally to catch a bus service, and Oyster PAYG is now included in the definition of "ticket", so should not be considered to be materially different to a Zone U12* ticket. This wouldn't increase the delay liability for much, just the bus fares, as the leg into King's Cross was already over 60 minutes late, unless a return ticket is held and you were eventually over the 2-hour line.

This is just based on my interpretation of the rules though, and is by no means definitive. I don't think I have seen anything with authority on such scenarios, so would not like to stake my life on it.

This is sensible, but Oyster PAYG only becomes a ticket once you touch it in. In the OP's case, they obtain a ticket for the second part of their journey well after the delay has become apparent.

It would therefore be the same scenario as someone having a ticket between London and Lancaster, getting delayed for 90 minutes in the process and missing the last connection, where their final destination was actually Barrow In Furness. There is no obligation, in the absence of a ticket, for the railway to provide onward travel, nor would a Delay Repay claim be strictly valid if the ticket was purchased at Lancaster - after the delay became a reality - in the hope of extending their rights.

 

[bb21]

I know, that was always my understanding, hence my hesitation. IMO the new CoT really hasn't helped in providing clarity with the new definition, although I'm sure the intention was good.

 

[AlterEgo]

I know, that was always my understanding, hence my hesitation. IMO the new CoT really hasn't helped in providing clarity with the new definition, although I'm sure the intention was good.

Clearly some clearing up would be good. If a customer uses PAYG then there is of course no way they can actually "purchase" the "ticket" prior to a delay occurring as outlined in the scenario in the OP.

I've always tended to use Zone 1/2/3 etc tickets just in case this ever happened to me.

 

[sefton]

But you held tickets. And you’re talking about Delay Repay rather than consequential loss.

I’m saying the OP can’t expect there to be an obligation on the part of VTEC to provide him alternative transport for a journey which he doesn’t have a ticket for.

The only ticket I had (the same as the OP) was the ticket to Kings Cross. At that point I then bought another 'ticket' to travel on from there (as the OP intended to do) by touching in on Oyster/contactless.

The only difference seems to be that I could actually complete my journey all the way by tube and rail, but the OP through no fault of their own was forced to rely on a bus.