Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders

[gareth950]

The two public interviews the BBC put out on the day of the announcement were really feeble.
They were from Wrexham and Chester (not Cardiff, at least, and not bothered about the Metro).
The former said more trains would be nice, the latter said some of the many closed stations should be reopened (I think he was referring to local stops between Chester and Prestatyn).
And that was all.

Ugh, what a nauseating love-in. Ludicrous lack of substance in that interview.

"What's going to happen?"
"It's going to be great"
"What's changing?"
"These companies are great"
"When will it happen?"
"It will take time"

Perhaps by "The operators said while the changes would not happen overnight Wales' railway "would be unrecognisable" in five years time" they mean you can't paint all those Pacers a different colour overnight.

It's all rather pathetic isn't it. This process has only survived to the end becuase the weak 'media' in Wales have gone along with everything that TfW, Skates and Jones have said unquestioningly, and the few articles that have been written questioning TfW's process, for example by Rhodri Clark, have been buried on obscure websites that no-one outside of the industry will read.
When Skates is best mates with Sion Barry, the business editor at Wales Online, the biggest rival news outlet to the BBC in Wales, who has more than happily swallowed all the spin and printed whatever TfW have wanted him to, there was no chance of this process being given any proper scrutiny.
If TfW had made public everything they should have at every stage of the process, I doubt the whole procurement would have survived. The type of seceretive procurement would not have survived to the end in this form in England or Scotland, where the checks and balances on government are much, much stronger.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's a piece in the Daily Post about WG wanting new subsidised domestic air services to Cardiff.
It's too disjointed to lift quotes from, but majors on services to Manchester, with the list also mentioning Leeds, Humberside, Glasgow, Aberdeen and even London.
They also seem to want a larger plane on Holyhead-Cardiff.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/subsided-air-route-manchester-cardiff-14700133
Maybe they have given up expecting major rail improvements to these destinations, but Manchester is a little odd, with its half-decent hourly service.
There can't be much scope for a short hop to London, either.

 

[SamYeager]

Looking forward to discovering whether WAG can make an even bigger foul up than the DfT in awarding a franchise.

 

[adrock1976]

I think it said something like

We are a small devolved Government with little experience of railways, big ambitions, but shallow pockets.

Please quote for a world-class Metro transit system. It must be electric as we can get EU money for that but there’s some urgency as it must be spent by 2023. We don’t want to spend any money with Network Rail but we think we can hive off the bit shown in red on Map A so that should be where the money is spent. We expect a better one than Manchester. For the avoidance of doubt the recent investment in resignalling and other infrastructure improvements is to be regarded as a sunk cost.


All staff must be reemployed on identical or better terms, though after a decent interval we will meet the costs of generous redundancy or early retirement packages.

A factory has been provided at Newport. Use of this and the maximum proportion of Welsh components in the supply of trams rolling stock is encouraged. There are excellent links to the rail and motorway networks as well as the docks who have experience in importing railway vehicles and have only dropped one.

Planning permission has been obtained for a tram depot at Taffs Well. There is no obligation to build one there of course.

PS There are other railways in Wales and we’d like you to look after them too. Oh, and some in England ”

Add text after "...Some in England" as follows:

"which must have a train every 60 minutes between Cardiff and Holyhead. Even though no normal passenger ever does that journey at all."

 

[squizzler]

There's a piece in the Daily Post about WG wanting new subsidised domestic air services to Cardiff.
It's too disjointed to lift quotes from, but majors on services to Manchester, with the list also mentioning Leeds, Humberside, Glasgow, Aberdeen and even London.
They also seem to want a larger plane on Holyhead-Cardiff.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/subsided-air-route-manchester-cardiff-14700133
Maybe they have given up expecting major rail improvements to these destinations, but Manchester is a little odd, with its half-decent hourly service.
There can't be much scope for a short hop to London, either.

The litany of routes is given at the end of the article (reproduced below). It all smacks of a 1950's mindset where flying and motoring were still seen as glamorous and businesslike and before intercity rail was developed. Besides, weren't we all told in relation to HS2 that journey speed was not important because all workers are issued with laptops these days?

The full list of routes being considered by Welsh Government officials are:
Cardiff-Manchester

Cardiff-Leeds Bradford

Cardiff-Humberside

Cardiff-Glasgow (double daily return compared with the single daily return currently

commercially offered)

Cardiff-Aberdeen (direct return compared with the indirect currently commercially

offered)

Cardiff-London (important in the light of the recent commercial failure of this route)

Cardiff-Newquay

Cardiff-Inverness

Cardiff-Norwich

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's all rather pathetic isn't it. This process has only survived to the end becuase the weak 'media' in Wales have gone along with everything that TfW, Skates and Jones have said unquestioningly, and the few articles that have been written questioning TfW's process, for example by Rhodri Clark, have been buried on obscure websites that no-one outside of the industry will read.
When Skates is best mates with Sion Barry, the business editor at Wales Online, the biggest rival news outlet to the BBC in Wales, who has more than happily swallowed all the spin and printed whatever TfW have wanted him to, there was no chance of this process being given any proper scrutiny.
If TfW had made public everything they should have at every stage of the process, I doubt the whole procurement would have survived. The type of seceretive procurement would not have survived to the end in this form in England or Scotland, where the checks and balances on government are much, much stronger.

I'm very much expecting a Walesonline tit bit piece before the detail is officially announced. Something along the lines job bonanza in Valleys as WG ensure local firms and people work on building the light rail depot in Taff Wells and on core valley lines. The announcement itself will be all glee and self congratulation some mainstream media outlets and local policiians will lap it up however once the cat is out the bag on detail the losers will start asking questions once the reality sets in especially the numerous UA's in South Wales that are none "core".

The Marches have made strong representing to DfT about their wishes and desires , TFW/WG would have to be mad not to include improvements to placate you can be sure the reaction will be take us out the control of WG if they even fall even 10% short......the benefits of an hourly service to Holyhead are lost on the good folk of Hereford.

 

[mmh]

My personal experience of the obsession with North to South direct services is you have a departure board at Llandudno Junction, or any coast station, saying there's a train to Maesteg. None of us gogs have any idea where that is and it's really confusing for people.

 

[Parallel]

My personal experience of the obsession with North to South direct services is you have a departure board at Llandudno Junction, or any coast station, saying there's a train to Maesteg. None of us gogs have any idea where that is and it's really confusing for people.

Really, the departure board and announcements should say ‘Maesteg Via Cardiff Central’ or ‘Via Chester’

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Really, the departure board and announcements should say ‘Maesteg Via Cardiff Central’ or ‘Via Chester’

The last time I saw a departure screen it did indeed read 'Maesteg via Cardiff Central'

 

[Gwenllian2001]

My personal experience of the obsession with North to South direct services is you have a departure board at Llandudno Junction, or any coast station, saying there's a train to Maesteg. None of us gogs have any idea where that is and it's really confusing for people.

Perhaps you gogs should be better educated. It's the place where the Welsh National Anthem was first performed.

 

[mmh]

Really, the departure board and announcements should say ‘Maesteg Via Cardiff Central’ or ‘Via Chester’

They don't, and there are no automatic announcements. And there probably shouldn't be on that line

 

[Rhydgaled]

What is the Liverpool to South Wales demand like? Could this actually be a sensible way to handle the Marches problem, i.e. to allow the Holyheads to run to Crewe instead and the Marches be served from Liverpool via Chester?

I think the problem is that extending the Crewe-Chester shuttle would require one of the following:

• Retiming the Euston-Chester by half an hour (swapping times with the Crewe-Chester shuttle) in both directions
  
• Retiming the Wales & Borders Manchester-Chester path by half an hour (swaping to use the 'peak extra' path on an hourly basis and the current path in the peaks only) in both directions
• Retiming both the Euston-Chester and W&B Manchester-Chester by half an hour in one direction (meaning that the Manchester needs to terminate at Piccadilly and not extend to the airport) - this might not work

Otherwise, the Crewe-Holyhead would fight for the same path as the Manchester-Llandudno, or the Crewe-Chester section would lose the current roughly half-hourly interval and instead have the Crewe-Holyhead only a few minutes ahead of or behind the Euston-Chester.

What's the Welsh phrase for "No Pacers"?

Apart from them, given the somewhat predictable Sprinter refurb, the only other thing I can see them ruling out is the 230 since it's not 'world class' enough… although, you could interpret Shooter's recent speeches as saying otherwise. One to watch there.

The Northern and TPE ITTs, if those are the ones you are referring to, still left a suite of options for the bidders to pick and choose from, though - It wasn't a case of stating "You must take this fleet of trains".

The only ITT I have any recollection of reading (West Midlands I think it was) was more like 'you may only take stock cascaded from other operators if it is on this list or you can show that the current operator of said stock can use something else (perhaps something you plan to release)'. It could well be that the DfT have insisted that the Welsh Government disallow the use of (for example) 170s so that they are available to bidders for the East Midlands franchise (come to think of it, is the ITT out for that? Might give some clues as to what cascades Wales&Borders are allowed to take).

Gerald doesn’t have First Class, he has Business Class (though perhaps Political Class might be more appropriate )

It might be branded as business class on the website, but in order to be permitted to sit in the 'Business Class' carriage I believe you have to purchase a First Class ticket. The livery of the buffet car also stated 'First Class' but that might have changed (I cannot find recent photos and haven't seen Gerald myself for some time).

Don't forget that what was in the ITT may not be what the end position is. There has been a lengthy "negotiation" process, so even what was in the winning bid might have been changed. Possibly that's why they don't want the ITT out there.

The way I understood it; the negotiation process (which they called 'competitive dialog' I believe) was prior to the ITT being issued and the ITT was constructed based on the outcome of the negotiation; but I've probably seen less information than most posters on here.

 

[Rhydgaled]

They don't, and there are no automatic announcements. And there probably shouldn't be on that line

I thought there were announcements (possibly only manual in some places) at every ATW station. Several stations west of Carmarthen have LED displays with a text-to-speech system (with terrible pronunciation of some place names) which I think Arriva had a programme of installing everywhere that did not already have a passenger information system.

 

[Dai Corner]

It might be branded as business class on the website, but in order to be permitted to sit in the 'Business Class' carriage I believe you have to purchase a First Class ticket. The livery of the buffet car also stated 'First Class' but that might have changed (I cannot find recent photos and haven't seen Gerald myself for some time).

No, you buy a standard ticket and pay a supplement, or buy a ‘Business Class Advance’.
https://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/business-class/

Business Class Tickets
A standard single or return ticket from Holyhead to Cardiff is valid for this service. Business Class travel is available for an extra supplement on the standard fare, priced from as little as £10 depending on the length of the journey being made. There are also some excellent deals available for passengers booking in advance with Business Class Advance single tickets, priced between £36 and £80, available for purchase subject to availability.

I suspect AMs and civil servants aren’t allowed to claim for First Class and having Business Class is a way round this.

 

[HH]

The way I understood it; the negotiation process (which they called 'competitive dialog' I believe) was prior to the ITT being issued and the ITT was constructed based on the outcome of the negotiation; but I've probably seen less information than most posters on here.

That is correct, but there is also a period of negotiation post-bid. This is standard, but in the case of W&B it appears to have lasted longer than normal. Things that could be covered during this phrase could include potential changes to the original specification, areas of weakness in the bid that the letting authority would like some assurance on, or changes to, and firmer commitments on some key deliverables (i.e. where the commitment proposed by the bidder was felt to be inadequate).

 

[HH]

I suspect AMs and civil servants aren’t allowed to claim for First Class and having Business Class is a way round this.

Actually, the majority of larger businesses don't allow First Class travel or have considerable restrictions around it these days. The recession caused a lot of firms to re-examine their travel policies.

 

[Rhydgaled]

No, you buy a standard ticket and pay a supplement, or buy a ‘Business Class Advance’.
https://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/business-class/

Well, the GWR Journey Planner shows Gerald as having 'First and standard class' and offers '1st Class Advance Single' tickets for travel on the service. I had forgotten about the option to upgrade on-board; that could well be sold as 'Business Class' I suppose. Does the external livery still say 'First Class' though?

That is correct, but there is also a period of negotiation post-bid. This is standard, but in the case of W&B it appears to have lasted longer than normal. Things that could be covered during this phrase could include potential changes to the original specification, areas of weakness in the bid that the letting authority would like some assurance on, or changes to, and firmer commitments on some key deliverables (i.e. where the commitment proposed by the bidder was felt to be inadequate).

Ah ok; I'm assuming they neogotiate with all the remaining bidders post-bid, otherwise "changes to the original specification" would presumably be grounds for the loser(s) to appeal.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ah ok; I'm assuming they neogotiate with all the remaining bidders post-bid, otherwise "changes to the original specification" would presumably be grounds for the loser(s) to appeal.

Not usually.
DfT changed a great deal of the IEP contract terms after Hitachi was appointed preferred bidder.
Things like the proportion of electric to bi-mode sets, and deleting the diesel-only version.
Bombardier and Alstom never got a second look-in.

 

[causton]

I thought there were announcements (possibly only manual in some places) at every ATW station. Several stations west of Carmarthen have LED displays with a text-to-speech system (with terrible pronunciation of some place names) which I think Arriva had a programme of installing everywhere that did not already have a passenger information system.

Colwyn Bay certainly has announcements and boards as I was there the other day! So surely the Junction should have one...

 

[Dai Corner]

Well, the GWR Journey Planner shows Gerald as having 'First and standard class' and offers '1st Class Advance Single' tickets for travel on the service. I had forgotten about the option to upgrade on-board; that could well be sold as 'Business Class' I suppose. Does the external livery still say 'First Class' though?

I’m going to have to go and have a ride on Gerald and check for First Class branding inside and outside.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Perhaps you gogs should be better educated. It's the place where the Welsh National Anthem was first performed.

So this makes it a large tourist attraction then?

 

[Gareth Marston]

No, you buy a standard ticket and pay a supplement, or buy a ‘Business Class Advance’.
https://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/business-class/



I suspect AMs and civil servants aren’t allowed to claim for First Class and having Business Class is a way round this.

Sure is

 

[tiptoptaff]

The fact that WAG/TfW seem to be hell bent on pursuing the Cardiff-London air route, with emphasis on the fact they acknowledge it was a commercial failure (didn't last long after the tunnel reopened) tells you everything you need to know about how little an understanding they have of what they're doing.

 

[Dai Corner]

The fact that WAG/TfW seem to be hell bent on pursuing the Cardiff-London air route, with emphasis on the fact they acknowledge it was a commercial failure (didn't last long after the tunnel reopened) tells you everything you need to know about how little an understanding they have of what they're doing.

They’re doing it in anticipation of the lengthy blockade of Cardiff Central while they rip out the newly-installed signals and transform it into an innovative world-class tram terminus and car park (with a couple of platforms for trains as an afterthought).

 

[tiptoptaff]

They’re doing it in anticipation of the lengthy blockade of Cardiff Central while they rip out the newly-installed signals and transform it into an innovative world-class tram terminus and car park (with a couple of platforms for trains as an afterthought).

Ahh yes, I forgot, is that where they also turn the frontage in to a greenhouse with "commercial development space for world class retail industries"?

 

[gareth950]

They’re doing it in anticipation of the lengthy blockade of Cardiff Central while they rip out the newly-installed signals and transform it into an innovative world-class tram terminus and car park (with a couple of platforms for trains as an afterthought).

Yes, a multi storey, 700 space car park on the Brains site in the heart of the city centre right next to a public transport interchange, as getting people out of their cars for travel into Cardiff is an absolute priority for Cardiff council and TfW.

 

[gareth950]

Ahh yes, I forgot, is that where they also turn the frontage in to a greenhouse with "commercial development space for world class retail industries"?

It's not the frontage, it's more the brand new rear station entrance that is to be demolished and completely re-built again under TfW's and Cardiff Council's proposals. Presumably because NR and DfT designed and built the current, brand new rear entrance, but now TfW and Welsh Govt want a go. Madness.

 

[tiptoptaff]

It's not the frontage, it's more the brand new rear station entrance that is to be demolished and completely re-built again under TfW's and Cardiff Council's proposals. Presumably because NR and DfT designed and built the current, brand new rear entrance, but now TfW and Welsh Govt want a go. Madness.

I was on about their plan to do up the front all in glass and turn it in to a 3storey retail hub, replacing the under-platform subways with a footbridge!!

 

[gareth950]

I was on about their plan to do up the front all in glass and turn it in to a 3storey retail hub, replacing the under-platform subways with a footbridge!!

No, those plans were binned ages ago as that plan was flatly turned down for funding by DfT.
They're hoping the new plans to demolish recently the DfT funded rear station entrance, and move the GWR listed frontage of the station forward to extend platform 0, have more chance of getting approved.
Under the new plans the subways stay but are somehow widened.

 

[tiptoptaff]

No, those plans were binned ages ago as that plan was flatly turned down for funding by DfT.
They're hoping the new plans to demolish recently the DfT funded rear station entrance, and move the GWR listed frontage of the station forward to extend platform 0, have more chance of getting approved.
Under the new plans the subways stay but are somehow widened.

I'd like to know how to widen the subways without causing problems to the platforms above. Do they realise the cost of moving grade-listed buildings brick by brick?!