Northern's Problems in the North West

[Carlisle]

Please refer up thread, where people who are directly involved said the Rest Day Working Agreement was allowed to lapse, it had an end date. ASLEF withdrew nothing, Northern appear to not be treating the establishment of a new RDWA as a priority.

Yes as I said earlier not the individual drivers fault, it’s down to a weakly managed industry signing flimsy agreements very heavily wiighted in the unions favour,,respect needs to come equally from both sides in recent times it hasn’t done which is mainly why DFT is trying to force changes on the industry whether they’ll ultimately achieve progress or not , who knows ?

 

[gazzaa2]

More chaos today. The 06.03 Warrington Central to Liverpool hasn't run all week.
This will carry on for the foreseeable future as people seem to assume that all those drivers on "essential driver training " will return and everything will be ok. Well it won't,the drivers out training can be counted in single figures.
The worrying thing about this is that Arriva don't seem bothered.

That's my train in the morning from one of the later stops. Absolute joke. It's usually quite reliable but started having 1 or 2 cancellations a week recently and then this week not run at all. And then we're into June-July soon when the service doesn't run due to Lime St closure and a strike day next week. We've had Lime St closed last year for part 1 and plus that extra closure due to debris at Edge Hill, countless strike days and now this latest farce.

I got drenched the other day as well stood at the bloody bus stop when this was cancelled last minute.

 

[Red Devil]

Yes as I said earlier not the individual drivers fault, it’s down to a weakly managed industry signing flimsy agreements very heavily wiighted in the unions favour,,respect needs to come equally from both sides in recent times it hasn’t done which is mainly why DFT is trying to force changes on the industry whether they’ll ultimately achieve progress or not , who knows ?

Ok. Say I or any of my fellow drivers didn't want to work our rest days, whether we had a RDW agreement or not the situation would be as it is now. As I've repeatedly said there's not enough drivers to cover the work.
It's nothing to do with the unions running the show it's the company relying on drivers to work their rest days to run the train plan.

 

[Red Devil]

Ps. The Dft can enforce as many changes as it likes but if they gave a free for all on RDW and still drivers decided to not work, then what? Same cancellations as before.
As I said resume RDW get drivers trained up,train plan covered. Happy days

 

[Starmill]

so there will effectively be hourly services Blackpool South - Colne, Colne - Ormskirk, and Ormskirk - Blackpool South.

Passengers booking Ormskirk to Blackpool South will be told to get off at Preston and wait for an hour because the train restarts there in less than the minimum connection time. Of course, once on the actual train the guard is likely to inform them that they can arrive an hour early, but how many people will get that far when they go onto the website and see it takes well over 2 hours to make that journey?

 

[Red Devil]

Or to take Carlisle's line. Instead of being in hoc to the unions, employ more drivers.

 

[Bovverboy]

Bovverboy said: ↑
so there will effectively be hourly services Blackpool South - Colne, Colne - Ormskirk, and Ormskirk - Blackpool South.

Starmill said
Passengers booking Ormskirk to Blackpool South will be told to get off at Preston and wait for an hour because the train restarts there in less than the minimum connection time.

Well, the journey planner will tell them that, but this is nothing new, there are plenty of situations where the journey planner will indicate a non-connection when the connection is, in reality, perfectly possible. For instance, the xx.27 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road stoppers don't officially connect at Oxford Road with the EMT Nottingham/Norwich trains, but in reality they do, since
1) the two trains pull into adjacent platforms at Oxford Road;
2) the EMT is trapped behind the stopper.
People will quickly tumble to the fact that BPS-CNE, CNE-OMS and OMS-BPS are effectively going to be through services. Incidentally, because Preston is (I believe) an 8-minute interchange station, what you have said about OMS-BPS applies also to BPS-CNE and CNE-OMS. I have checked the journey planner and found that all those links ostensibly include an hour drop-back at Preston.
I really can't think why the above aren't (apparently) going to be advertised as through services, there have always been plenty of instances of a through journey being possible in one direction but not the other.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Or to take Carlisle's line. Instead of being in hoc to the unions, employ more drivers.

Isn’t that official ASLEF policy to employ enough drivers to operate the basic timetable?

I also note from ASLEF’s website the RDW agreement lapsed in February. If that is correct then that gave Northern ample time to try to at least get something sorted for when Blackpool North reopened, even if it was an emergency timetable and makes the fact they didn’t make any public announcement until the Friday before the line reopened even more unforgiveable.

I’m really struggling to find anybody to blame for the current mess other than Arriva and Northern management.

 

[Audioguy]

That's assuming they bother to deal with the claims. I've been waiting over two months for one.

And its assuming that people will bother to claim. If I was coming up from London on an advance ticket and my Northern train on the last short part of my trip was delayed I would assume the refund would be a tiny part of the ticket price and not worry. I dont travel on Northern often but the ticket prices are low enough the hassle of claiming is not worth it and if I did manage to get to where I needed to be I count myself lucky.

 

[Starmill]

Well, the journey planner will tell them that, but this is nothing new, there are plenty of situations where the journey planner will indicate a non-connection when the connection is, in reality, perfectly possible. For instance, the xx.27 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road stoppers don't officially connect at Oxford Road with the EMT Nottingham/Norwich trains, but in reality they do, since
1) the two trains pull into adjacent platforms at Oxford Road;
2) the EMT is trapped behind the stopper.
People will quickly tumble to the fact that BPS-CNE, CNE-OMS and OMS-BPS are effectively going to be through services. Incidentally, because Preston is (I believe) an 8-minute interchange station, what you have said about OMS-BPS applies also to BPS-CNE and CNE-OMS. I have checked the journey planner and found that all those links ostensibly include an hour drop-back at Preston.
I really can't think why the above aren't (apparently) going to be advertised as through services, there have always been plenty of instances of a through journey being possible in one direction but not the other.

Naturally, there are lots of instances of that. But in your Manchester Oxford Road example there is an actual change of trains involved. In this case, there isn't.

I don't get why they haven't been put in as through trains. It's as if Northern intentionally wish to make their services less competitive.

 

[158756]

People will quickly tumble to the fact that BPS-CNE, CNE-OMS and OMS-BPS are effectively going to be through services.

People might discover that there are still through trains from Blackburn, Accrington or Burnley to Blackpool because they can probably make the journey anyway with connections that aren't too bad. Anyone travelling between Ormskirk and Blackpool or Colne or smaller stations in East Lancs and Blackpool will never know that the train continues at Preston because they'll see the hour long wait at Preston and not bother.

Not advertising through services will give them more flexibility and less compensation to pay when all the single line sections involved inevitably cause everything to run late.

On the main issue of the thread - it is ridiculous that the railway industry relies on overtime to function on a day to day basis, but the DfT aren't likely to magic up the millions required to fix it any time soon.

 

[Audioguy]

People will quickly tumble to the fact that BPS-CNE, CNE-OMS and OMS-BPS are effectively going to be through services. Incidentally, because Preston is (I believe) an 8-minute interchange station, what you have said about OMS-BPS applies also to BPS-CNE and CNE-OMS. I have checked the journey planner and found that all those links ostensibly include an hour drop-back at Preston.
I really can't think why the above aren't (apparently) going to be advertised as through services, there have always been plenty of instances of a through journey being possible in one direction but not the other.

Historically the trains would have all been on one public timetable. It would have been a little more difficult to read but it would have shown all of the trains, where they go to and from and where you could get on and off. Northern obviously thinks it is easier for the public to make simple little pocket timetables that split the services up by 'line'.

 

[BlueFox]

I dont travel on Northern often but the ticket prices are low enough the hassle of claiming is not worth it

What you can claim from Northern can be worth a lot more than you paid for the ticket.

I was delayed almost three hours, so rather than claim for the value of the ticket (£10), I've asked for two Northern only return tickets. I'll probably use them on Carlisle to Nottingham journeys. If I pay full price those journeys would cost me over £80 each.

 

[Starmill]

And its assuming that people will bother to claim. If I was coming up from London on an advance ticket and my Northern train on the last short part of my trip was delayed I would assume the refund would be a tiny part of the ticket price and not worry. I dont travel on Northern often but the ticket prices are low enough the hassle of claiming is not worth it and if I did manage to get to where I needed to be I count myself lucky.

It depends on the journey you make.

If you have an Anytime Single from London to Euxton Balshaw Lane, and your train for London arrives on time at Wigan North Western, but your connecting Northern serve is cancelled causing you to arrive one hour late, Northern have to pay you the full £175.50 in Delay Repay. The facts that they will not have taken that much money from the sale of that ticket, or that you were delayed over just a tiny proportion of that ticket are irrelevant.

 

[childwallblues]

The cancellations seem to be increasing each day, with the Windermere line and Victoria-Wigan/Preston services bearing the brunt of the problems. Are Northern able to implement an emergency timetable to ensure they can cover all services or would the DfT not approve this?

Perhaps they should negotiate a new rest day agreement with the unions.

 

[Red Devil]

Isn’t that official ASLEF policy to employ enough drivers to operate the basic timetable?

I also note from ASLEF’s website the RDW agreement lapsed in February. If that is correct then that gave Northern ample time to try to at least get something sorted for when Blackpool North reopened, even if it was an emergency timetable and makes the fact they didn’t make any public announcement until the Friday before the line reopened even more unforgiveable.

I’m really struggling to find anybody to blame for the current mess other than Arriva and Northern management.

But ASLEF don't do the employing. Arriva management have the blame firmly at their door. Fewer cancellations today but normal service resumes on Monday.

 

[PHILIPE]

The Windermere Branch service has been decimated all week.

 

[Red Devil]

The Windermere Branch service has been decimated all week.

And will be for the foreseeable future

 

[PHILIPE]

And will be for the foreseeable future

After looking at RTT discovered is not as bad after all but there are still cancellations.

 

[gazzaa2]

It's been total chaos all week. If it was London you'd have national news coverage.

The service has been a disgrace.

 

[LeylandLen]

People might discover that there are still through trains from Blackburn, Accrington or Burnley to Blackpool because they can probably make the journey anyway with connections that aren't too bad. Anyone travelling between Ormskirk and Blackpool or Colne or smaller stations in East Lancs and Blackpool will never know that the train continues at Preston because they'll see the hour long wait at Preston and not bother.

Not advertising through services will give them more flexibility and less compensation to pay when all the single line sections involved inevitably cause everything to run late.

On the main issue of the thread - it is ridiculous that the railway industry relies on overtime to function on a day to day basis, but the DfT aren't likely to magic up the millions required to fix it any time soon.

As I see it, for an Ormskirk to Blackpool South journey , you are told to change at Preston when in fact the train you joined at Ormskirk does go on as a 'different' service to Blackpool S , so in fact you get back on the train you have just left. I imagine if you have luggage or young children plus luggage , or being elderly , not too mobile,you might not be too pleased ! Especially if you are travelling from Liverpool and already had to change at Ormskirk !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Passengers booking Ormskirk to Blackpool South will be told to get off at Preston and wait for an hour because the train restarts there in less than the minimum connection time. Of course, once on the actual train the guard is likely to inform them that they can arrive an hour early, but how many people will get that far when they go onto the website and see it takes well over 2 hours to make that journey?

That does presently seem to be an issue, but I'm sure it's possible to enter shorter connections for specific destinations (I can't remember where I've seen it before but I'm certain I have) so this should be fixable.

TBH I think they should advertise them as through trains even if there is the oddity that they are through trains only in one direction. Station signage could be used to explain why.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I see it, for an Ormskirk to Blackpool South journey , you are told to change at Preston when in fact the train you joined at Ormskirk does go on as a 'different' service to Blackpool S , so in fact you get back on the train you have just left. I imagine if you have luggage or young children plus luggage , or being elderly , not too mobile,you might not be too pleased ! Especially if you are travelling from Liverpool and already had to change at Ormskirk !

Yes, but look at the journey planners, they see them as separate trains, which means they don't think a 0 minute connection is adequate. So you get a journey plan with an hour stood at Preston.

The Windermere Branch service has been decimated all week.

Only a tenth lopped off? Bet it was worse than that

 

[B&I]

Instead of your normal hard left rhetoric about public = good, private = bad, what do you suggest they do?

So, pointing out that a privatised rail operator is making a pig's breakfast out of running what should be a vital public service is 'hard left rhetoric' ? Oh my aching sides.

Instead of name-calling your political opponents to distract away from the current embarrassing clash between reality and your world view, why don't you provide some market-based solution to this problem, since markets solve everything, apparently.

 

[Red Devil]

After looking at RTT discovered is not as bad after all but there are still cancellations.

Weekends are ok. Only 2 jobs uncovered at our place today as opposed to the 10 or 12 in the week. And drivers working Sundays now to compensate for lack of rest days.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Yes, but look at the journey planners, they see them as separate trains, which means they don't think a 0 minute connection is adequate. So you get a journey plan with an hour stood at Preston.



Only a tenth lopped off? Bet it was worse than that

Decimated means reduced to a tenth of its previous size.

 

[Rail Ranger]

although I see that in Latin it did mean to eliminate 1 in 10.

 

[BlueFox]

Decimated means reduced to a tenth of its previous size.

No it doesn't.

verb (transitive)
1. to destroy or kill a large proportion of: a plague decimated the population
2. (esp in the ancient Roman army) to kill every tenth man of (a mutinous section)

 

[Carlisle]

Ok. Say I or any of my fellow drivers didn't want to work our rest days, whether we had a RDW agreement or not the situation would be as it is now. As I've repeatedly said there's not enough drivers to cover the work.
It's nothing to do with the unions running the show it's the company relying on drivers to work their rest days to run the train plan.

Ok, have Arriva completely banned RDW since the agreement ended? if so the resultant problems are pretty much all their fault, if they haven’t but most drivers that would normally work some overtime are collectively turning it all down on advice from their union then it’s really a dispute in all but name .

 

[Tractor2018]

Ok, have Arriva completely banned RDW since the agreement ended? if so the resultant problems are pretty much all their fault, if they haven’t but most drivers that would normally work some overtime are collectively turning it all down on advice from their union then it’s really a dispute in all but name .

Nobody bans RDW, unless they're in dispute? There was an agreement? It was dependant on both parties complying with the agreement, as most agreements are? The company haven't - so there's obviously no agreement between the two parties to enable RDW?