First Group: General Discussion

[Cesarcollie]

Christ, there’s some tosh being spouted.

Pride isn’t the issue - it’s the massive P&L hit that comes from writing off assets.

Amazed that all the luminaries telling First how to do it have the time to comment whilst running their own highly successful businesses

Quite right. Not to mention the massive redundancy costs, which will also hit the P & L.....

 

[Cesarcollie]

Im unsure where you have heard that but often all the coaches and drivers available are out and about and they are still often having to contract work out to simpsons and peace coaches, which they still make profit on.

Ah..... The 'busy fool' syndrome......!!

 

[Jordan Adam]

The Fact the coach hire side is always subcontracting to local independents and the fleet has expanded in size in the last year shows there's not a lack of demand, certainly the Rail replacement contracts just now are serving them very well. I wouldn't regard the fleet as "life expired", only the people behind a vanity project such as Lothian buses would call a vehicle that's only 13 years old "life expired". Plenty of life in them. As l always say, it's not about the age of the vehicle but the quality of it. There's been lots of repaints recently and the coaches are all in good mechanical order. The B7Rs are in miles better condition than the almost identical models Stagecoach are scraping which have had a very hard life and were showing strain.

P.S. you should see the state of the Central and Bain's Coaches fleets!

 

[DMU180]

Ah..... The 'busy fool' syndrome......!!

Busy fools making very good money for it.

 

[GusB]

The Fact the coach hire side is always subcontracting to local independents and the fleet has expanded in size in the last year shows there's not a lack of demand, certainly the Rail replacement contracts just now are serving them very well. I wouldn't regard the fleet as "life expired", only the people behind a vanity project such as Lothian buses would call a vehicle that's only 13 years old "life expired". Plenty of life in them. As l always say, it's not about the age of the vehicle but the quality of it. There's been lots of repaints recently and the coaches are all in good mechanical order. The B7Rs are in miles better condition than the almost identical models Stagecoach are scraping which have had a very hard life and were showing strain.

P.S. you should see the state of the Central and Bain's Coaches fleets!

I have to admit that I'm quite surprised that First Aberdeen still have a coaching operation. It has been some time since I left the Granite City, but at that time they were still trading as Grampian Coaches, and I'm fairly sure the Mair's name was still on the go then (it was 2004 when I left - how time flies!)

 

[DMU180]

The Fact the coach hire side is always subcontracting to local independents and the fleet has expanded in size in the last year shows there's not a lack of demand, certainly the Rail replacement contracts just now are serving them very well. I wouldn't regard the fleet as "life expired", only the people behind a vanity project such as Lothian buses would call a vehicle that's only 13 years old "life expired". Plenty of life in them. As l always say, it's not about the age of the vehicle but the quality of it. There's been lots of repaints recently and the coaches are all in good mechanical order. The B7Rs are in miles better condition than the almost identical models Stagecoach are scraping which have had a very hard life and were showing strain.

P.S. you should see the state of the Central and Bain's Coaches fleets!

The coaches are completely filthy, Youd be surprised that they have roofs with the way they leak, they stink as the toilets aren’t cleaned out and watered, I feel sorry for the drivers as when they turn up for us they are embarassed more then anything. I would agree that an old bus doesnt make it a bad bus and if they were looked after they would be fine, but they arent looked after. I would also agree that mechanically they appear to be in good condition although some can be sluggish, but that isnt what customers are interested in. At least lothian buses outward image suggests they take pride in their fleet, which can go a long way.

I agree with you about Central, they make First Aberdeen look like Maynes of Buckie! No experience of bains although King Longs don’t give me much hope.

 

[DMU180]

Ah well - if the drivers say it, it must be true.

Maybe if people listened to what the drivers have to say things would be changed. They are the eyes and ears of the company so mocking them isnt going to get you very far.

 

[johnw]

I think the issue is that companies like Bristol and Cornwall have good MDs whilst others such as South Yorkshire not so.

Why for example did ToT and Giles F sign off that awful new livery, then more forward thinking mangers employ a better one?

 

[ddhecks]

I think the issue is that companies like Bristol and Cornwall have good MDs whilst others such as South Yorkshire not so.

Tell me what you know about the South Yorkshire MD? Quite the sweeping statement...

 

[Jordan Adam]

To be honest it was only normally 4 coaches First leased for the Summer period so it's not really that big of a loss, they still do some trips during summer with the Irizars. Although they may be reduced this year due to the rail replacement between Aberdeen and Dyce which goes through right in to August.

The coaches are completely filthy, Youd be surprised that they have roofs with the way they leak, they stink as the toilets aren’t cleaned out and watered, I feel sorry for the drivers as when they turn up for us they are embarassed more then anything. I would agree that an old bus doesnt make it a bad bus and if they were looked after they would be fine, but they arent looked after. I would also agree that mechanically they appear to be in good condition although some can be sluggish, but that isnt what customers are interested in. At least lothian buses outward image suggests they take pride in their fleet, which can go a long way.

I agree with you about Central, they make First Aberdeen look like Maynes of Buckie! No experience of bains although King Longs don’t give me much hope.

As someone who used to use the coaches twice a week until recently i can't say i ever noticed such issues other than 20205 and 20207 which used to reek of damp but they're both long gone, the B12Ms they had until last year were sluggish at times though.

Central are cowboys, dodgy management and dodgy maintenance, they've also put a Car/Taxi on a bus service run a few times. Bain's are not quite as bad in terms of maintenance but the appearance of their fleet is pretty poor and lately it seems the guy who runs the company is loosing interest as the fleet is deteriorating more. Although the drivers at Bain's are all fantastic so props to them and the fact they had a Neoplan Skyliner in used till just past it's 32nd Birthday! I do often question though, how do Bain's make any money, the only service runs they have are council funded, they don't have a modern coach fleet and they don't do any school runs other than the Hazlehead Academy to Airyhall run but that's an actual service (Route 52) run rather than a closed contract.

Maynes, Allan & Black and Simpsons easily have the best fleets locally. That includes the pair of elderly Setra's that Allan & Black have which are fantastic motors!

Why for example did ToT and Giles F sign off that awful new livery, then more forward thinking mangers employ a better one?

Awful New livery? I assume you mean the Olympia livery. If so then i think it's quite a good livery. There seems to be a real hate for the Olympia livery due to it using Purples and pinks which people view as "Girly". It's 2018 not 1958! It should be noted though that liking and disliking a livery is totally subjective.

I have to admit that I'm quite surprised that First Aberdeen still have a coaching operation. It has been some time since I left the Granite City, but at that time they were still trading as Grampian Coaches, and I'm fairly sure the Mair's name was still on the go then (it was 2004 when I left - how time flies!)

I'm not sure exactly but i think the Mair's name went out of use in 2008 when the "Grampian Coaches" name was replaced with the more appropriate "First Aberdeen Coach Hire". Certainly the Summer 2008 edition of the "First To Know" booklet (See below) mentions the rename, although no mention of Mair's!

 

[tbtc]

Awful New livery? I assume you mean the Olympia livery. If so then i think it's quite a good livery. There seems to be a real hate for the Olympia livery due to it using Purples and pinks which people view as "Girly". It's 2018 not 1958! It should be noted though that liking and disliking a livery is totally subjective

I've no problem with pink and purple. My personal subjective dislike for the livery is along the following lines...

• The colours looks washed out. The original Barbie had vivid pink and a deep blue, but the "Olympia" colours look badly faded, so that even a brand new bus looks like it's due a repaint. Other bus companies aren't afraid of bright colours.
• It also means buses look dirty fairly quickly, given all of the light panels (that kind of grubby off-white isn't suited to buses)
• The "flying f" looks contrived. Even as a bus enthusiast, it took several looks until I twigged that the diagonal lines were meant to represent the "f" of the logo - and advertising on the side of the bus means it's even harder to spot. It feels like the diagonal lines are not random enough to be abstract but are far too complicated to look simple.
• The lightening effect at the back of a double decker bus looks good, with the "w" of the Wrightbus logo forming the centrepiece, but this is a livery that needs to work across various vehicle types/ manufacturers/ shapes. I wish the same attention to detail had been paid elsewhere.
• The complicated nature of the livery mean panels are hard to replace when a bus has an accident - keeping a simple colour along the bottom would avoid that.
• Unlike the original "Barbie", it was randomly painted on everything in the early days. Barbie had rules - it was only for the newest buses, the low floor buses, the buses with modern engines. If you saw a Barbie bus coming, you knew you were getting one of the better ones in the fleet. Similarly, Stagecoach kept older buses in the "stripes" livery, when they moved to their "beachball" scheme. If South Yorkshire is anything to go by, Olympia had no such quality control - it was painted on R-reg B10BLEs before it was painted on a lot of the modern Geminis, there was no organisation.

The livery looks a lot better on something like the 65 plate Streetdecks in South Yorkshire (where the body is deep blue, with silver stripes) - maybe if they only painted the youngest/ new buses in the livery and had a darker colour scheme then it would work a lot better.

It's a shame because the interiors on new First vehicles is a lot better, they are offering things as standard that Stagecoach/Arriva only have on Gold/Max/Sapphire services, there's a lot for First to shout about, but an 18 reg bus turns up in the same faded livery as a twenty year old bus and passengers won't realise the difference. I was on one of the new 18 reg Streetlites (that Olive Grove has for the 1a/56) last week and it's wonderful inside (USB chargers etc) but you wouldn't guess from the outside.

 

[Non Multi]

In my opinion the 'Olympia' livery is insipid, combined with the local branding in bright neon colours with that very angular typeface isn't particularly attractive. But an insipid generic bus livery seems to be the least of FG's problems.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The ex Aircoach Levante coaches that have gone to Aberdeen were very unloved when they were in Dublin, although saying that the Panthers that have since replaced them in Dublin are not exactly loved either and clearly bought to a price rather than a decent spec. None of them can touch the comfort of the older coaches in the fleet.

The new MD at Aircoach is off to a bad start, only a few days into the job they've managed to create a fare system where walk up fares are now cheaper than booked fares in quite a few circumstances, I'm unsure if that's an oversight or just plain stupidity.

No doubt their profits will take a massive hit in the next set of accounts in March as the competitors have wised up to this and are taking full advantage of the downgrading of the onboard environment at the same time as tweaking the yield system by seemingly increasing the fares of some of the higher bands and cutting back the number of seats on the lower bands.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The ex Aircoach Levante coaches that have gone to Aberdeen were very unloved when they were in Dublin, although saying that the Panthers that have since replaced them in Dublin are not exactly loved either and clearly bought to a price rather than a decent spec. None of them can touch the comfort of the older coaches in the fleet.

Funny you should mention the Levantes. They've at long last finally entered service just last week (23501/2 have been here since last July). Ironically 23501 had to be substituted on her first day as she developed an oil leak. Other than that they seem to be doing fine.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Funny you should mention the Levantes. They've at long last finally entered service just last week (23501/2 have been here since last July). Ironically 23501 had to be substituted on her first day as she developed an oil leak. Other than that they seem to be doing fine.

Lets just say it wouldn't be the first time that one had that problem.

 

[Mwanesh]

The ex Aircoach Levante coaches that have gone to Aberdeen were very unloved when they were in Dublin, although saying that the Panthers that have since replaced them in Dublin are not exactly loved either and clearly bought to a price rather than a decent spec. None of them can touch the comfort of the older coaches in the fleet.

The new MD at Aircoach is off to a bad start, only a few days into the job they've managed to create a fare system where walk up fares are now cheaper than booked fares in quite a few circumstances, I'm unsure if that's an oversight or just plain stupidity.

No doubt their profits will take a massive hit in the next set of accounts in March as the competitors have wised up to this and are taking full advantage of the downgrading of the onboard environment at the same time as tweaking the yield system by seemingly increasing the fares of some of the higher bands and cutting back the number of seats on the lower bands.

What should they buy then.Those Panthers are ok for the route.From a business point of view its still an investment.Coaches dont come cheap nowadays .Even buses cost a fortune .

 

[Jordan Adam]

Lets just say it wouldn't be the first time that one had that problem.

Hardly surprising. The newer Scanais are (for lack of a better work) pretty crap imo. The K230UBs Stagecoach up here have are the most hopeless things ever.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Busy fools making very good money for it.

What is the basis of this statement? Do you have access to their management accounts?

 

[F Great Eastern]

What should they buy then.Those Panthers are ok for the route.From a business point of view its still an investment.Coaches dont come cheap nowadays .Even buses cost a fortune .

Aircoach's success was built on being a luxury operator that provided superior levels of comfort and legroom compared to the competition and is in danger of losing it's identity and what sets it apart from the competition who are moving forward whilst Aircoach move back.

To quote their own website: "Aircoach has always been renowned for operating luxurious coaches on our scheduled services, with leather interiors on the majority of coaches and significant leg room."

Now they've lost those things that set them apart and the competition know this and have been exploiting it for the last number of months by running campaigns basically taunting Aircoach for downgrading their service as you can see below as erected outside Aircoach's stops.

Until very recently the Aircoach fleet was made up almost fully of 45 seat coaches on two axles and 53 seats on three axles and was successful and getting modal switch from trains as well as other operators. Recently there's been a bleed back to the train and to rivals operators as the comfort levels of the past simply are not there anymore as they're going for 53 seats on two axles which is a substantial downgrade.

The only benefit of the new coaches is lower fuel consumption. The build quality and level of comfort is far worse. I've read many opinions from those in Ireland that they'd rather travel on a 10 year old Aircoach with good comfort and build quality than a new one with poor comfort and rattling after a few months says it all really.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Maybe if people listened to what the drivers have to say things would be changed. They are the eyes and ears of the company so mocking them isnt going to get you very far.

I wasn't. Drivers are a valuable source of information on all sorts of things, often under-utilised. However, they do not have access to full cost or revenue information, so are unlikely to be correct in their 'perceptions' of profitability. This is even more so with coaching, where revenue is all paid directly to the operator.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I wasn't. Drivers are a valuable source of information on all sorts of things, often under-utilised. However, they do not have access to full cost or revenue information, so are unlikely to be correct in their 'perceptions' of profitability. This is even more so with coaching, where revenue is all paid directly to the operator.

Pretty much exactly - the accounts will tell you a lot more than the drivers will know about the commercial performance of the business.

 

[DMU180]

What is the basis of this statement? Do you have access to their management accounts?

No access to any accounts however they are far from one of the cheapest operators in Aberdeen. They have a lot of school contracts with Aberdeen’s several private schools, lots of Megabus duplicates, Rail Replacement, on top of all the private hire/corporate contracts. Not even First would be stupid enough to have coaches racing around and not being paid good money for it.

 

[DMU180]

I wasn't. Drivers are a valuable source of information on all sorts of things, often under-utilised. However, they do not have access to full cost or revenue information, so are unlikely to be correct in their 'perceptions' of profitability. This is even more so with coaching, where revenue is all paid directly to the operator.

Surely the drivers are able to speak to clients who may tell them how much they’ve paid, they will have an idea of how much it would cost to hire the coach. I appreciate it has to be taken with a pinch of salt but they would be able to give a good indication.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Surely the drivers are able to speak to clients who may tell them how much they’ve paid, they will have an idea of how much it would cost to hire the coach. I appreciate it has to be taken with a pinch of salt but they would be able to give a good indication.

If I'd paid a company a lot of money to provide a service, I'd be pretty p*****d off if their delivery employee then asked me how much me or my organisation had paid!! Even in the unlikely event The driver got a correct answer (and didn't get dismissed the day after following a complaint from the client), he/she would have no idea of the true costs of running that coach - fuel, maintenance, insurance, depreciation, HP interest, utilisation, overhead costs and apportionment. For that matter he/she would probably assume driver costs were his/her hourly rate - forgetting non wheel-turning time/inefficiency, holiday pay, NI, sick pay, pension, uniforms etc etc......

 

[DMU180]

If I'd paid a company a lot of money to provide a service, I'd be pretty p*****d off if their delivery employee then asked me how much me or my organisation had paid!! Even in the unlikely event The driver got a correct answer (and didn't get dismissed the day after following a complaint from the client), he/she would have no idea of the true costs of running that coach - fuel, maintenance, insurance, depreciation, HP interest, utilisation, overhead costs and apportionment. For that matter he/she would probably assume driver costs were his/her hourly rate - forgetting non wheel-turning time/inefficiency, holiday pay, NI, sick pay, pension, uniforms etc etc......

I’m not suggesting that the drivers ask but they must have people who grumble about the prices. When I drove coaches I certainly heard people’s gripes about the costs.

I think you are being slightly ridiculous with what you are interpreting. I’m merely suggesting that the drivers would have an idea of the going rate to hire a coach and so would be able to compare it to what other companies would charge for a similar journey. I feel we are going off on a tangent. My initial posting in this forum was regarding the lack of investment in the coaching fleet. Not to get into a discussion about how much money they make, I think what I think based on what I hear, evidently you hear differently. For First group to have retained the coaching department for so long shows that they obviously see value in it as part of the Aberdeen service offering.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I’m not suggesting that the drivers ask but they must have people who grumble about the prices. When I drove coaches I certainly heard people’s gripes about the costs.

I think you are being slightly ridiculous with what you are interpreting. I’m merely suggesting that the drivers would have an idea of the going rate to hire a coach and so would be able to compare it to what other companies would charge for a similar journey. I feel we are going off on a tangent. My initial posting in this forum was regarding the lack of investment in the coaching fleet. Not to get into a discussion about how much money they make, I think what I think based on what I hear, evidently you hear differently. For First group to have retained the coaching department for so long shows that they obviously see value in it as part of the Aberdeen service offering.

Agreed. The original (sub) subject was the contention that Aberdeen coach unit was profitable. I still don't think we have any reliable data to prove or disprove it.

 

[DMU180]

Agreed. The original (sub) subject was the contention that Aberdeen coach unit was profitable. I still don't think we have any reliable data to prove or disprove it.

Indeed although I would find it difficult to believe that it could be unprofitable given that they have so many coaches running around. Especially with a 14 week rail replacement contract on their doorstep each year for the next few years.

 

[overthewater]

There not using coaches on that rail replacements, all I saw on Monday was streetlites and 16 year old stock. Other companies had coaches

 

[DMU180]

There not using coaches on that rail replacements, all I saw on Monday was streetlites and 16 year old stock. Other companies had coaches

It is/was coaches being used. The problem is they don’t have enough coaches to cover it along with all their existing work hence the use of service buses. From what I have saw they’ve had mostly coaches with the occasional service bus supplementing.

 

[Volvodart]

Agreed. The original (sub) subject was the contention that Aberdeen coach unit was profitable. I still don't think we have any reliable data to prove or disprove it.

Virtually all coaches are from 54 to 55 plate. First would not have enough newer coaches (of sufficient depreciated age) to replace them, so we will see if they pull out or buy second hand coaches at some time to come. Most of the Aberdeen work is for one private school contract. I do not know when it ends, but if it was lost to another contractor, there would not be that much work left apart from rail replacement.