Network Rail looking at how it could bring in 24 hour train service

[gavin]

Just heard on the radio the head of Network rail is looking at how the company could introduce a 24 hour train service after the success on the Tube and London Overground

Had a quick look on BBC News and Sky News but no stories for it

 

[NSEFAN]

Presumably this is for Friday and Saturday nights only? There will always need to be some scheduled time for maintenance.

 

[LLivery]

It's in the Standard: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...ocial&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1525156472

Trains could soon be running around the clock across Britain amid demands for modernised rail services, the chief executive of Network Rail has said.

Mark Carne, who will step down in the summer as head of the company responsible for rail infrastructure, said people wanted rail services to reflect their lifestyles.

Five lines on the London Underground have run a 24-hour service since 2016, with services also running around the clock on the London Overground line between Highbury and Islington and New Cross Gate.

Mr Carne told the Times the public sector company was looking at its systems for inspecting and repairing the railway to prepare for round-the-clock services

He said trains could be operating 24/7 across the UK in the “not-too-distant future”.

Stressing the importance of Network Rail staying ahead of demand, he told the paper: "If you have a 24-hour Tube, it is not going to be long before people want 24-hour availability of rail systems.

"I am anticipating that my customers - the train operating companies - will come to me in the not-too-distant future and tell me they want to run 24-hour trains.

"And I have got to be prepared for that and that's why we're thinking today about what that would look like."

Certainly be popular in South London, especially as overnight Thameslink basically ignores it except for East Croydon & Purley.

 

[theironroad]

When the article says 'across the UK', there may be some limited demand in major cities and conurbations for later night services on Fri/sat, but I somehow doubt there is demand on the most lines.

 

[camflyer]

I can't see there being sufficient demand on all services but for inter-city and major commuting routes then this would be fantastic. No more running for the last train of the night even if it was only on a Friday and Saturday to start with.

 

[grumblingalong]

Fantastic for those wanting to use it. Hell on earth for those of us that would have to somehow get the 0400 crowd home safely.

Certainly hope this doesn't come in where slam door stock is still in use. Otherwise I'm ok with it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fantastic for those wanting to use it. Hell on earth for those of us that would have to somehow get the 0400 crowd home safely.

Certainly hope this doesn't come in where slam door stock is still in use. Otherwise I'm ok with it!

There are 24 hour trains in some places (Thames Valley, Thameslink and not quite but nearly on the south WCML to name three, and TPE have some 24 hour bits) and it doesn't cause that much trouble. On the weekday 0134 from Euston normally 90% of the passengers are asleep.

It's easier to do on 4 track mainlines as you can have 2 being maintained, this is how the evening/overnight south WCML timetable works.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not exactly a new idea is it ? - the (in) famous term "Digital Railway was mentioned again in this context .....(yawn....)

 

[Robertj21a]

Long overdue. Welcome to a new century, at last.

 

[Spartacus]

I suspect it'll be something akin to the late night TPE airport service with an hour or so between most trains, mostly on routes that are duplicated with passenger services diverted around engineering between start and finish points in a similar manner to TPEs now, with virtually all the route duplicated to one extent or another.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect it'll be something akin to the late night TPE airport service with an hour or so between most trains, mostly on routes that are duplicated with passenger services diverted around engineering between start and finish points in a similar manner to TPEs now, with virtually all the route duplicated to one extent or another.

If you consider a network basically made up of just the big cities with a heavily padded timetable you have quite a lot of flexibility to route round engineering work. Consider as an example the late evening VTWC Birmingham services which are given an hour to get to Milton Keynes Central (typically running at about 70mph; at one point they were diesel loco-hauled for staff training purposes) and timed to run via Northampton even if they actually don't. With a sparse service there's no great issue blocking a platform at a large station for half an hour at that kind of time.

And then you've got LO-a-likes like Merseyrail or even Metrolink - those could easily justify an hourly overnight weekend service or better. In my experience Liverpool is actually much more of a 24 hour city than London is - it just all goes home in a taxi or on the first train.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Several hundred million pounds "dissapeared" into the swamp of NR funding for an intiative called the "7 Day Railway" around 2001.

Operators pronounced their key desires , lots of work done on revenue flows etc to assist the case , guarantees done on all sorts or route access strategies - like not closing the WC and EC together , always at least one route London - Dartford etc at weekends.

All sorts of nice yellow toys bought for the engineers - trestle wagons for switches and crossings etc. Some "soft" issues like single line working promised.

I have not read the Times today , but am told the front page highlights the largest ever number of rall replacement buses in use. This may have been an attempt to deflect some of these issues.

Anyway - 24/7 working on busy routes and key areas like Brighton - Bedford seems to pay off - not surprising with 2 Airports , a Capital City and much population - I am led to believe that the (doubled) train service performs well in terms of loading , if not perhaps in actual cash paid......

 

[cuccir]

Services between 23:30-05:30 - which is where the gap is on most of the network - could work. As Bletchleyite suggests, the best bet would be limited stop, long to medium distance services that have significant padding. As well as helping fit around engineering, this would put off people using them after nights out as most people don't tend to travel more than 30-45 minutes for these except on special occaisions; certainly, the cost involved would put off people just looking to drink on the weekend and this would reduce a lot of trouble.

Alongside these, a few more services on some of the 'metro-style' local networks where sufficient security can be provided and regular stops mean that people can easily get out if they feel in danger, and/or police can easily get on.

 

[diffident]

I think it's a great idea, and frankly well overdue.

I understand about the need to do essential maintenance on the infrastructure etc, however surely this can be countered in the same way as the railway does today??

I quite often have found myself working late in Birmingham City Centre, going past the last train and bus times for getting home. Pain in the backside.

A 24 hour service on the Cross City line, even if it was only hourly, would be fantastic. Even if there was engineering works preventing the rail service from running, there would (I assume) be a Rail Replacement laid on, so either way, in the small hours of the morning, I would be getting home without the need for a hefty taxi fee.

I'm all for it.

 

[DarloRich]

I have no problem with the idea and think it is overdue. However, it is already very hard to get access to maintain the network. To facilitate 24 hour passenger running is going to need a change in mindset from the TOC. They will have to give up more daylight access on key routes and that means running less trains. Will they do that?

I understand about the need to do essential maintenance on the infrastructure etc, however surely this can be countered in the same way as the railway does today??

when do you think the railway is maintained? How do you think this can be changed?

 

[diffident]

when do you think the railway is maintained? How do you think this can be changed?

I answered that in the same post;

A 24 hour service on the Cross City line, even if it was only hourly, would be fantastic. Even if there was engineering works preventing the rail service from running, there would (I assume) be a Rail Replacement laid on, so either way, in the small hours of the morning, I would be getting home without the need for a hefty taxi fee.

 

[nedchester]

Aren't NR a month out of date with this story..................?

 

[DarloRich]

I answered that in the same post;

no you didn't. The point of this exercise is to facilitate 24 hour running, not bustitiution on a regular basis.

 

[[.n]]

Wasn't the Gatwick Express 24 hours when it first started?

 

[Taunton]

Everyone above seems to think this is some new and revolutionary (and for several, impractical) approach. However do you think the railway managed back in BR times and for 150 years before. The WCML had it's busiest period overnight. Sleeper, normal passenger, parcels, mail, freight, etc all running block-to-block. Likewise I've seen Taunton have all four main line platforms occupied at 3am. 2-track main lines. Even 3rd rail electric lines like Waterloo to Portsmouth ran frequent services all night.

 

[jon0844]

(Mark Carne) said trains could be operating 24/7 across the UK in the “not-too-distant future”.

Is this our future or railway industry future? I'd love to know if we're talking a few years or a whole generation!

For now I'm happy to see a later train from King's Cross on a Saturday night (even if only by about 30 minutes) in line with weekday services. But that's still 0140 with the next train not until after 5am.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Thing is - most of us aren't even asking for 24 hour running! We just want later last services!

 

[diffident]

no you didn't. The point of this exercise is to facilitate 24 hour running, not bustitiution on a regular basis.

At no point did I suggest that bustitution would be on a regular basis!! On the occasions where there would be engineering works, I would take a bustitution - my point being that when there is weekend or bank-holiday engineering works, this is what happens during the day. I can't see why it would be any different at night - other than it would be dark.

 

[Spartacus]

A 24 hour service on the Cross City line, even if it was only hourly, would be fantastic. Even if there was engineering works preventing the rail service from running, there would (I assume) be a Rail Replacement laid on, so either way, in the small hours of the morning, I would be getting home without the need for a hefty taxi fee.

I suspect then you might find dated timetables that omitted services or stops during the periods when maintenance was needed to the extent of the train being unable to run at all, or it could be terminated short, it might then be just an Aston - Longbridge via Camp Hill for instance. Dewsbury used to be served by the overnight TPEs, with rail replacement during engineering. Then the rail replacement was unofficially dropped in favour of taxis as required. When it was pointed out they shouldn't be doing that they just dropped Dewsbury entirely.

 

[DarloRich]

At no point did I suggest that bustitution would be on a regular basis!! On the occasions where there would be engineering works, I would take a bustitution - my point being that when there is weekend or bank-holiday engineering works, this is what happens during the day. I can't see why it would be any different at night - other than it would be dark.

it is clear you don't grasp the point. It isn't about big blockades but the small scale work that goes on on a regular basis. The line is closed but there is no distribution as there are no trains and no service impact as long as the possession is given up in time for the start of service the following morning.

Access for that kind of work isnt possible during the day so it happens in the 5 or 6 hours dead time at night. I know a lot of this work isnt visible to travelers/enthusiasts but it goes on all the time and is vital. How and when is that work going to be delivered?

For a big blockade I see no change. The small scale stuff is the problem.

 

[cactustwirly]

it is clear you don't grasp the point. It isn't about big blockades but the small scale work that goes on on a regular basis. The line is closed but there is no distribution as there are no trains and no service impact as long as the possession is given up in time for the start of service the following morning.

Access for that kind of work isnt possible during the day so it happens in the 5 or 6 hours dead time at night. I know a lot of this work isnt visible to travelers/enthusiasts but it goes on all the time and is vital. How and when is that work going to be delivered?

For a big blockade I see no change. The small scale stuff is the problem.

Which is why it only happens on lines like the GWML, where a pair of tracks is closed from around 9pm to 5am to allow maintenace to be carried out.
The overnight services obviously using the pair of lines that aren't closed.
The networks seems to cope alright with overnight freight trains.

 

[diffident]

it is clear you don't grasp the point.

Obviously having an opposing opinion and view point attracts insults.

Let me try and expand on my lack of grasp of the point to try and explain more clearly.

My example uses the metropolitan Birmingham area, and more specifically focuses on the Cross City line (although the same logic could be applied to the Wolverhampton, Walsall and Coventry local services).

For the avoidance of doubt, and to nip in the bud this engineering bit - I get that "small-scale" work and line closures are a necessity overnight.

Now to my point: In Birmingham, other than to Birmingham Airport, there are no 24 hour bus services. A train scheduled to run say - Four Oaks to Longbridge via Birmingham New Street hourly throughout the night, once an hour, would be providing a service that I envisage would be popular given the number of night workers, let alone revellers in the City Centre.

If engineering work is taking place at any point, the service would be curtailed and replaced with bustitution. Regardless whether this bustitution was a regular occurrence or not, it would be a public service that currently doesn't exist.

Now my point was, and still is this: I often finish work after the last buses and trains of the day. It is excruciatingly expensive to get home using taxi's. I would welcome a 24 hour service on the Cross City line, even if I ended up on a bus, because at least there would be a service, where currently there is none at all.

 

[swaldman]

Excuse my ignorance, but doesn't much of the system have 24-hr running already, but with the nights mostly dedicated to freight? Or am I wrong?
If so, presumably maintenance somehow happens around that? I appreciate that passengers are probably more time-sensitive, though.

 

[Spartacus]

As I say, with the example of the cross city I think there'd be periods of the timetable with a curtailed service if the TOC could get away with it, and therefore no bus, and if it wasn't a franchise commitment I'm sure they would. I think that in the main there wouldn't be many overnight 'locals' for that reason, too many stations which would be cut off due to engineering requiring an alternative solution. There's probably not enough demand to warrant it, if there was there would probably be more late buses, it's inevitably usually much easier for them to run a service locally.

 

[700007]

Does the GWR Thames Valley and TPE really count as night services when they're so sporadic and infrequent? The only TOC who I know operate an actual night service is ThamesLink doing the 2tph from Bedford to Three Bridges daily and the London Overground from Highbury to New Cross Gate.

This is much welcomed news as I can see this rolling out on a number of routes successfully. Euston to Milton Keynes Central and Liverpool Street to Chelmsford / Southend could work well.

This would also be a good opportunity to introduce additional night services through the ThamesLink core that head onto the ECML. Perhaps one train per hour to Letchworth via Welwyn and one train to Stevenage via Hertford.