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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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Downthelane

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Is there any reason given for this?

This can't be caused by drivers not signing the Canal Tunnel.

This shocking situation has to be caused by driving not being available for unplanned reasons?

Unofficial strike action?
 
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MML

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the internal view from the front line is that it’s a complete shambles. Many of the new GTR depots haven’t even been built yet, I’ve heard stories of portacabins being hastily rented + there’s a shortage of instructors hence a huge backlog of drivers.
Is the new 2 storey 'executive' Portacabin adjacent to Luton station going to be the new driver 'depot'. I was only add admiring it last week. Looks better than Luton station.
When is that tired, worn and filthy station going to be properly renovated. It's a disgrace.
 

Ianno87

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And for added 'oh my god why didn't we think of that?!' value to stop a conflicting move at North Kent East, run the half-hourly Rainham down via Denmark Hill and Longfield?!

The idea of running semi-fast Thameslink services via the Catford loop was thought of and discounted. Not very compatible with a 4tph stopping service and off-peak freight. Plus whole new flat junction conflicts at Cambria, Crofton Road, Nunhead, Ravensbourne and Shortlands.
 

MrCub

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Is the new 2 storey 'executive' Portacabin adjacent to Luton station going to be the new driver 'depot'. I was only add admiring it last week. Looks better than Luton station.
When is that tired, worn and filthy station going to be properly renovated. It's a disgrace.

I thought that WAS the new station.

Anyway, more chaos this morning. Had a friend text me. Typically they'd have no problems getting a seat from Luton in the morning peak; today they've had the choice of squishing onto an already packed service, or waiting on the platform. This really isn't working.
 

danthekyle

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it's really there to provide connectivity from the London area stations South of St Albans to LBG and to provide longer trains on the Dartford via Greenwich route.

It certainly doesn't provide longer trains between Dartford and Greenwich - all trains are 8 car, often replacing 10 car SE trains. Many people left on platforms unable to board at Greenwich and Deptford yesterday.
 

frediculous

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Yesterday as my normal Southeastern service no longer stops at Denmark Hill, I now change at Crofton Park. No space (no-one could get on!) on the first Thameslink and barely any on the second. Let's hope thay doesntd happen again today.
Routing the Rainham Thameslink through Denmark Hill via Lewisham would be a massive improvement, to me at least.

Edit: Thameslink service left behind passengers at Crofton Park, Nunhead, Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill today. So much for capacity improvements!
 
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Failed Unit

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Is there any reason given for this?

This can't be caused by drivers not signing the Canal Tunnel.

This shocking situation has to be caused by driving not being available for unplanned reasons?

Unofficial strike action?

They are just saying an operating incident. Which means no driver I guess. Many on here know more than me but can they ensure they are the first ones to run over the Baldocks / WGC - Kings Cross. It seems wrong that stations are left with no service at all over the peaks when cancelling the shorts would maybe cause overcrowding but at least people from Foxton can get to work.
 

whoosh

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Is there any reason given for this?

This can't be caused by drivers not signing the Canal Tunnel.

This shocking situation has to be caused by driving not being available for unplanned reasons?

Unofficial strike action?


Well, I can tell you the drivers are working lots of overtime, so it definitely isn't unofficial strike action.
 

NorthKent1989

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Well, like a number of the new diagrams this one isn't actually there to get you from Rainham to Luton, it's really there to provide connectivity from the London area stations South of St Albans to LBG and to provide longer trains on the Dartford via Greenwich route. Rainham is just a way of mopping up the SE service East of Dartford operationally. This new link has been much debated over the past 18 months, as it obviously adds a new conflict on the LBG approach (the Thameslink project was designed to remove them at that location), and it has required slowing down the remaining SE services via Greenwich a little to fit it in. A potential routing via DMK and Blackheath has also been on the table for a little time but, amazingly, this route provokes slightly fewer conflicts, ie. Lewisham and Loughborough Jnc, (and is actually quite fast from Dartford - Deptford to the central core) so it's probably going to be staying for some time yet. Plus when people at these stations discover that it provides a quite good connection to Luton for flights all over Europe -- miles better than anything before the timetable change -- it will naturally develop its own fan following!

I think your not taking Crossrail into account, it'll parallel the line for a short bit between Abbey Wood & Woolwich but I can see it drawing passengers away from even the Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines it, they're rejigging bus routes in those areas as we speak to reach Abbey Wood and Woolwich Crossrail, Heathrow is Britains biggest airport an the Heathrow services will start at Abbey Wood as well as Reading Services, i seriously doubt people even in Greenwich will want to travel on Thameslink for over an hour to Luton when all they have to do is change at Farringdon and zoom to Heathrow, as for fewer conflicts we'll why did the Greenwich lose CX, because of the same conflicts being made now, the effect of this won't be immediately noticed but one delay could have a knock on effect on the whole network.

How is this better than what we had before? For us beyond Dartford it's a nightmare, before the 20th we had 2tph semi fast trains calling only at major interchange points, sure it wasn't the fastest but it's miles better than what we got now, crawling and calling at the minor stations, I can understand the need to call at stations on the Greenwich line since they would be downgraded to 4tph (though usage at Maze Hill and Westcombe Park have fallen) but they should have made this semi fast between Charlton and Gravesend at the very least

Whose to say in a few years when the Rainham becomes an unwanted millstone around the bosses necks they won't take this service away? The likelihood is probable especially once Crossrail is fully up and running they could justify withdrawing Thameslink from this neck of the woods citing Crossrail and the fact that it's likely going to extend to Gravesend in a few years time, I find it highly unlikely the rail bosses will allow this area to have both Crossrail AND Thameslink, especially once Windmill Junction is able to handle the extra services, if they needed to reach Gillingham then the best route would have been to do so via Denmark Hill & Catford, replacing the current Gillingham stoppers on the Bromley line.
 

A0wen

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This morning they have cancelled the 0628, 0658 and 0728 services from Cambridge to London.

Stopping a fast train at Letchworth and that massive stop of Knebworth.

So it is impossible to get a peak service today from the shacks between Cambridge and Royston, you can’t get to work if you work at Welwyn GC or Hatfield (and travel in from the north). If you use Finsbury Park from many stations south of Stevenage forget it.

Cancellations are bad enough but removal of the entire peak service?

Re the bit in bold - but that isn't true is it? Because of the stations south of Stevenage only two of them (Knebworth & Welwyn North) don't have alternative (i.e the Moorgate services) which also serve FPK. And with the Moorgate services now being 4 tph and 6 cars at that, there would have been plenty of seats from those at WGC, Hatfield etc albeit on a slightly slower journey.

I guess that's why they dropped in the Knebworth stop on a fast service - that and Knebworth has platforms on the fast lines so time penalty wise it's minimal.
 

TheDavibob

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If I'm reading everything right, today seems to actually have gone quite well. Other than the legitimate earlier gripe about the canning of the Cambridgeshire village stoppers (which seem to have completely vanished from RTT) and the continued aggressive cancellation of the Cambridge-Brighton route (running at about 50%), things seem to have pretty much been on time.

How's it been on the ground? And how crowded has a nearly-successful peak timetable ended up being?

On the Brighton-Cambridge note, the issue would appear to be, to my untrained eye, that the first workings of the day just never left Brighton. Whilst the BML can cope (?) without these trains, it does somewhat screw over those used to the GN semifast. Is this a driver issue or a stock issue, or some combination of the two?
 

bramling

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Re the bit in bold - but that isn't true is it? Because of the stations south of Stevenage only two of them (Knebworth & Welwyn North) don't have alternative (i.e the Moorgate services) which also serve FPK. And with the Moorgate services now being 4 tph and 6 cars at that, there would have been plenty of seats from those at WGC, Hatfield etc albeit on a slightly slower journey.

I guess that's why they dropped in the Knebworth stop on a fast service - that and Knebworth has platforms on the fast lines so time penalty wise it's minimal.

The 313s can be pretty unpleasant when crush loaded. I suspect this is why many from welwyn and Hatfield try to avoid them as far as possible.

I know someone who moved to Stevenage and travels to Moorgate. He opted for the direct service via Hertford on day one, and by the end of the journey declared “never again”. He now changes at Finsbury Park.
 

bramling

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If I'm reading everything right, today seems to actually have gone quite well. Other than the legitimate earlier gripe about the canning of the Cambridgeshire village stoppers (which seem to have completely vanished from RTT) and the continued aggressive cancellation of the Cambridge-Brighton route (running at about 50%), things seem to have pretty much been on time.

How's it been on the ground? And how crowded has a nearly-successful peak timetable ended up being?

On the Brighton-Cambridge note, the issue would appear to be, to my untrained eye, that the first workings of the day just never left Brighton. Whilst the BML can cope (?) without these trains, it does somewhat screw over those used to the GN semifast. Is this a driver issue or a stock issue, or some combination of the two?

This is the problem - the moment something is late or missing from Thameslink massive gaps arise to certain GN destinations.

If masses of late running (despite many missing trains) is a success, then you have rather low expectations!
 

DaveN

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Any feedback from day one as to how the BedPan side of TL fared, covering for the loss of EMT at Bedford and Luton?

The Harpenden mob worked themselves up into a lather over the last few weeks, but seem to have been quiet on social media today. Did that aspect of the new timetable work well?

I'm only speaking for the times that impacted my daughter but...

The 0634 from Bedford was standing room only at Flitwick presumably because the Bedford ex EMT 06:30 people didn't realise that they are supposed to get the 06:22 and because this one is still 8 cars. This was then terminated at St Albans because there was no driver to East Grinstead. The driver was not pleased that he wasn't allowed to take his passengers to London. Even getting off at St Albans was difficult because of all the people. The next faster Flitwick train (07:13) was cancelled as was the slower (06:42) from Flitwick too.

Coming back the 18:26 and 18:47 from Blackfriars to Bedford were both cancelled so they made the 1844 Fast Bedford stop at all stations from St Albans to Bedford, so back to Flitwick at 19:42. This is 31 minutes later than the old 18:22 Flitwick fast would have been. Obviously not good for people who were used to get the EMT trains to Bedford either
 

jon0844

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Well, I can tell you the drivers are working lots of overtime, so it definitely isn't unofficial strike action.

I think it was just the Saturday and Sunday affected by drivers not doing rest day work, either because they were at one of the two parties for drivers, or for other reasons.
 

Failed Unit

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Re the bit in bold - but that isn't true is it? Because of the stations south of Stevenage only two of them (Knebworth & Welwyn North) don't have alternative (i.e the Moorgate services) which also serve FPK. And with the Moorgate services now being 4 tph and 6 cars at that, there would have been plenty of seats from those at WGC, Hatfield etc albeit on a slightly slower journey.

I guess that's why they dropped in the Knebworth stop on a fast service - that and Knebworth has platforms on the fast lines so time penalty wise it's minimal.

Fair point only 2 stations got nothing. The additional stops at Knebworth wouldn’t help as they were fast to London. However I understand they did stop the Baldock service at WGC to help out. So in the end it was just the Cambridgeshire villages totally shafted and longer journeys for others. The WGC starters or at least the 0802 was crush loaded by Potters Bar but I guess some will say that vindicates the class 700 build.

Now we are in the off peak. I understand things are much better. Even stuff getting through the core.
 

jon0844

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The 313s can be pretty unpleasant when crush loaded. I suspect this is why many from welwyn and Hatfield try to avoid them as far as possible.

I know someone who moved to Stevenage and travels to Moorgate. He opted for the direct service via Hertford on day one, and by the end of the journey declared “never again”. He now changes at Finsbury Park.

Yes they aren't great. The 717s will solve those issues and hopefully they'll start arriving and running in service in the next 3 or 4 months (I don't know how many will come each month, but they've said between now and December 2019). Plus if you get on at WGC or Hatfield you should at least be seated when it gets very cosy. With loads of people alighting at Finsbury Park, you'll still be able to get off. The problem at FPK now is the crowding issues getting to the tube. You could of course stay on to Highbury & Islington, but the trains will of course be very busy then.

As we get more and more houses and flats built (1500 flats at WGC planned, and more at other nearby stations) the trains MAY be able to move them more efficiently, but the interchanges will struggle.
 

Ianno87

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This is the problem - the moment something is late or missing from Thameslink massive gaps arise to certain GN destinations.

It works both ways... on the day of the 180 fire at Welwyn North last week, one of the few things running on time was the Brighton-Cambridge through core service, having been isolated from the disruption by being on the other side of London!

Anyway, not all that different to the old timetable; if a former King's Cross-Cambridge slow was cancelled in the old timetable, then that resulted in an equally large gap to the villages Royston-Cambridge, for example.
 

Bromley boy

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Is there any reason given for this?

This can't be caused by drivers not signing the Canal Tunnel.

This shocking situation has to be caused by driving not being available for unplanned reasons?

Unofficial strike action?

It’s not just the canal tunnels it’s trainee drivers who are not trained at all waiting months for an instructor, or experienced TL drivers who don’t sign vast swathes of the route they are meant to be driving being given insufficient time to learn it.

It is an absolute shower of sh*t the way it has all been handled, with years to plan for it.

But hey why miss an opportunity to stick the boot into the drivers themselves...
 

Bromley boy

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I think it was just the Saturday and Sunday affected by drivers not doing rest day work, either because they were at one of the two parties for drivers, or for other reasons.

Roster not being put out in time for planning to take place and consequent uncertainty over Sunday working (they have committed Sundays but Sundays are outside) was part of it, AIUI.
 

jon0844

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It works both ways... on the day of the 180 fire at Welwyn North last week, one of the few things running on time was the Brighton-Cambridge through core service, having been isolated from the disruption by being on the other side of London!

Anyway, not all that different to the old timetable; if a former King's Cross-Cambridge slow was cancelled in the old timetable, then that resulted in an equally large gap to the villages Royston-Cambridge, for example.

One problem for some stations is the lack of Peterborough services. By having all trains to/from Cambridge, any issue on the line means no trains unless they put stop orders on PBO services. At least before, those south of Hitchin could just wait for a service to/from Hitchin and continue relatively unscathed.
 

Failed Unit

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Yes they aren't great. The 717s will solve those issues and hopefully they'll start arriving and running in service in the next 3 or 4 months (I don't know how many will come each week, but they've said between now and December 2019). Plus if you get on at WGC or Hatfield you should at least be seated when it gets very cosy. With loads of people alighting at Finsbury Park, you'll still be able to get off. The problem at FPK now is the crowding issues getting to the tube. You could of course stay on to Highbury & Islington, but the trains will of course be very busy then.

As we get more and more houses and flats built (1500 flats at WGC planned, and more at other nearby stations) the trains MAY be able to move them more efficiently, but the interchanges will struggle.

Finsbury Park is a concern. Just hope they can maintain the cross platform connections where possible. I suspect people who’s trains can use either St Pancras or kings cross are now generally heading to Finsbury Park if on Piccadilly or Victoria lines. I used to always use KX for a seat. WGC is lucky in that respect. We only have a short period in the peak when our trains use both. Be interesting if people heading to Royston / Stevenage (other examples available) go to St Pancras first or stick with kings cross for the train on the platform.
 

jon0844

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Roster not being put out in time for planning to take place and consequent uncertainty over Sunday working (they have committed Sundays but Sundays are outside) was part of it, AIUI.

GTR isn't enforcing the 2 Sundays per quarter (give or take) requirement yet? I expect they'll need to at some point. I'm always hopeful that one day they can start to run 2tph at some stations that only have one, and that obviously means being sure you've got enough drivers available. It's great to have gone from 4 to 8 car, but one cancellation and a two hour gap is enough to still put a lot of people off. Last Sunday, there were cases of two cancellations giving a three hour gap!
 

Failed Unit

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GTR isn't enforcing the 2 Sundays per quarter (give or take) requirement yet? I expect they'll need to at some point. I'm always hopeful that one day they can start to run 2tph at some stations that only have one, and that obviously means being sure you've got enough drivers available. It's great to have gone from 4 to 8 car, but one cancellation and a two hour gap is enough to still put a lot of people off. Last Sunday, there were cases of two cancellations giving a three hour gap!
Must admit. I need to go to London on Sunday. Very little confidence that much will run. Hopefully they will at least keep half the Moorgate services. But needing to leave 1 hour earlier than I should because of this. If the fast is cancelled I get the Moorgate. But no certainty it won’t be cancelled as well.
 

Bromley boy

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GTR isn't enforcing the 2 Sundays per quarter (give or take) requirement yet? I expect they'll need to at some point. I'm always hopeful that one day they can start to run 2tph at some stations that only have one, and that obviously means being sure you've got enough drivers available. It's great to have gone from 4 to 8 car, but one cancellation and a two hour gap is enough to still put a lot of people off. Last Sunday, there were cases of two cancellations giving a three hour gap!

I believe it’s gone from 8 committed Sundays to 12, certainly for new entrants (of whom there are many).

Even that shouldn’t *in theory* make any difference as committed Sundays have to be either covered by mutual arrangement or worked (@Class2ldn) or similar could probably confirm.

Trainees not being trained up due to a lack of DIs and route knowledge for existing drivers is a big issue as some depots have been closed/moved and the routes driven by existing drivers have been altered in many cases.

I’m sure once the service is bedded in it will be excellent but it should never have been to allowed to commence in this state of unpreparedness.
 

jon0844

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Must admit. I need to go to London on Sunday. Very little confidence that much will run. Hopefully they will at least keep half the Moorgate services. But needing to leave 1 hour earlier than I should because of this. If the fast is cancelled I get the Moorgate. But no certainty it won’t be cancelled as well.

The GN inners have run pretty well. With most skipping stops (that in itself is very confusing for both staff and passengers) the journey times aren't as bad as they could have been. There is still the issue of rather odd timings, in that you have a train at 56 and 03, then a long (relatively speaking) gap until the next one. I am sure many expected for near-enough 15 minute service intervals.
 

Bromley boy

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It certainly doesn't provide longer trains between Dartford and Greenwich - all trains are 8 car, often replacing 10 car SE trains. Many people left on platforms unable to board at Greenwich and Deptford yesterday.

An 8 car 700 will hold a lot more passengers than an 8/10 car networker. The differential between an 8 car 700 and a 10 car 376 will be smaller of course...
 

SA_900

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NorthKent1989

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The idea of running semi-fast Thameslink services via the Catford loop was thought of and discounted. Not very compatible with a 4tph stopping service and off-peak freight. Plus whole new flat junction conflicts at Cambria, Crofton Road, Nunhead, Ravensbourne and Shortlands.

Then perphaps run it via Penge East? Was this ever discussed?

Some stations on that line could do with 6tph, Penge East is one of the busiest stations on the line and covers a large catchment area (as far afield as Forest Hill and Sydenham, who want a quicker run into Victoria rather than take the outer loop via Crystal Palace) the only conflict your going to get is at Herne Hill.
 

danthekyle

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An 8 car 700 will hold a lot more passengers than an 8/10 car networker. The differential between an 8 car 700 and a 10 car 376 will be smaller of course...

Indeed, the two trains I have used this week used to be 10 car 376s, meaning a capacity reduction of 120 people per train.

The capacity of an 8 car 700 is only 7 more passengers than a 10 car networker, with around 400 fewer seats.
 
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