Northern's Problems in the North West

[Bovverboy]

In the past 7 days, 33% of Windermere trains have been cancelled. Worst day Thursday with 20 out of 34 services cancelled. Best day Saturday with just 1 cancellation out of 16.

In respect of Thursday you were counting single journeys, so (according to RTT) cancellations on Saturday constituted 2 out of 30 scheduled single train journeys. Two late journeys on Sats are long-term RRB, so I've taken those out of the count.

 

[Chester1]

This is where enthusiasts or spotters fall down. They think its really easy to just make up services without thought of those who have to deliver them.

The amount of drivers that sign oxford road, and then the atherton line is not a very large amount.

Most drivers at vic sign to wigan via atherton and very few from pic sign it.

Now to sign Oxford road from Salford Crescent you are stuck because not every driver at Vic does, only the ones who then sign through to the Airport.

So even with a full complement of drivers you are causing a diagram nightmare in effect. Its much easier to close it complete. Also the wires run around the corner from Crescent to the Atherton line just beyond the sidings. So a blind bend with potential pway men at risk.

Am I guessing wrong or will there have been 100 days+ of closures if the line is electrified by the autumn? How much would it have cost to train extra drivers to sign the route? Quite a few sizable settlements have lost their rail services at weekends to save time and hassle.

 

[Bovverboy]

The closures of the Atherton line have been much more than necessary to wire to Salford Crescent. It might help work on the rest of the line but it can't be necessary to close it everytime the line from Salford Crescent to Preston is closed because its about 700m of shared track if Atherton services terminated at Oxford Road, which could be done with timetable modifications on Saturdays and Sundays. Northern has probably saved money from running bus replacements and EMUs via Chat Moss rather than use DMUs on bulked up services via the Atherton Line.

Northern hasn't been running EMUs over the Chat Moss line, other than on those services which have been electric since 2015. When necessary (i.e. weekends or Sundays only, recently) the Southport services have been diverted over Chat Moss but remained DMU-operated. The Airport to Blackpool service at the moment remains DMU-operated (and is, of course, diverted via Chat Moss when the Bolton line is closed), but is scheduled to go over to 319s from the start of the new timetable.

 

[Eccles1983]

Am I guessing wrong or will there have been 100 days+ of closures if the line is electrified by the autumn? How much would it have cost to train extra drivers to sign the route? Quite a few sizable settlements have lost their rail services at weekends to save time and hassle.

Lots.

Firstly you need agreements from depots to cross cover work.

Secondly, the company is down thousands of training days already trying to run a train plan in the manchester area. To sign oxford road to crescent is only a few trips, but then what do you do with the train in the busiest junction in the Northwest? Carrying it on to Piccadilly means at least 2 days walking around the station learning it, followed by endless possible shunts and trips over the route. Then you'd need to road learn guide bridge/ashburys for the service to make any sense to continue to Blackburn/Stalybridge as that is the usual pattern.

Then there is pathing costs, and actual pathing berths in again the most congested area in the Northwest.

Thirdly and most importantly even if you overcome the two problems above, its not Northerns railway. It belongs to Network Rail, who have decided for ease and safety to close the line.

Or the crayons can be put away, and the logical outcome which has happened is bustitution.

 

[PHILIPE]

According to Northern Journey Check all platforms at Manchester Victoria occupied by trains waiting "by delayed train crews".

 

[158756]

Tim Farron demands Northern be stripped of the franchise. North West Tonight says carriages are going to be cut at the timetable change as well.

 

[pemma]

North West Tonight says carriages are going to be cut at the timetable change as well.

Northern are set to put 2 car 142s on some services currently worked by 4 car Sprinters, especially on Saturdays and at afternoon school finishing times.

 

[Robertj21a]

Tim Farron demands Northern be stripped of the franchise. North West Tonight says carriages are going to be cut at the timetable change as well.

Ooh, being savaged by Tim Farron - that will create panic across the area......

 

[The_Engineer]

Ooh, being savaged by Tim Farron - that will create panic across the area......

At least he spoke up..... I have not heard from other North West MPs concerning the savage level of cancellations in recent week.

 

[pemma]

At least he spoke up..... I have not heard from other North West MPs concerning the savage level of cancellations in recent week.

Tim Farron is one of the most vocal MPs in the North West. His seat was a Conservative safe seat which he originally managed to win by a very small margin. Even at the last election when the media had their knives out for him and the Conservative candidate got more votes than the Conservative candidates in 1997, 2001 and 2005 (when they won the seat), Farron still managed to retain his seat with a bigger majority than he first won it with.

 

[gazzaa2]

Tim Farron demands Northern be stripped of the franchise. North West Tonight says carriages are going to be cut at the timetable change as well.

The service is just appalling at the moment. My morning commuter train (06:03 Warr Cen to Lime St) hasn't run for two weeks now.

 

[Loop & Link]

The service is just appalling at the moment. My morning commuter train (06:03 Warr Cen to Lime St) hasn't run for two weeks now.

Apart from today/yesterday and Saturday

 

[northernchris]

Tim Farron demands Northern be stripped of the franchise. North West Tonight says carriages are going to be cut at the timetable change as well.

Arriva could be stripped of the franchise but then what? It won't stop the strikes, the shortforming, the infrastructure delays or the unit shortages. The only thing it may resolve is the RDW situation

 

[superkev]

With yesterday's major problems at Man Vic it's difficult to see how a truck crashing the barriers at Smifhy Bridge some 20 miles away could cause such disruption.
see
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...2476#ICID=ios_MENNewsApp_AppShare_Click_Other

 

[B&I]

At least he spoke up..... I have not heard from other North West MPs concerning the savage level of cancellations in recent week.

They are unlikely to know, as shuttling to and from Westminster may not involve use of Northern services. This is why a local body with some form of control over local services might be handy, and why no effective one is likely to be set up

 

[Dr Hoo]

They are unlikely to know, as shuttling to and from Westminster may not involve use of Northern services. This is why a local body with some form of control over local services might be handy, and why no effective one is likely to be set up

So what is Transport for the North supposed to be? From the various announcements I thought that it was going to have a major role in franchise management, investment, planning, etc. across Northern and Transpennine.

 

[Darandio]

Apart from today/yesterday and Saturday

Haha, nobody wants facts though surely? Although it was cancelled again today though.

 

[jonesy3001]

So what is Transport for the North supposed to be? From the various announcements I thought that it was going to have a major role in franchise management, investment, planning, etc. across Northern and Transpennine.

i think transport for the north are all talk no action, i wont believe anything they say until it happens.

 

[Bovverboy]

They are unlikely to know, as shuttling to and from Westminster may not involve use of Northern services. This is why a local body with some form of control over local services might be handy, and why no effective one is likely to be set up

Well when I lived in Burnley my local MP certainly used Northern on the first leg of his journey to work - I sat next to him in a taxi one day when the Blackpool South stopper was missing.

 

[pemma]

Well when I lived in Burnley my local MP certainly used Northern on the first leg of his journey to work - I sat next to him in a taxi one day when the Blackpool South stopper was missing.

Whether your MP uses the train depends who your MP is and what their engagements are. It was once reported when there was disrupted passengers on a service between Barrow and Preston that John Woodcock was one of the people who tried to de-escalate the situation, while one day when TPE nabbed a 185 off North TPE to cover for 350/4 failures Hilary Benn was reportedly on one of the short-formed services. However, someone like George Osborne was more likely to experience the problem with over-provision of taxis at Wilmslow station (where a direct service to London can be caught) than a problem occurring on the Mid-Cheshire or Crewe to Manchester locals.

 

[Heartland]

The current state of services from Blackpool North appears to remain chaotic, with buses replacements a common occurrence.

Is it possible to find an explanation or at least a list of reasons why this is happening on the line to Preston?

Staff shortages, route learning, availability of stock and which depots now provide drivers/ senior conductors for the route all appear to be a mix, that probably also includes elements of incomplete infrastructure, no doubt.

 

[B&I]

So what is Transport for the North supposed to be?

A talking shop, in the absence of statutory powers ?

 

[Starmill]

A talking shop, in the absence of statutory powers ?

Exactly. And a budget...

 

[Dr Hoo]

Exactly. And a budget...

Sorry, I am just going off the TfN website. For example:

"Strategic Rail, which became a part of Transport for the North in April 2018, was formerly known as Rail North.

We have secured and are leading two transformational and investment-led rail franchises for the North, marking the start of increased local investment and greater local control. Bringing together local transport authorities across the whole of the North, we are also responsible for shaping the strategic and economic development of the network for rail users..."

Recognising that 'Rome wasn't built in a day' and we have had a couple of holiday weekends since TfN gained its powers last month am I alone in expecting Chairman (John Cridland), Chief Executive (Barry White), Northern Powerhouse Rail Director (Tim Wood) and Rail North Ltd Director (David Hoggarth) to start speaking out on behalf of passengers and pressing the franchises and Network Rail about what is going on?

 

[Starmill]

The Government are not obliged to actually do what Rail North say. They are merely consulted on policy. It was widely expected that this would change, and that Rail North and now their successor would have actual control over a budget and the authority to spend it themselves, but this did not happen.

None of that is inconsistent with the (effectively meaningless) marketing-speak that you have highlighted above, regarding them 'leading' things. That doesn't actually mean anything in reality.

 

[B&I]

Sorry, I am just going off the TfN website. For example:

"Strategic Rail, which became a part of Transport for the North in April 2018, was formerly known as Rail North.

We have secured and are leading two transformational and investment-led rail franchises for the North, marking the start of increased local investment and greater local control. Bringing together local transport authorities across the whole of the North, we are also responsible for shaping the strategic and economic development of the network for rail users..."

Recognising that 'Rome wasn't built in a day' and we have had a couple of holiday weekends since TfN gained its powers last month am I alone in expecting Chairman (John Cridland), Chief Executive (Barry White), Northern Powerhouse Rail Director (Tim Wood) and Rail North Ltd Director (David Hoggarth) to start speaking out on behalf of passengers and pressing the franchises and Network Rail about what is going on?

Ah, irony. Now i see

 

[pemma]

Seems the problem is spreading further south. The Buxton line has all services suspended for the next 3 hours or so due to crew shortages.

 

[Red Devil]

Only a RDW agreement will solve this problem. Until one is in place this will be the status quo for the foreseeable future,I'm afraid.

 

[Robertj21a]

Sorry, I am just going off the TfN website. For example:

"Strategic Rail, which became a part of Transport for the North in April 2018, was formerly known as Rail North.

We have secured and are leading two transformational and investment-led rail franchises for the North, marking the start of increased local investment and greater local control. Bringing together local transport authorities across the whole of the North, we are also responsible for shaping the strategic and economic development of the network for rail users..."

Recognising that 'Rome wasn't built in a day' and we have had a couple of holiday weekends since TfN gained its powers last month am I alone in expecting Chairman (John Cridland), Chief Executive (Barry White), Northern Powerhouse Rail Director (Tim Wood) and Rail North Ltd Director (David Hoggarth) to start speaking out on behalf of passengers and pressing the franchises and Network Rail about what is going on?

Sounds like meaningless waffle prepared by a media 'expert'.........

 

[pemma]

14:59 Chester to Manchester cancelled today. I feel sorry for the guard who gets the 15:59, especially if the 15:59 isn't formed of 4 carriages as it will almost certainly leave passengers behind if it's a 2 car 142!