Which is the best of the InterCity TOCs?

[backontrack]

A question that I'd been wondering about for a while was this: which of the UK's TOCs that runs InterCity trains is the one that forum members consider the best across the board (in terms of operational quality service, efficiency, capacity, rolling stock, all factors generally).

It was difficult to know where to draw the line - whereas with some operators it was quite clear which ones were InterCity, with others it was less clear-cut. There seem to be two tiers: the out-and-out InterCity operators (of which VTEC and VT would be prime examples), which operate across the country, and more local operators like TransPennine Express and London Northwestern - which connect together major cities but at slower speeds and/or with more stops. I have decided to focus primarily on the higher tier. EMT and Greater Anglia both run InterCity trains alongside regional and local stopping services.

I have also been hampered in this endeavour by the limit of a maximum of ten poll options. Each member gets three votes, though.

I do think that, if I were to run this poll again in two years after stock cascades were complete, then ScotRail and TransPennine Express could be included as options (owing to the delivery of HSTs and bi-modes respectively).

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

Surprised to see VT West Coast in the lead (at time of writing). I can't stand their tacky branding and crampt rolling-stock that, despite being more modern than most, feels decidely worn and dated. Still, it's all subjective at the end of the day.

 

[Schweir]

GWR

 

[yorksrob]

EMT for me.

The most comfortable trains (HST)

Still some reasonably priced 1st class fares.

Decent on train food at a reasonable price.

 

[backontrack]

No votes for Hull Trains yet, perhaps surprisingly.

 

[53703]

My opinion..

CrossCountry - Trains far too small which doesn't make for a good travelling experience
East Midlands Trains - Good trains but journey times from Sheffield to London are too long
Greater Anglia - Not been on much of theirs but seems to me that they're crying out for investment, are 90s good enough for that line?
Great Western Railway - Love the image/livery and the new trains coming in make them the best TOC for me
Hull Trains - Hardly run any services these days due to having them rancid 180s, got to be near the bottom of the pile for me
Virgin Trains East Coast - Trains are ok but need investment, infrastructure lets them down too
Virgin Trains (West Coast) - Not keen on the trains, fell like you're in a coffin with some of the seats

 

[cactustwirly]

EMT for me.

The most comfortable trains (HST)

Still some reasonably priced 1st class fares.

Decent on train food at a reasonable price.

I disagree 100% with you on that one.
EMT are one of the worst IC operators IMO, with the lacklustre catering (trolley instead of buffet), badly refurbished HSTs & their 222s are in a really bad condition internally.

The lack of a decent coffee on EMT does annoy me (since every other operator bar XC offer it) so my custom goes to Pret at St Pancras instead.

The first class fares are way too expensive for me, since they don't offer 1st advances beyond London.

Back to the original question, it is a tricky one, 12 months ago I would have said GWR, however they have imploded since then.
In terms of std catering, I think GA do the best.

 

[fgwrich]

If you'd have asked me 2 years ago, I'd have said First Great Western. However under the 'Great Western Railway' rebrand they seem to be losing the plot day by day. The fleet is looking uncared for and dirty, buffet options seem to be steadily decreasing with what's starting to feel like a take it or leave it attitude, there seems to be more delays happening every day along the route or cancellations altogether, the staffing issue seems to be hitting them hard, organisation seems to be going rather out of the window (Rail Replacement last weekend was a mess with no clear direction being given or not enough coaches booked) (I've also now been made aware of why the "Train Late from the depot " excuse has regualry been coming out of Reading lately), short of reliable rolling stock and the significant downgrade in service offered by the 800s. Of which had another this morning, spoke to the trolley attendant and they're still getting people asking for the onboard shop or buffet. I can also count on both hands the number of times I've seen 10 x 800 this week with 5 in use and those 5 are full and standing. Yes the Thames Valley mainline is finally starting to see upgrades with the 387s arriving but those on the branches now seem to be getting the brunt of the now very tired 165s with mostly 2 cars turning up instead of 3. Whatever heart and sole that made FGW into a repeat award winning TOC those years ago seems to be disappearing fast.

This post is meant with no disrespect to most of the hardworking staff on GWR of which most are still very pleasant. It's the management though who need to wake up and take the rose tinted glasses off from the Ivory towers of Swindon. I've also now given up reporting how bad some of those Turbo's have become because nothing actually get's down about them. Take it from me, I use the TOC every day!

 

[cactustwirly]

If you'd have asked me 2 years ago, I'd have said First Great Western. However under the 'Great Western Railway' rebrand they seem to be losing the plot day by day. The fleet is looking uncared for and dirty, buffet options seem to be steadily decreasing with what's starting to feel like a take it or leave it attitude, there seems to be more delays happening every day along the route or cancellations altogether, the staffing issue seems to be hitting them hard, organisation seems to be going rather out of the window (Rail Replacement last weekend was a mess with no clear direction being given or not enough coaches booked) (I've also now been made aware of why the "Train Late from the depot " excuse has regualry been coming out of Reading lately), short of reliable rolling stock and the significant downgrade in service offered by the 800s. Of which had another this morning, spoke to the trolley attendant and they're still getting people asking for the onboard shop or buffet. I can also count on both hands the number of times I've seen 10 x 800 this week with 5 in use and those 5 are full and standing. Yes the Thames Valley mainline is finally starting to see upgrades with the 387s arriving but those on the branches now seem to be getting the brunt of the now very tired 165s with mostly 2 cars turning up instead of 3. Whatever heart and sole that made FGW into a repeat award winning TOC those years ago seems to be disappearing fast.

This post is meant with no disrespect to most of the hardworking staff on GWR of which most are still very pleasant. It's the management though who need to wake up and take the rose tinted glasses off from the Ivory towers of Swindon. I've also now given up reporting how bad some of those Turbo's have become because nothing actually get's down about them. Take it from me, I use the TOC every day!

I agree, GWR were still quite good 12 months ago, but now it's just imploded!
I know the turbos are worse than they were, but they aren't too bad, especially compared to 156s of a certain midland TOC.

 

[Starmill]

the lacklustre catering (trolley instead of buffet)

I suspect that yorksrob was referring to the First Class meals, which are in my experience very nice and quite a good price.

 

[Starmill]

No votes for Hull Trains yet, perhaps surprisingly.

I dunno. Their trains have very old, worn out and tired interiors and they have become very, very unreliable recently. This has probably had a significant effect on their satisfaction levels.

 

[trebor79]

GA wind hands down. The trains might be old but the Mk3 is still the smoothest quietest carriage on the network, and GA haven't crammed them full with silly high backed seats.
Proper buffet on board with some decent options. A shame the restaurant disappeared but thay was a light time ago now.
I'm intrigued by how the FLIRTs turn out, they look like they could be decent trains.

 

[fgwrich]

I agree, GWR were still quite good 12 months ago, but now it's just imploded!
I know the turbos are worse than they were, but they aren't too bad, especially compared to 156s of a certain midland TOC.

Actually come to think of it, I noticed something interesting last night. So, my Turbo to Reading was in one of the usual dire states that they’ve become, with the moquette panel on the wall falling down, one reading light permanently switched on while the other had the bulb hanging out, usual dirt ingrained carpets and frayed seats. I then caught a HST to Parkway and a 166 into Temple Meads. And yet, the 166 was in a far greater condition. It looked reasonably well cared for with new carpets, working air con and the robo-bog that worked (usual lack of water though!). So what is it that Bristol can do with their Turbos that Reading seems to be drastically failing at theirs?

E.g here is an example of one of the ones I’m having to commute on at the moment. With the usual wires hanging loose from the seat base as well. Oh and this one comes complete with a odour de vomit. So bad I did move rather quickly after this - are Reading short of cleaners or do they not care anymore?

 

[cactustwirly]

Actually come to think of it, I noticed something interesting last night. So, my Turbo to Reading was in one of the usual dire states that they’ve become, with the moquette panel on the wall falling down, one reading light permanently switched on while the other had the bulb hanging out, usual dirt ingrained carpets and frayed seats. I then caught a HST to Parkway and a 166 into Temple Meads. And yet, the 166 was in a far greater condition. It looked reasonably well cared for with new carpets, working air con and the robo-bog that worked (usual lack of water though!). So what is it that Bristol can do with their Turbos that Reading seems to be drastically failing at theirs?

E.g here is an example of one of the ones I’m having to commute on at the moment. With the usual wires hanging loose from the seat base as well. Oh and this one comes complete with a odour de vomit. So bad I did move rather quickly after this - are Reading short of cleaners or do they not care anymore?

I rode a Bristol based 166 last month & actually thought is was worse than the Reading turbos!

Here's a 156 I had a few months back so you can compare.


The 156 also had absolutely shot suspension, which I haven't experienced on a Reading turbo (they're always mechanically sound IME)

 

[Doctor Fegg]

If you'd have asked me 2 years ago, I'd have said First Great Western. However under the 'Great Western Railway' rebrand they seem to be losing the plot day by day.

Sadly I'd agree. Since 2015, GWR has introduced swingeing fare increases (through new off-peak restrictions); a massive cutback in provision for bikes (down from 6 spaces per 180/HST to 2 per IET); and since the start of this year, cancellations day in, day out, on my local line. For the first time, I'm hoping someone else gets the franchise next time round (...unless "someone else" is Arriva ).

 

[BeHereNow]

Deleted

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surprised to see VT West Coast in the lead (at time of writing). I can't stand their tacky branding and crampt rolling-stock that, despite being more modern than most, feels decidely worn and dated. Still, it's all subjective at the end of the day.

While they do misbehave at times (not accepting perfectly valid tickets being the classic) I find them generally competent, the staff pleasant, the Off Peak walk up fares reasonable (noting that they're lower than most other TOCs because they were reduced on privatisation when the SuperSavers were abolished unlike some other TOCs) etc. And I don't *mind* Pendolinos and Voyagers, they're certainly nicer than Mk4s or Class 800s.

And if I splash the dosh on weekday First Class I think it's the best of the lot, the Coach K debacle aside.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Funny that TPE aren't even considered to be on the list.

TPE aren't really an InterCity franchise, they are more of a glorified inter-regional/regional express.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

While they do misbehave at times (not accepting perfectly valid tickets being the classic) I find them generally competent, the staff pleasant, the Off Peak walk up fares reasonable (noting that they're lower than most other TOCs because they were reduced on privatisation when the SuperSavers were abolished unlike some other TOCs) etc. And I don't *mind* Pendolinos and Voyagers, they're certainly nicer than Mk4s or Class 800s.

And if I splash the dosh on weekday First Class I think it's the best of the lot, the Coach K debacle aside.

The Off-Peak fares are about as high as I would want to be paying for travel at all. The only time I've ever travelled with Anytime tickets on their trains has been when it's been someone else who's paid for the tickets!

Yet the Off-Peak fares are also very restrictive in terms of time, leading to 'Peak' time trains that leave Euston etc. far below the seated capacity. Perhaps they need to revamp the fares system so that Super Off-Peaks are available to more than just Birmingham etc., or else introduce "flexible" Advances which can be more easily changed from one train to another, provided there's sufficient capacity.

Expanding on that idea, perhaps rather than having "tiers" of Advance which the passenger is unaware of, maybe there should be Advance fares for every 10% of seated capacity, that is to say - if a train has seat reservations of no more than 10% of the seated capacity the Advance is very cheap, going up to no more Advances available if there are reservations beyond about 70-80% of seated capacity. Then you can take any train which is reserved up to or less than your level of advance - so, if for example you have a "50%" Advance you can take any train which is reserved up to no more than 50% of the seated capacity.

All I can say is - the current fares system inhibits a lot of leisure travelling/tourism, to the detriment of the economy. Of course the DfT is happy as they pay a very low effective subsidy (about 2.6p per mile), but it means empty Off-Peak trains.

 

[Mathew S]

TPE aren't really an InterCity franchise, they are more of a glorified inter-regional/regional express.

Manchester - Scotland, Liverpool - York, feels pretty inter-city to me

 

[backontrack]

Funny that TPE aren't even considered to be on the list.

They were, but you can only have ten poll options and they are not as overtly 'InterCity' as some of the other candidates on the list because the same trains are also used heavily for peak-time shorter-distance commuter journeys.

 

[Kneedown]

EMT hands down.
They put Filet Mignon and Chateau Lafite on our dining table.
They let me drive big trains and small.
They let me instruct on big trains and small.
They have the very best Customer Host on the network (Mrs Kneedown!)
What downsides there are, are beyond EMT's powers to address at this time. Maybe next franchise!

 

[Mikey C]

A hard choice. I don't like the Pendolinos, the tiny windows and cramped interiors

BUT I do appreciate their speed and smoothness, and VT do have very decent frequency and usually cheap advance fares (including 1st class). The trains are usually in pretty good nick too.

 

[yorksrob]

I suspect that yorksrob was referring to the First Class meals, which are in my experience very nice and quite a good price.

Yes, this is spot on - albeit sadly not available on weekends.

 

[al78]

While they do misbehave at times (not accepting perfectly valid tickets being the classic) I find them generally competent, the staff pleasant, the Off Peak walk up fares reasonable (noting that they're lower than most other TOCs because they were reduced on privatisation when the SuperSavers were abolished unlike some other TOCs) etc. And I don't *mind* Pendolinos and Voyagers, they're certainly nicer than Mk4s or Class 800s.

And if I splash the dosh on weekday First Class I think it's the best of the lot, the Coach K debacle aside.

I find Virgin WC pleasant enough to travel with. The seating is comfortable, there is a small cafe for a drink and a snack, the staff are polite and helpful, and when things go wrong in real time they do their best to assist passengers. I wasn't very impressed with Virgin EC last time I used it, but that may be because just over 10 years ago I travelled up the ECML and there was a restaraunt car where I could get a nice hot meal. Now it is a case of buying a pre-heated cheese and mushroom pastie which feels and tastes like it has been made out of materials that have been mined and refined, rather than grown or raised.

 

[yorksrob]

I disagree 100% with you on that one.
EMT are one of the worst IC operators IMO, with the lacklustre catering (trolley instead of buffet), badly refurbished HSTs & their 222s are in a really bad condition internally.

The lack of a decent coffee on EMT does annoy me (since every other operator bar XC offer it) so my custom goes to Pret at St Pancras instead.

The first class fares are way too expensive for me, since they don't offer 1st advances beyond London.

Back to the original question, it is a tricky one, 12 months ago I would have said GWR, however they have imploded since then.
In terms of std catering, I think GA do the best.

On the contrary, I think their HST's had the best refurbishment of the lot. The original 1st class seating is like an armchair and worth paying a few extra quid for.

Even the seating in steerage is decent enough for me.

 

[Timrud]

EMT are top for me

 

[class387]

Definitely Eurostar. While many of the others do a good job, no other TOC has been as revolutionary as E*. They have completely changed the ways we can travel to Europe and made rail competitive against airlines. Their trains are comfortable too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester - Scotland, Liverpool - York, feels pretty inter-city to me

So are the Northern Class 319 stoppers from Liverpool to Manchester. They are not, however, InterCity - which gives rise to a particular character to the service.

 

[transmanche]

So are the Northern Class 319 stoppers from Liverpool to Manchester.

Or the Northern Class 142s between Newcastle and Sunderland!