Northern's Problems in the North West

[Tractor2018]

Ok.

Is there any depots got Blackpool North jobs now, that didn't before?

 

[muz379]

Ok.

Is there any depots got Blackpool North jobs now, that didn't before?

No new depots will be getting Blackpool north work in the timetable change on the 20th may as far as I am aware .

But all drivers from all depots who sign Blackpool north and went before it closed last November will need route learning trips to learn the new layout .

 

[childwallblues]

Liverpool drivers have got to re-learn Preston to Blackpool North. Also there is 323 type training and the route from Manchester Airport to Crewe

 

[M60lad]

Not to sure what happened last night but got to Blackpool North for about 18:00 only to find no trains were running and instead extra (Direct) bues were running instead to Preston both 18:11 to York and 18:37 to Manchester Airport were cancelled from Blackpool for some reason.

Luckily despite Blackpool Traffic on Seasiders Way I managed to catch up with what should have been 18:37 from Blackpool North at Preston (2x156)

 

[Red Devil]

Liverpool drivers have got to re-learn Preston to Blackpool North. Also there is 323 type training and the route from Manchester Airport to Crewe

Manchester airport/Crewe is a 3 week exercise and at the moment not a single driver has been sent road learning. Can't release anyone to do it. Be changing at Oxford rd with Piccadilly crews more than likely

 

[Red Devil]

Liverpool drivers have got to re-learn Preston to Blackpool North. Also there is 323 type training and the route from Manchester Airport to Crewe

Forgot to add. No drivers have started learning Blackpool yet either and apart from the instructors 5 drivers sign 323 s and none sign Crewe via winsford for ECS work that starts on 20th.
So much for" intensive driver training!"

 

[Tractor2018]

Thanks Muz, Red and blues.

 

[northernchris]

Forgot to add. No drivers have started learning Blackpool yet either and apart from the instructors 5 drivers sign 323 s and none sign Crewe via winsford for ECS work that starts on 20th.
So much for" intensive driver training!"

This is why it would have made sense to delay reopening the Blackpool line and redeploy the drivers to route/traction training so that once the new timetables are live there are sufficient crew trained to run the services. At least Piccadilly should have a bit of a surplus in crew from the 20th as they should have enough drivers available for what was initially planned to run so as mentioned earlier could pick up some of the work Liverpool drivers haven't had chance to be trained on

It's obvious the lack of RDW is having an impact on services, but so far only Liverpool, Blackpool and Wigan seem to be affected with just about all depots in area East still being able to deliver the timetable. Is this because of the different T&Cs or just because they aren't under compliment? It must be difficult to plan recruitment given the timeframe between a driver handing in their notice and their replacement being sourced and trained so it's no wonder there's sometimes a period where some depots are short

 

[Tractor2018]

It must be difficult to plan recruitment given the timeframe between a driver handing in their notice and their replacement being sourced and trained so it's no wonder there's sometimes a period where some depots are short

There is potentially a gap between the driver leaving and being replaced, but it's not as bad as first appearances. Most drivers need to give 6 months notice. So if you can replace with a passed driver it's happy days. If it's a trainee there will be a gap. And to be honest, you don't get many handing in their notice anyway.

 

[Red Devil]

There is potentially a gap between the driver leaving and being replaced, but it's not as bad as first appearances. Most drivers need to give 6 months notice. So if you can replace with a passed driver it's happy days. If it's a trainee there will be a gap. And to be honest, you don't get many handing in their notice anyway.

Oh yes but you do!

 

[Tractor2018]

Oh yes but you do!

OK.

To move for better jobs with mainline TOCs? In my experience, when the likes of Virgin and XC take on it tends to be a couple of jobs - and not really enough to cause a problem for TOCs further down the food chain, where the drivers are coming from.

If there's loads of drivers just handing in their notice for jobs outside the industry, that's something I've never witnessed.

But that's my experience, maybe it's different at your location.

 

[yorksrob]

I see that the Atherton line is closed yet again tomorrow. One wonders what benefits (if any) Atherton line passengers will gain from this extremely lengthy round of closures.

 

[Mathew S]

I see that the Atherton line is closed yet again tomorrow. One wonders what benefits (if any) Atherton line passengers will gain from this extremely lengthy round of closures.

3tph all day from 20th May, with 4tph coming soon. Increase in Sunday services (not many years ago there was no Sunday service at all). Earlier and later services than now on weekdays.

 

[yorksrob]

3tph all day from 20th May, with 4tph coming soon. Increase in Sunday services (not many years ago there was no Sunday service at all). Earlier and later services than now on weekdays.

These aren't actually being facilitated by the route closure though.

 

[Red Devil]

OK.

To move for better jobs with mainline TOCs? In my experience, when the likes of Virgin and XC take on it tends to be a couple of jobs - and not really enough to cause a problem for TOCs further down the food chain, where the drivers are coming from.

If there's loads of drivers just handing in their notice for jobs outside the industry, that's something I've never witnessed.

But that's my experience, maybe it's different at your location.

Well there are retirements,of which there have been plenty lately.
Vic have seen departures in the high teens of late. Wigan probably about 7 and Liverpool 9,with more to come. This in the space of 12 months.

 

[Tractor2018]

Well there are retirements,of which there have been plenty lately.
Vic have seen departures in the high teens of late. Wigan probably about 7 and Liverpool 9,with more to come. This in the space of 12 months.

Oh yeah, of course, retirements. When Chris said notice I just thought he meant leaving and moving on rather than retiring.

Crikey! That IS a lot of people hanging up their engine key.

The retirement element of it is only going to escalate too, if reports are to be believed.

 

[Mathew S]

These aren't actually being facilitated by the route closure though.

Not directly, but they are by the freeing up of DMUs which will happen once the electrification is completed.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

In the past 7 days, 33% of Windermere trains have been cancelled. Worst day Thursday with 20 out of 34 services cancelled. Best day Saturday with just 1 cancellation out of 16.

 

[td97]

Well there are retirements,of which there have been plenty lately.

Surely this could have been foreseen and drivers recruited in anticipation?

 

[Chester1]

Not directly, but they are by the freeing up of DMUs which will happen once the electrification is completed.

The closures of the Atherton line have been much more than necessary to wire to Salford Crescent. It might help work on the rest of the line but it can't be necessary to close it everytime the line from Salford Crescent to Preston is closed because its about 700m of shared track if Atherton services terminated at Oxford Road, which could be done with timetable modifications on Saturdays and Sundays. Northern has probably saved money from running bus replacements and EMUs via Chat Moss rather than use DMUs on bulked up services via the Atherton Line.

 

[muz379]

To move for better jobs with mainline TOCs? In my experience, when the likes of Virgin and XC take on it tends to be a couple of jobs - and not really enough to cause a problem for TOCs further down the food chain, where the drivers are coming from.

Indeed virgin and XC rarely take on that many . But even if its 1 or 2 that is just added to those that leave for freight , tpe and retire .

The other thing that is worth considering as well is if a driver with a full route card leaves for either of the various reasons discussed they are replaced by someone who has just passed out with a couple of routes on their card , the newly passed out replacement is not really a like for like replacement .

 

[Red Devil]

Oh yeah, of course, retirements. When Chris said notice I just thought he meant leaving and moving on rather than retiring.

Crikey! That IS a lot of people hanging up their engine key.

The retirement element of it is only going to escalate too, if reports are to be believed.

Not all retirement,a mixture of those and leaving for freight and TOC's.
A few more to leave from my depot this month.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the past 7 days, 33% of Windermere trains have been cancelled. Worst day Thursday with 20 out of 34 services cancelled. Best day Saturday with just 1 cancellation out of 16.

Time for an emergency (reduced frequency, longer trains) timetable and some selective bustitution? At least people can plan then.

 

[Eccles1983]

The closures of the Atherton line have been much more than necessary to wire to Salford Crescent. It might help work on the rest of the line but it can't be necessary to close it everytime the line from Salford Crescent to Preston is closed because its about 700m of shared track if Atherton services terminated at Oxford Road, which could be done with timetable modifications on Saturdays and Sundays. Northern has probably saved money from running bus replacements and EMUs via Chat Moss rather than use DMUs on bulked up services via the Atherton Line.

This is where enthusiasts or spotters fall down. They think its really easy to just make up services without thought of those who have to deliver them.

The amount of drivers that sign oxford road, and then the atherton line is not a very large amount.

Most drivers at vic sign to wigan via atherton and very few from pic sign it.

Now to sign Oxford road from Salford Crescent you are stuck because not every driver at Vic does, only the ones who then sign through to the Airport.

So even with a full complement of drivers you are causing a diagram nightmare in effect. Its much easier to close it complete. Also the wires run around the corner from Crescent to the Atherton line just beyond the sidings. So a blind bend with potential pway men at risk.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Time for an emergency (reduced frequency, longer trains) timetable and some selective bustitution? At least people can plan then.

The convoluted service / crew pattern does not help - trains and crew shuttling from Barrow / Preston / Lancaster to do a couple of round trips Oxenholme to Windermere then shuttle back to Lancaster etc.

As the branch is potentially self-contained, it would be simpler to send up a train in the morning to spend all day on the branch. The driver and guard do as many hours as are allowed (4 or 5?), have a meal beak, then do another 4 or 5 hours. The meal break gap can be left 'unoperated' or an RRB used (Stagecoach have spare buses in Kendal daytimes and there are private operators with school contract buses / coaches available day-time. After 8/9/10 hours, send up a new crew by taxi, swap over and bring the first crew back. The second crew bring the train home at night. That way something like 16 to 20 hours can be covered with two one-hour gaps / RRB's.

I don't propose this as a long-term solution, as the through journeys south of Oxenholme are useful, but as an emergency timetable it seems an easy win - effective use of limited resources.

 

[Red Devil]

The convoluted service / crew pattern does not help - trains and crew shuttling from Barrow / Preston / Lancaster to do a couple of round trips Oxenholme to Windermere then shuttle back to Lancaster etc.

As the branch is potentially self-contained, it would be simpler to send up a train in the morning to spend all day on the branch. The driver and guard do as many hours as are allowed (4 or 5?), have a meal beak, then do another 4 or 5 hours. The meal break gap can be left 'unoperated' or an RRB used (Stagecoach have spare buses in Kendal daytimes and there are private operators with school contract buses / coaches available day-time. After 8/9/10 hours, send up a new crew by taxi, swap over and bring the first crew back. The second crew bring the train home at night. That way something like 16 to 20 hours can be covered with two one-hour gaps / RRB's.

I don't propose this as a long-term solution, as the through journeys south of Oxenholme are useful, but as an emergency timetable it seems an easy win - effective use of limited resources.

Only one problem with that. There's no drivers to do it.

 

[Tractor2018]

In the past 7 days, 33% of Windermere trains have been cancelled. Worst day Thursday with 20 out of 34 services cancelled. Best day Saturday with just 1 cancellation out of 16.

You might find things improving a little, due to an agreement, from what I gather. Not resolved, but an improvement.

Surely this could have been foreseen and drivers recruited in anticipation?

Not necessarily. People's circumstances can change at the drop of a hat, as I'm sure you're aware. And once somebody says they're retiring, you can't advertise for a replacement, get them trained and passed out in the time before the retiring driver goes. You could argue people's age is a good indicator of when they'll retire, but not accurately enough to tailor training around.

those that leave for freight

Not all retirement,a mixture of those and leaving for freight and TOC's.
A few more to leave from my depot this month.

People are still leaving for freight?!?

The other thing that is worth considering as well is if a driver with a full route card leaves for either of the various reasons discussed they are replaced by someone who has just passed out with a couple of routes on their card , the newly passed out replacement is not really a like for like replacement .

Of course.

 

[Robertj21a]

Does nobody ever join from freight, or other TOCs ?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Only one problem with that. There's no drivers to do it.

Clearly there are some drivers available as some services are operating. But, whilst they are operating in service (or on STP ECS moves) between Preston and Oxenholme they could be operating the branch shuttle. If every minute counts due to a shortage of resources, using those resources on routes where there is a regular alternative service is simply wasteful.

After a six hour gap last Wednesday the comment was "what's that" when a train managed to arrive. I was expecting a RRB to Oxenholme, a missed connection, a free taxi home from Crewe due to missing the last train and some compo vouchers, but everything ran smoothly! I must be blessed.

 

[driver_m]

Does nobody ever join from freight, or other TOCs ?

Who, Northern? I'd have thought only DB or FL drivers would do such a move. Go and Google the pay scales for the varying companies. That will give you a good idea of the flows from F/TOC to TOC.