NR High speed proposal

[j0hn0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8221540.stm

forgive me if i am wrong, but didn't the government setup HS2 to provide this report?
Exactly what is the point of providing a High Speed Rail report when effectively what it is saying is "Build a new WCML" even though they've just spent billions "improving" it?

To ignore the trans-pennine route, M1 corridor to Leeds and the north east is surely indicative of the problems we face with NR. Complete head in the sand, unbelieveable short-sightedness

 

[K_H]

I must say that was my first thought too: Network Rail is government-run as is High Speed Two. Why are two government-funded agencies examining these options independently of each other?

 

[generalvegitable]

they have been idiots, the M1 corridor to leeds with a branch to brum brum would have been a smarter alternative

 

[mrcheek]

So finally, Network Rail comes up with an ambitious, forward-thinking and concrete proposal, to invest huge sums in the high speed rail link that Britain has so desperately needed for years.

And already everybodys ****ing moaning.

 

[generalvegitable]

the idea is good but the route that it takes is stupid

 

[Old Timer]

For obvious reasons, the route passes through, or close to, the largest commercial and business centres in the UK.

The East Coast does not have such centres, other than arguably Leeds. and possibly Newcastle, but they cannot compete with the Cities along the West Coast.

 

[j0hn0]

For obvious reasons, the route passes through, or close to, the largest commercial and business centres in the UK.

The East Coast does not have such centres, other than arguably Leeds. and possibly Newcastle, but they cannot compete with the Cities along the West Coast.

So not serving Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle is a good thing then?

Agreed there's nowt up the east coast until Leeds, but the most economically beneficial line to all concerned is the central one. Split it at Rugby and then join them back up again across the pennines between Leeds and Manchester.

 

[mrcheek]

the idea is good but the route that it takes is stupid

Why is it stupid???
The 4 most important cities are London, Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow. This route serves all four.

Would you prefer it to serve more cities? How about if it stops at every little town on the way as well. Its supposed to be a high speed route. The idea is to AVOID serving every little place!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So not serving Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leeds and Newcastle is a good thing then?

Agreed there's nowt up the east coast until Leeds, but the most economically beneficial line to all concerned is the central one. Split it at Rugby and then join them back up again across the pennines between Leeds and Manchester.

If it served all these places, then it wouldnt really be a high speed line would it?

Leeds, Sheffield, Leicester and Nottingham are small fry compared to London, Birmingham and Manchester. And Newcastle is nowhere near as important as its inhabitants seem to think. They dont even have a top division football team....

 

[Metroland]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8221540.stm

forgive me if i am wrong, but didn't the government setup HS2 to provide this report?
Exactly what is the point of providing a High Speed Rail report when effectively what it is saying is "Build a new WCML" even though they've just spent billions "improving" it?

To ignore the trans-pennine route, M1 corridor to Leeds and the north east is surely indicative of the problems we face with NR. Complete head in the sand, unbelieveable short-sightedness

Nope this is NR's preferred option, the government's High Speed 2 company reports in December. The line services population centres that generate the maximum benefits. Although I always thought that a route following the M1, A1 would be the best option (serving Mk, Nottingham and Leicester, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh) with a branch coming off at Rugby and following the M6 to Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool. Building a high speed line through the lake district and mountains of southern Scotland seems a little costly compared to the other side of the country. I would assume though they are looking at freeing up the WCML for freight.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/content/detail.asp?ReleaseID=4625&NewsAreaID=2&zip=True

 

[j0hn0]

One things that interests me is the loading gauge issue.

If trains are to go into existing stations, whats the point in building all high speed lines to berne gauge?

Also NR are proposing new "terminal" stations in city centres "near" to existing stations.

I wouldve thought that through stations would provide a better connection. Really do not understand the logic in NR's proposal. 1500 pages of rubbish it seems.

 

[me123]

Perhaps you could make another high speed line up the East Coast, though? To Leeds and Newcastle? And link them with a Leeds-Birmingham section? OK, it's mirroring what we have just now, but of course the high speed links aren't going to serve the local stations (I don't see HS2 serving, for example, Lichfield Trent Valley.

I think the best option would be London-Birmingham-Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh, with a route splitting off to Liverpool and another to Leeds and Newcastle both after a call at Birmingham. The existing WCML arrangements should, IMO, be retained to improve local travel opportunities. Improve Transpennine up to 125mph running with electrification as well. Alternativelty, splitting South of Birmingham for Leeds would serve Leicester and Derby.

 

[j0hn0]

Why is it stupid???
The 4 most important cities are London, Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow. This route serves all four.

Would you prefer it to serve more cities? How about if it stops at every little town on the way as well. Its supposed to be a high speed route. The idea is to AVOID serving every little place!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If it served all these places, then it wouldnt really be a high speed line would it?

Leeds, Sheffield, Leicester and Nottingham are small fry compared to London, Birmingham and Manchester. And Newcastle is nowhere near as important as its inhabitants seem to think. They dont even have a top division football team....

Do virgin trains stop at every city on the way? :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nope this is NR's preferred option, the government's High Speed 2 company reports in December. The line services population centres that generate the maximum benefits. Although I always thought up the M1, A1 would be the best option (serving Mk, Nottingham and Leicester, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh) with a branch coming off at Rugby and following the M6 to Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool. Building a high speed line through the lake district and mountains of southern Scotland seems a little costly compared to the other side of the country. I would assume though they are looking at freeing up the WCML for freight.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/content/detail.asp?ReleaseID=4625&NewsAreaID=2&zip=True

hasn't stopped the germans, italians, japanese or spanish. look at my avatar picture for an example of how to do it. Why are the british so defeatist in build in hilly areas.

The more time we spend debating "cost" and "benefits" will be time lost in actually having the thing running.

Build it and they will come

 

[Metroland]

Ah but do they have armies of Nimbys that wouldn't want a railway going through the Dales and Lakes? The reason the Vesta's wind turbine factor closed was the Nimby factor, even though we're now a net importer of coal, gas and oil and nuclear is silly costs and all the lights are due to go out in the next 10 years. Never underestimate 'things spoiling views' getting in the way of basic logic and ability to sustain industrial society.

 

[j0hn0]

Ah but do they have armies of Nimbys that wouldn't want a railway going through the Dales and Lakes? The reason the Vesta's wind turbine factor closed was the Nimby factor, even though we're now a net importer of coal, gas and oil and nuclear is silly costs and all the lights are due to go out in the next 10 years. Never underestimate 'things spoiling views' getting in the way of basic logic and ability to sustain industrial society.

A salient point indeed.

That does however happen everywhere (mobile phone masts etc) even in Holland. eg, the Groene Haart tunnel was constructed so as not to spoilt the views of the green heart of holland!

A) holland is an estuary
B) holland is flat and was constructed
C) where are the hills to view this wonderful green heart?

 

[Bayum]

Leeds has lost out again...

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Leeds-Dday-for-200mph-rail.5586092.jp

 

[EWS 58038]

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/imagelibrary/detail.asp?MediaDetailsID=2629 Perfect, If the choice was mine I would sign the contracts to build it today. The diverting Spur to LHR is a perfect solution to improve journey times to central London whilst still offering good links to and from the airport.

Britain has proven it "can" build High Speed Rail. HS1 was build "On time" and "on budget". And look how Southeastern is managing the domestic service. It's wonderfull the company just extanded it's preview service couse it's a great succes. Somethings I can only be ashamed of in the Netherlands where a normal loco hauled train runs a preview service only once hourly at a 70% higher price then the InterCity.

The UK did a good job on HS1 and the succes of today, even now it's not officially in full service it can only be a good sign for a future of British high speed travel.

Imagine you live near London and a special runs on the highland mainline... With HS2 you can make a great picture of that train... and return to your girlfriend for diner, both happy.

 

[mrcheek]

Leeds has lost out again...

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Leeds-Dday-for-200mph-rail.5586092.jp

If only they hadnt sacked David O'Leary.....

 

[EWS 58038]

the idea is good but the route that it takes is stupid

Sure in your case... You live far a way from that line. But the benefits for the westcoast are larger, and thus offer better value for money. 41,3 Bjn is a hell of a lot of money. And who knows... HS3, HS4?????
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

C) where are the hills to view this wonderful green heart?

You don't need Hills or mountains to love nature at its best

 

[generalvegitable]

Sure in your case... You live far a way from that line. But the benefits for the westcoast are larger, and thus offer better value for money. 41,3 Bjn is a hell of a lot of money. And who knows... HS3, HS4?????

I honestly don't care if I am not served by a high speed line, I would rather see the line going direct to scotland rather than detouring round birmingham and liverpool/manchester, the suggestion by Metroland I think is the best option, with one main route out of london, splitting at rugby then combining again past the mountainous region up north to form one route into scotland, possibly with a tunnel from say Stranraer to Northern Ireland to connect them with the brittish mainland and indeed europe

 

[Kneedown]

Whilst the idea of a highspeed line is nice, the money would be far far better spent bringing the present infrastructure up to scratch. Track improvements, mass electrification and modern rolling stock for example.
Brum, Manc, Glazgee, and Leeds and Newcastle for that matter already have a pretty decent, high(ish) speed service to London. We in the East Mids don't. All we have is a lower speed, more unreliable and polluting diesel service everywhere, not just London.
We all pay our taxes and so are all entitled to a modern transport infrastructure.

 

[j0hn0]

Sure in your case... You live far a way from that line. But the benefits for the westcoast are larger, and thus offer better value for money. 41,3 Bjn is a hell of a lot of money. And who knows... HS3, HS4?????
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You don't need Hills or mountains to love nature at its best

haha, classic dutch response there, no offence. Lived there for a bit myself.

Doesn't the saying go "god created the earth but the dutch created the Netherlands" ?

In my opinion, nature at its best IS hills and mountains and rivers that flow. Keukenhof for example is incredibly beautiful but it is all engineered to look like that. It is nature sure, but not at its best.

please don't interpret as a slant on Holland, I really like the country and its people
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Whilst the idea of a highspeed line is nice, the money would be far far better spent bringing the present infrastructure up to scratch. Track improvements, mass electrification and modern rolling stock for example.
Brum, Manc, Glazgee, and Leeds and Newcastle for that matter already have a pretty decent, high(ish) speed service to London. We in the East Mids don't. All we have is a lower speed, more unreliable and polluting diesel service everywhere, not just London.
We all pay our taxes and so are all entitled to a modern transport infrastructure.

Well the MML is getting electrified ASWELL as building high speed lines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
note that this proposal deliberately does not include the link to heathrow that was so heavily mooted.

Also no mention of connections in London and where the terminus will be

 

[EWS 58038]

I think it's just a matter of time before Leeds e.g. get their so desired train. When HS2 is build, the relative costs for spur connections are low. I think it would even be possible to build a diverting spur to Bristol allowing a much faster cross country service to be introduced aswell. You won't have to do Edinburg <> Exeter on a "all High speed" route. Even if the train can use as little as 60 km of HS2 it would improve journey times by atleast 20 minutes, perhaps even more. If the train would go via Glasgow, then join HS2, run it till Birmingham (where a new parkway station could be build), continues via HS3 to Bristol. then it would cut times by atleast one hour.

 

[route:oxford]

All good news.

And good timing too... With the commerical property market at a relative low, time to ring-fence property assets near to existing railway stations.

Shame that Edinburgh Council built their new offices in the Waverley carpark - it would have been a good location for a high speed terminus.

Has work started on the "Waverley route" yet? Could it be suitable for the 200mph service from the Borders to Edinburgh? Local trains fitting inbetween the HS1S services... I take it Transport-Scotland will be funding the routes between Edinburgh/Glasgow and Carlisle.

 

[Kneedown]

Well the MML is getting electrified ASWELL

Is it?
Could you possibly point me in the direction of where it says so?

 

[K_H]

And good timing too... With the commerical property market at a relative low, time to ring-fence property assets near to existing railway stations.

Unfortunately the route options will be discussed for the next five years or so, then a select committee will be formed before a bill is drafted and drafted again ad nauseam. Who knows what property prices will be like by the time the route is finalised?

 

[pemma]

The chosen route is the best for getting people from the largest towns and cities to London. However, what about travelling between other cities e.g. Birmingham to Scotland, Manchester to Birmingham, Liverpool to Leeds etc?

 

[LondonLarry]

The chosen route is the best for getting people from the largest towns and cities to London. However, what about travelling between other cities e.g. Birmingham to Scotland, Manchester to Birmingham, Liverpool to Leeds etc?

EWS 58038 posted a link to a NR document about HS2 earlier....

'A typical timetable' suggests:
- 4tph London - Birmingham
- 4tph London - Manchester
- 2tph London - Liverpool
- 2tph London - Glasgow
- 2tph London - Edingburgh
- 2tph Birmingham - Glasgow (via Manchester)
- 2tph Birmingham - Edinburgh (via Manchester)

Whether anything like this actually happens is a different story!

 

[j0hn0]

Is it?
Could you possibly point me in the direction of where it says so?

c'mon, you know how to search google.

It was included in the governments recent announcements was it not?

 

[Kneedown]

It was included in the governments recent announcements was it not?

Errrrrrm.......No it wasn't actually!

Great Western mainline, and Manchester - Liverpool only announced.

 

[krus_aragon]

On page 11 of the synopsis document (see http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/5892.aspx) NR respond to the question of "why not connect Leeds and the North East?" with:

Two main reasons:
1. Connecting Leeds through Manchester has a large incremental cost and does not provide a significant journey time benefit over the London-Leeds direct service on the East Coast Main Line
2. Leeds is the top target market for what could potentially be a London to the North East high-speed line. If this was added to the proposal, the case for the second line would be substantially weakened
​

You can argue both sides of that one, and I'm sure you lot will.