Network Rail looking at how it could bring in 24 hour train service

[underbank]

When the article says 'across the UK', there may be some limited demand in major cities and conurbations for later night services on Fri/sat, but I somehow doubt there is demand on the most lines.

Maybe not throughout the night, but later services from say London Euston up the WCML would be popular so people could actually stay in the capital into the evening and be able to travel home by train instead of having to pay for expensive overnight accommodation. It's been crazy that it's been impossible for people living in the North West and further north not to be able to use the train to see football matches at Wembley for example.

 

[mrmartin]

It would be great if the north london line was 24 hours on weekends. There seems to be little engineering/freight scheduled so could easily run a 2tph service. It would make a big difference, that route is very poorly served by alternatives (usually involves going into central london + back, causing a 500% increase in journey times). Last trains are always crush loaded also.

 

[6Gman]

Now to my point: In Birmingham, other than to Birmingham Airport, there are no 24 hour bus services. A train scheduled to run say - Four Oaks to Longbridge via Birmingham New Street hourly throughout the night, once an hour, would be providing a service that I envisage would be popular given the number of night workers, let alone revellers in the City Centre.

If there's insufficient custom to support a (relatively cheap) bus service why would there be sufficient custom to support a (relatively expensive) rail service?

 

[ArchieWoodbine]

Everyone above seems to think this is some new and revolutionary (and for several, impractical) approach. However do you think the railway managed back in BR times and for 150 years before. The WCML had it's busiest period overnight. Sleeper, normal passenger, parcels, mail, freight, etc all running block-to-block. Likewise I've seen Taunton have all four main line platforms occupied at 3am. 2-track main lines. Even 3rd rail electric lines like Waterloo to Portsmouth ran frequent services all night.

Exactly. If anything, this a return to the norm.

Just another example of NR media failing to understand the history of their industry and trying to claim brownie-points for things that should be standard.

 

[mark-h]

Assuming that there is flexibility between the use of Queen Street and Central there are two completely separate routes between Edinburgh Waverley and Glasgow (with more routing choices for most parts of the journey).

It should be possible to run an Edinburgh to Glasgow service every night- however the serving of intermediate stops would not be certain as this would depend on which lines happen to be open. This restricts the service to passengers who are travelling between the two cities and exclude those from towns in-between. This may have a serious impact on the viability of the service (if it is viable in any case).

 

[Deafdoggie]

When the article says 'across the UK', there may be some limited demand in major cities and conurbations for later night services on Fri/sat, but I somehow doubt there is demand on the most lines.

Do you think they'll be a late night Stockport-Stalybridge?

 

[Clip]

Exactly. If anything, this a return to the norm.

Just another example of NR media failing to understand the history of their industry and trying to claim brownie-points for things that should be standard.

Id say a large part of the population doesnt understand the history of the industry either and this sort of news would be welcome by those who dont understand it but obviously want much later trains to get home.

Most of the big cities that have an active nightlife for at least 4 days a week should be seeing something much later than they currently have to places outlying even if the last services are possible request stops - at least people can get home.

With regards to maintenence - thats something for Network Rail to sort out if it is going to make claims about wanting to run 24 hour services not for us or passengers to worry about

 

[DarloRich]

Which is why it only happens on lines like the GWML, where a pair of tracks is closed from around 9pm to 5am to allow maintenace to be carried out.
The overnight services obviously using the pair of lines that aren't closed.
The networks seems to cope alright with overnight freight trains.

it will work fine on a multi track railway. The WCML already runs as a two track railway overnight to facilitate access. Freight is a tricky one. It keeps rolling but often by altered routes.

Obviously having an opposing opinion and view point attracts insults.

that isnt an insult. I think we may be talking at cross purposes.

Let me try and expand on my lack of grasp of the point to try and explain more clearly.

My example uses the metropolitan Birmingham area, and more specifically focuses on the Cross City line (although the same logic could be applied to the Wolverhampton, Walsall and Coventry local services).

For the avoidance of doubt, and to nip in the bud this engineering bit - I get that "small-scale" work and line closures are a necessity overnight.

Now to my point: In Birmingham, other than to Birmingham Airport, there are no 24 hour bus services. A train scheduled to run say - Four Oaks to Longbridge via Birmingham New Street hourly throughout the night, once an hour, would be providing a service that I envisage would be popular given the number of night workers, let alone revellers in the City Centre.

If engineering work is taking place at any point, the service would be curtailed and replaced with bustitution. Regardless whether this bustitution was a regular occurrence or not, it would be a public service that currently doesn't exist.

Now my point was, and still is this: I often finish work after the last buses and trains of the day. It is excruciatingly expensive to get home using taxi's. I would welcome a 24 hour service on the Cross City line, even if I ended up on a bus, because at least there would be a service, where currently there is none at all.

The Cross city line in a big city like Birmingham is exactly where this kind of service should run. You are saying that this would be a fantastic boon to the public and a great addition to existing public services. I agree. The issue is making it work. The line is going to be closed, unless something changes, on a fairly regular basis to facilitate maintenance work which undermines the point of a 24 hour railway. Is the service going to attract customers if it is replaced by a bus? I don't see the point of advertising a 24hr railway if we put people on the bus!

As above on a multi track railway like WCML south an overnight service should be fairly easy to arrange in principle. It is going to be harder on twin track railways. There needs to be some changes to how and when that maintenance work is done. One option might be chopping back the service earlier on a Sunday or on a mid week night rather than the weekend, another might be working with one line open and cutting the service to fit. There are options to explore but they require changes in both NR and the TOC's

 

[daikilo]

This story is a bit strange as BR used to run a 24hr railway from Sunday midday to Saturday evening. There were sleeper, news and mail trains as well as freight. Sometimes the closure period was extended to Sunday evening and not everywhere was closed.

 

[diffident]

If there's insufficient custom to support a (relatively cheap) bus service why would there be sufficient custom to support a (relatively expensive) rail service?

This is another interesting point. The sheer numbers of people in and around Birmingham City Centre in the early hours of the morning, even in mid-week, is quite remarkable.

I've not seen any independent research into how many of these people would opt for a journey home via public transport as opposed to expensive taxi's, or driving themselves.

I'd bet that if a reliable night rail (or bus) service was introduced and properly marketed, it would prove a success.

 

[edwin_m]

If engineering work is taking place at any point, the service would be curtailed and replaced with bustitution. Regardless whether this bustitution was a regular occurrence or not, it would be a public service that currently doesn't exist.

Let me try to explain DarloRich's point from a different angle.

Currently every line on the network has some opportunity for routine maintenance access. It is at least one overnight per week and on many lines it is more than that. No trains are scheduled so maintainers can go in to do any work necessary without disrupting anyone, as long as it is finished within the engineering access hours. This is very valuable for small jobs such as inspection and minor repairs, that need to take place frequently or to be arranged at short notice to avert an imminent failure.

If a particular track is used 24/7 then this sort of access is impossible. According to industry rules it would have to be a "disruptive possession" for which 12 weeks notice must be given and the operators must be compensated. This would make maintaining the line very much more expensive and reduce reliability - if it is possible at all. Perhaps the rules could be changed to reduce the notice period for overnight possessions but this would inconvenience some passengers. Note that although some of the details are different, the reason the Night Tube is only two days a week is fundamentally the same.

I deliberately mentioned "track" not "route" and I agree if there are multiple tracks then overnight service might be run while some of them are closed (though some engineering tasks are difficult with the adjacent line still open). I would be very surprised if TfL wasn't pushing NR to introduce a "Night Crossrail" in the future, using whichever two of the four tracks at a low frequency and probably a longer journey time. However it wouldn't stop at all the stations, as some don't have platforms on all tracks.

I'm inclined to think this is one of many areas where we suffer from poor integration of rail and buses. Late at night there is little traffic in most places so buses can be faster and more reliable, and it's probably easier to provide security than on a train. There may be places where it would be worth running a night bus, advertised in the rail timetable and honouring the return portion of rail tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this our future or railway industry future? I'd love to know if we're talking a few years or a whole generation!

For now I'm happy to see a later train from King's Cross on a Saturday night (even if only by about 30 minutes) in line with weekday services. But that's still 0140 with the next train not until after 5am.

What would be interesting to see would be what the effect on the Lowland Sleepers would be of a Pendolino from Glasgow to Euston and vice versa departing at around 0400. I could see such a service being popular - much as I love the romance of the Sleepers, if I'm going to have to sit at a desk all day without dozing off I would be much better off having 4 hours' sleep in my own bed than 8 hours' non-sleep on a train. And having done a few years' worth of weekly commutes of various kinds I've got plenty of experience to back this up.

(My real preference for a weekly commute is to arrive at about 1200 on the Monday, leave around 1400 on the Thursday and work from home on the Friday, making up for lost hours by working longer days, but not every client is OK with that)

 

[SamYeager]

On a more prosaic point where are the drivers/train managers/OBS/guards/dispatchers going to come from to run these services? Even if you're only talking about drivers the impression I've gained from reading these forums that there's not a vast surplus of drivers just waiting around to be deployed to this.

 

[Highlandspring]

What would be interesting to see would be what the effect on the Lowland Sleepers would be of a Pendolino from Glasgow to Euston and vice versa departing at around 0400.

There already is one, 1R20 0426 Glasgow Central - London Euston. I understand it’s usually reasonably busy on departure from Glasgow too.

 

[Chris172]

Obviously having an opposing opinion and view point attracts insults.

Let me try and expand on my lack of grasp of the point to try and explain more clearly.

My example uses the metropolitan Birmingham area, and more specifically focuses on the Cross City line (although the same logic could be applied to the Wolverhampton, Walsall and Coventry local services).

For the avoidance of doubt, and to nip in the bud this engineering bit - I get that "small-scale" work and line closures are a necessity overnight.

Now to my point: In Birmingham, other than to Birmingham Airport, there are no 24 hour bus services. A train scheduled to run say - Four Oaks to Longbridge via Birmingham New Street hourly throughout the night, once an hour, would be providing a service that I envisage would be popular given the number of night workers, let alone revellers in the City Centre.

If engineering work is taking place at any point, the service would be curtailed and replaced with bustitution. Regardless whether this bustitution was a regular occurrence or not, it would be a public service that currently doesn't exist.

Now my point was, and still is this: I often finish work after the last buses and trains of the day. It is excruciatingly expensive to get home using taxi's. I would welcome a 24 hour service on the Cross City line, even if I ended up on a bus, because at least there would be a service, where currently there is none at all.

There are a few 24 hour routes (74 Birmingham to West Bromwich, 63 Birmingham to Selly Oak and X1 Birmingham to airport which you have mentioned) these run 7 days a week whilst there are some weekend exclusives (50 Birmingham to Maypole and 9 Birmingham to Halesowen).

I agree there is a potential market for the 24 hour cross city and maybe an hourly service on the snow hill lines Stourbridge to Solihull calling at Cradley, rowley, Smethwick and Hawthorns then snow hill/moor street, Small Heath, Acocks Green and Solihull (less than an hour, minimum of 2 trains needed). Sorry for the long idea but busier stations served.

Only problem with a night service is the strikes “we ain’t getting paid enough” to start.

 

[Stampy]

I'd be nice if they could run a service from (say) Birmingham to Stansted Airport overnight (and the other way)...

Currently, here in Peterborough:-

The last trains on the Stansted to Birmingham route leave at roughly the same time (2021 Stansted & 2025 B'ham) and then that's it until (0519 from B'ham & 0516 from Stansted)

Unless of course, you want to travel via London!!!

It's a bit of a trek, if you've got either a early/late flight @ Stansted!!!!

 

[exile]

A little strange. Until a few years ago most lines were very much 24/7 operations, and even now a lot of freight moves at night. But night passenger trains have more or less disappeared from the network, leaving the overnight travel market, limited as it is., to coach companies. I presume the idea is to have late night services on suburban lines, but outside Greater London I'm not sure there's the demand. (There are several large cities that don't even have night buses)

 

[Clip]

A little strange. Until a few years ago most lines were very much 24/7 operations, and even now a lot of freight moves at night. But night passenger trains have more or less disappeared from the network, leaving the overnight travel market, limited as it is., to coach companies. I presume the idea is to have late night services on suburban lines, but outside Greater London I'm not sure there's the demand. (There are several large cities that don't even have night buses)

i bet there's plenty of suppressed demand due to them not running.

anything out of Manchester to most local places is a well early finish which stops people from either going there or has to be a can back. As i said above these services could be request stops so it doesn't slow them too much.

 

[Andrew1395]

It would be quite good if you could get a 21.00 and later train to London on a Saturday and Sunday evening from a few more provincial cities. Like Manchester for example

 

[edwin_m]

A little strange. Until a few years ago most lines were very much 24/7 operations, and even now a lot of freight moves at night. But night passenger trains have more or less disappeared from the network, leaving the overnight travel market, limited as it is., to coach companies. I presume the idea is to have late night services on suburban lines, but outside Greater London I'm not sure there's the demand. (There are several large cities that don't even have night buses)

Most of the night trains were basically parcels, mail or newspaper workings with a coach or two attached for passengers, and I suspect also for staff who needed to be places at odd times!). The loss of those traffics made them unviable, also removing most of the need for staff movement. Quicker daytime services, often starting earlier and finishing later, made it less likely that people would use a slow and elderly night train - at least for leaving London in the evening or going there in the morning, though there is less demand in the other direction. And with increased health and safety rules and fewer trained people it became more difficult to implement single line working so engineering work was more likely to require all lines blocked.

 

[LAX54]

Presumably this is for Friday and Saturday nights only? There will always need to be some scheduled time for maintenance.

Maybe a Friday, but Saturday night far too much Engineering work !

 

[Class 170101]

How much support does Carne have from the engineers on the ground? I suspect the answer is none. Health and safety standards will also scupper what went on 30 years plus ago. NR seem to want to have more green zone working and abolish red zone working where they can.

As Chief Planner noted we had the seven day railway scheme which turned into a joke of which seven days will we be able to run trains.

Edwin I hate to say it but the T-12 to which you refer is when operators should be able to tell their passengers of affected journeys. MR should give the operators more like 26 to 30 weeks confirmed notice of disruptive possessions possessions. However NR in my experience are getting worse and not better at providing such notice.

 

[LAX54]

Excuse my ignorance, but doesn't much of the system have 24-hr running already, but with the nights mostly dedicated to freight? Or am I wrong?
If so, presumably maintenance somehow happens around that? I appreciate that passengers are probably more time-sensitive, though.

Freight is different beast to passenger services, the timetable is slacker, the routes one freight can take could change every night, in our area, if we have 'blocks' on the GEML, they will run via Bury and Peterboro, and vice versa for X country traffic, this of course would not work with passenger services, plus if we have 'blocks' between trains, which is over running a bit, a freight can and does sit at a red light for a while waiting the road to be given back, I could see maybe a very limited service Mon - Thurs, but not at weekends.
People tend to think the Railway winds down at night, when in fact 0000 to 0400 can be a darn sight busier !!

 

[OxtedSignaller]

An extension of BML night services to Brighton would be welcome but can’t see it being feasible on the two track stretch not with maintenance works. Let’s get the daytime service right before we start thinking about 24 hour running.

 

[Bald Rick]

Interesting responses.

It is worth pointing out that quite a lot of routes on the network are already open 24h, with access for maintenance etc limited to weekends. Much of the WCML, MML and ECML for instance. The issue is that the operators don’t run overnight (or in some cases late) trains as:
a) they generally don’t make money and
b) they are not specified in their franchise agreements.

What Mark Carne is saying in the article (which is worth reading) is that he is expecting more operators, and other interested parties (transport authorities, or airports for example) to start asking for more overnight services. In some cases this is happening now. So what NR is doing is some up front planning to work out what it would take to enable this on routes that are currently closed overnight.

I can tell you it is not easy, as it essentially means swapping a load of maintenance into one night a week - usually Saturday or Sunday night. And that means a lot more people in maintenance, because they are already maxed out on those nights. And more people means more cost, and someone has to pay.

Having been personally involved in the ‘seven day railway’ initiative a few years ago, I can advise it was set up with laudable objectives, but unrealistic expectations. In particular many people missed the key, second, word in the initiative. It most certainly wasn’t the seven night railway initiative.

 

[jon0844]

I expect that if you run night trains, when engineering work is required the operator must find and run buses. That can be quite awkward to manage, from having the buses available to finding the drivers, the coordinators, making sure they know where they're going, can keep to a timetable, and the stations having sufficient signage to direct people to buses if it's not immediately outside the station (WGC is a good example, where there needs to be an arrangement made with the adjacent shopping centre).

It's all doable, but I bet the issue of who pays for what is a hurdle that has to be overcome too.

 

[deltic]

Didnt the Chris Gibb review of Southern highlight that the overnight trains mainly carried fresh air during the week and were rationalised to allow better access for maintenance. There may well be a case for later trains on Friday and Saturday nights on some routes but there would appear to be little evidence for widespread 7 days a week 24hr a day services. I travelled on plenty of overnight trains in BR days and many were virtually empty. There have been a number of studies done looking at running night coach services on key rail corridors out of London but they never came to anything - demand seems to be fairly erratic and one way only so making the whole operation uneconomic. How many cities are linked by 24hr coach services? I know London-Oxford and Edinburgh-Glasgow are - any others?

 

[jon0844]

Didnt the Chris Gibb review of Southern highlight that the overnight trains mainly carried fresh air during the week and were rationalised to allow better access for maintenance. There may well be a case for later trains on Friday and Saturday nights on some routes but there would appear to be little evidence for widespread 7 days a week 24hr a day services. I travelled on plenty of overnight trains in BR days and many were virtually empty. There have been a number of studies done looking at running night coach services on key rail corridors out of London but they never came to anything - demand seems to be fairly erratic and one way only so making the whole operation uneconomic. How many cities are linked by 24hr coach services? I know London-Oxford and Edinburgh-Glasgow are - any others?

Yes, the last KGX to PBO train (0135 from KGX) is usually near empty by Hatfield or WGC, let alone Peterborough, in the week. It is somewhat different on the weekend though.

 

[gingerheid]

Everyone above seems to think this is some new and revolutionary (and for several, impractical) approach. However do you think the railway managed back in BR times and for 150 years before. The WCML had it's busiest period overnight. Sleeper, normal passenger, parcels, mail, freight, etc all running block-to-block. Likewise I've seen Taunton have all four main line platforms occupied at 3am. 2-track main lines. Even 3rd rail electric lines like Waterloo to Portsmouth ran frequent services all night.

If we mention the positives of BR it's probably fair to mention the negatives as well, and we should remember that at that time long distance travel on the WCML could be an absolute nightmare. I spent many hours trying to pick relatives up from Glasgow Central (pre information age of course, as it was then) and the delays were typically and routinely horrendous (as well as there being far less trains during the day).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Having been personally involved in the ‘seven day railway’ initiative a few years ago, I can advise it was set up with laudable objectives, but unrealistic expectations. In particular many people missed the key, second, word in the initiative. It most certainly wasn’t the seven night railway initiative.


Fair comment - and that sort of delivered better awareness of the (Sunday) railway options and needs. Not sure if the money spent really delivered value.

As mentioned before , a city like London - maybe Birmingham -and maybe some key routes in other cities where airports etc are involved could maybe deliver some new all night services on a local / regional basis - but no-one in their right minds is going to consider say Sheffield - St Pancras either at stupid o clock.

All needs subsidy of course.