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Transgender sporting question

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tony_mac

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Intersex athletes clearly have a competitive advantage if they identify as women - they should have their own category. It’s not a level playing field.
The IAAF previously had a blanket ban, but this was ruled to be unlawful without supporting evidence that it was actually proven to be unfair.
They then spent two years looking into this in great detail before coming up with the new rules. While I don't necessarily agree with them, I would rather listen to qualified people, who spent years studying the issue, than the uninformed opinions of random internet posters.
 
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pemma

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So you reckon all sports should be genderless then?

As I said in an earlier post I think sports having weight and/or height categories might be better than gender categories. However, you were talking about a level playing field and seemed to suggest transgender athletes being barred from competing in the same categories as people who retain the same sex they were born with, would create a level playing field on it's own.
 

Bromley boy

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You act like this is some revelation - it is the most basic fact about her that everybody else knows, and have been referring too throughout this thread.
She does not have any external male sexual organs, and has been treated as female since birth - it was only the detailed tests she has undergone since becoming an athlete that revealed this condition.

It seems you have been arguing for days about something, without knowing the most basic facts, which would have been obvious after a 1-minute search.

Well earlier I was told by one of the self appointed trans/inter sex experts on here that she “was born female and is female”, then I discover that she was born intersex. So it seems I’m not the only poster struggling with basic facts.

I don’t profess to be an expert on these matters. I do find it utterly bizarre the lengths to which some posters will go to to deny differences between cis/trans/intersex “women”.
 

507021

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I don’t profess to be an expert on these matters. I do find it utterly bizarre the lengths to which some posters will go to to deny differences between cis/trans/intersex “women”.

As far as I am concerned a trans woman should be recognised as a woman, as they wish to be. Same as a trans man being recognised as a man.
 

AlterEgo

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The IAAF previously had a blanket ban, but this was ruled to be unlawful without supporting evidence that it was actually proven to be unfair.
They then spent two years looking into this in great detail before coming up with the new rules. While I don't necessarily agree with them, I would rather listen to qualified people, who spent years studying the issue, than the uninformed opinions of random internet posters.

There is one thing listening to experts, whose expertise I don’t question.

There’s another thing to listen to people who actually watch sport for entertainment, which are why professional sports exist in the first place, and why those expert bodies exist.

I wouldn’t watch mixed football or other team sports and I wager most of the audience would lose some interest.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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As far as I am concerned a trans woman should be recognised as a woman, as they wish to be. Same as a trans man being recognised as a man.

That's fair enough for you to say, but just out of interest, would you personally ever agree to date a transwoman knowing full well that she was transgender from the minute you met her? I mean if you recognise as them as a woman anyway then I imagine it may not make the slightest difference, but I'll see what you shall say in such regard. Just a test of your beliefs is all really.
 

tony_mac

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I think you’ve just seen some reasoned postings that don’t fit into your world view, and haven’t been able to respond in kind.
Really? I'm not even sure I have a particular 'world view' in this matter - other than I think that the rules should be based on rationality.
(I was referring, not particularly seriously, to you actually not knowing any of the facts, but still posting opinions about them, when a very brief search would have given you the necessary evidence. )
Well earlier I was told by one of the self appointed trans/inter sex experts on here that she “was born female and is female”, then I discover that she was born intersex.
I didn't see that post before, or I would have clarified it. As I said, it's extremely well known that she was born intersex - but predominantly female (as in, nobody knew that she was intersex until she was tested as an athlete). It's been in the news for several years on and off.
There’s another thing to listen to people who actually watch sport for entertainment, which are why professional sports exist in the first place, and why those expert bodies exist.
I wouldn’t watch mixed football or other team sports and I wager most of the audience would lose some interest.
That's a somewhat different argument, and undoubtedly there is some truth in that. But some people lose interest in a sport when they let foreigners play, that doesn't mean they should necessarily be banned.
 

Bromley boy

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As far as I am concerned a trans woman should be recognised as a woman, as they wish to be. Same as a trans man being recognised as a man.

We should certainly refer to them by their preferred gender, if it makes things easier for them.

But let’s not pretend that a trans woman is “female” in the sense of a cis woman. They simply are not, in the view of the vast majority of people.
 

507021

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That's fair enough for you to say, but just out of interest, would you personally ever agree to date a transwoman knowing full well that she was transgender from the minute you met her? I mean if you recognise as them as a woman anyway then I imagine it may not make the slightest difference, but I'll see what you shall say in such regard. Just a test of your beliefs is all really.

Yes, absolutely.
 

507021

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But let’s not pretend that a trans woman is “female” in the sense of a cis woman. They simply are not, in the view of the vast majority of people.

That is your opinion, which I accept, however my opinion is they are.
 

Bromley boy

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Yes, absolutely.

That is a highly unusual viewpoint for a heterosexual man. In fact I don’t believe I have ever met a heterosexual man who would date another man, even one who has had a sex change.

That is your opinion, which I accept, however my opinion is they are.

But it’s not just a matter of opinion.

As we discussed upthread someone who suffers from gender dysphoria is someone who suffers from a mental disorder leading to a conflict between biological sex and what they think their gender should be.

That is inherently different from someone who does not suffer from gender dysphoria.

Asserting that a male gender dysphoria sufferer *is* female in the same way as a CIS woman is “double think” in the truest sense, and is simply a lie.

If I have a pet dog and I suffer from a mental disorder that makes me believe it’s a cat, you might humour me by agreeing with me, but it doesn’t change reality.
 

Up_Tilt_390

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I would suggest a heterosexual man who claims he is willing to date other men either isn’t heterosexual, or isn’t telling the truth.

In both regards I shall have to give the benefit of the doubt to people I don't really know. For me personally I couldn't care less who others would want to date anyway, but I myself probably wouldn't date someone who I knew to be transgender. Having said that I don't really play the dating game, nor do I even speak to cisgendered or transgendered women at all, but then a lot of other people do. Either way, I have to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I mean sometimes you wouldn't know without them telling you firsthand. Some (and possibly a lot) of transgendered people do a good job being who they want to be in regards to their genders. I mean I wouldn't even know Munroe Bergdorf was transgender if it weren't for the headlines saying so when she got sacked from L'Oreal. Course how they look is the least of my concerns when they're already such a nasty piece of work to begin with. I think you know exactly what I am talking about...
 

Bromley boy

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For me personally I couldn't care less who others would want to date anyway

Neither could I to be fair.

What I find worrying is that we rapidly seem to be moving towards a world where people are so blinded by political correctness, so desperate to be seen to say the “right” thing, that they are apparently unwilling or unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.

It’s certainly an interesting discussion. For what it’s worth, I have absolutely no issue with people dating who they want, or even identifying with whichever gender they want, but there is something fundamentally different betwen someone who is born a man, develops gender dysphoria and has a sex change, and someone who is born as a biological woman.

The vast majority of the human population know this of course and, not for the first time, I’m reminded that this forum is populated by people whose world view is pretty unusual, to say the least!
 

507021

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As we discussed upthread someone who suffers from gender dysphoria is someone who suffers from a mental disorder leading to a conflict between biological sex and what they think their gender should be.

Gender dysphoria is not classified as a mental disorder...

I would suggest a heterosexual man who claims he is willing to date other men either isn’t heterosexual, or isn’t telling the truth.

Excuse me?
 

EM2

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The article commences from the premise that there is a great deal of controversy over trans women in sport (not exactly helping your case);
I've never denied that.
It continues by equating the advantages natural females may have in sport (longer limbs, mental strength) as being the same as advantages that may stem from being a “female” who was born male - simply not the same thing to most cis people, both female and male, I’m afraid;
No it doesn't. It states:
'Every day athletes are beaten by others with identifiable difference. And yet those differences are allowed.

It could be physical difference like longer limbs in sports like basketball or swimming; it could be better training facilities enjoyed by developed nations over developing nations; it could be superior mental strength over those who struggle with big occasions.'
Note the use of 'athletes'. Natural females are not mentioned at all in that passage.
It mentions Caster Semenya whom you have repeatedly stated is not trans (see my revalation below, although that’s more for my following post!);
She isn't. Nor does the article state or imply that she is.
It states the benefits of naturally occurring male hormones ingested in the years leading up to transition, which equal a larger male physique, bigger frame, yet also acknowledges these benefits are retained for years after “transitioning”;
Correct, it does. It then states straight afterwards: 'but in general that's the only ongoing effect … [due to treatment] their muscle mass and strength is reduced.' and later states (from the same scientist): 'but the strength and stamina will have altered due to her hormonal treatments' and also:
'Specifically with regard to Hannah, she's big … but one of the things is that she has a large skeletal system which hasn't reduced in size, but her muscles have substantially reduced in size and strength.'

'So she now has a female-size engine trying to move this big skeletal frame around and that is going to cause her some substantial disadvantages.'
It also directly contradicts your previous statement that testosterone levels are lower in trans athletes than in cis females - it says they are the same, after the trans athlete has taken a number of hormones to artificiality produce that result);
I will have to concede that point, as I am using a different computer today, and don't have the site where I found that information in my History.
It cites a paper from an author who moonlights as a trans female athlete (no bias there then);
'Moonlights as'? She is a scientist, and an athlete, and a trans woman, so is uniquely placed to investigate findings in this area. Are you saying that she's lying when she states: "When I started to transition in 2004 … within nine months I had started running 12 per cent slower than I had been before and men run 10-12 per cent faster than women — and so in nine months, I had lost all of my male advantage,"?
I note you didn’t quote the following text from the above article (once again, you fail to appreciate the importance of the feminism lobby to all this);
There was no need to, as overall, the views reported support the theory that there is no advantage, with four interviewees supporting it and one (anonymous) rebutting it.
It also somehow chucks homophobia into the mix. A complete non sequitur which has nothing to do with it.
Agreed. Not relevant and didn't need to be mentioned.
Care to comment on the above? If so, please really comment on it, in terms of a rigorous, line by line, analysis...
Done.
 

EM2

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We don’t have a big enough sample to draw from. We do know that an intersex athlete is currently competing at an elite level but will soon not be allowed to.
Intersex is not trans
But, as discussed, you don’t have any evidence for that conclusion.
Apart from the actual facts provided, the competition results and the statistics for various trans athletes.
 

tony_mac

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What I find worrying is that we rapidly seem to be moving towards a world where people are so blinded by political correctness, so desperate to be seen to say the “right” thing, that they are apparently unwilling or unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.
I would say, based on this thread, that you were at least as guilty as anyone of posting opinions without the facts to back them up.
Perhaps you are also blinded by your own dislike of political correctness?
 

EM2

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I would suggest a heterosexual man who claims he is willing to date other men either isn’t heterosexual, or isn’t telling the truth.
Paris Lees is not a man. Munroe Bergdorf is not a man. Caitlyn Jenner is not a man. Alexis Arquette is not a man. Laverne Cox is not a man. They were all born male, but they are not men.
Can you categorically state that if you saw any of these women in the street, in a store, in a pub or club, that you would know that they were trans?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=trans+women&atb=v111-6_g&iax=images&ia=images
 

Bromley boy

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Gender dysphoria is not classified as a mental disorder...

The same condition is also known as Gender Identity Disorder so, with respect, yes it is.

Excuse me?

Which bit of what I’ve said are you struggling with?

To clarify, the Oxford English Dictionary defines the adjective “heterosexual” as follows:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/heterosexual

(of a person) sexually attracted to people of the opposite sex.

You will notice the definition makes no mention of gender.

You will also note that that someone who believes they are the “wrong” gender due to suffering from dysmorphia still has a biological sex (inter sex people are a little different, I accept). This is a scientifically verifiable fact and is not something that can be wished away or changed.

Therefore, by definition, someone who is heterosexual cannot be attracted to someone of the same sex. If they are, they are homosexual or bisexual.
 

507021

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The same condition is also known as Gender Identity Disorder so, with respect, yes it is.

That isn't what the NHS website says.

This mismatch between sex and gender identity can lead to distressing and uncomfortable feelings that are called gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Which bit of what I’ve said are you struggling with?

To clarify, the Oxford English Dictionary defines the adjective “heterosexual” as follows:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/heterosexual



You will notice the definition makes no mention of gender.

You will also note that that someone who believes they are the “wrong” gender due to suffering from dysmorphia still has a biological sex (inter sex people are a little different, I accept). This is a scientifically verifiable fact and is not something that can be wished away or changed.

Therefore, by definition, someone who is heterosexual cannot be attracted to someone of the same sex. If they are, they are homosexual or bisexual.

I am not struggling with anything thank you.

I have said I would enter a relationship with a trans woman. By your definition, that makes me either homosexual or bisexual, which I am not.
 

Bromley boy

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Paris Lees is not a man. Munroe Bergdorf is not a man. Caitlyn Jenner is not a man. Alexis Arquette is not a man. Laverne Cox is not a man. They were all born male, but they are not men.
Can you categorically state that if you saw any of these women in the street, in a store, in a pub or club, that you would know that they were trans?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=trans+women&atb=v111-6_g&iax=images&ia=images

The people mentioned above are men who suffer gender dysmorphia and have had varying degrees of surgery/hormone therapy.

I concede I wouldn’t necessarily know the people in the images above were trans (I’ve been to Thailand and I know just how convincingly feminine some Thai ladyboys are, for example), but that doesn’t change the reality that they are, in fact, trans.

You appear to believe that someone’s entire identity as either male or female is a purely subjective matter. That’s patently untrue - I am a biological cis male. If I told you that I believed I am actually a woman, that wouldn’t change the reality that I am male. Most importantly it wouldn’t change your perception that I am a man.

As I said earlier identity contains a number of subjective and objective elements, including gender, biological sex and, crucially, how we are perceived by others.

(Thanks for the lengthy response to my other post - I will respond later).
 

tony_mac

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develops gender dysphoria
As far as I am aware, it is not a common view that gender dysphoria develops during adult life - rather that the causes occur during the development of the brain, and only become apparent to the individual later on in life.

And, just out of interest, these developmental problems are not limited to humans. It's even possible to cause animals to change their gender behaviour by exposing eggs to hormones.
Gurney, M. E., & Konishi, M. (1980). Hormone-induced sexual differentiation of brain and behavior in zebra finches. Science, 208 , 1380–1383.


As I said earlier identity contains a number of subjective and objective elements, including gender, biological sex and, crucially, how we are perceived by others.
Just to repeat it - there is not always a single 'biological sex'. The body and brain develop according to various hormonal and genetic signals. In some cases these can be mixed and different parts of the body - including the brain - can develop differently. It is possible, for example, to be genetically female but develop a penis, just as it is possible to be genetically female but develop a 'male' brain etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome
 
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Bromley boy

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That isn't what the NHS website says.



https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/



I am not struggling with anything thank you.

I have said I would enter a relationship with a trans woman. By your definition, that makes me either homosexual or bisexual, which I am not.

But other websites describe the same condition as gender identity disorder. It is an accepted alternative name for the same condition:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/gender-identity-disorder

Re your other point, you appear to believe that words mean whatever you want them to mean when, in fact, they have an objective meaning.

What you have said above is as meaningless as if I described myself as a homosexual when, in fact, I am not and never have been sexually attracted to other men.

If you are telling me you are a male who is attracted to other biological males, then you cannot be heterosexual, by definition. I’m afraid your own thoughts on the matter make no difference to the objective meanings of the words you are using.
 

507021

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But other websites describe the same condition as gender identity disorder. It is an accepted alternative name for the same condition:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/gender-identity-disorder

Re your other point, you appear to believe that words mean whatever you want them to mean when, in fact, they have an objective meaning.

What you have said above is as meaningless as if I described myself as a homosexual when, in fact, I am not and never have been sexually attracted to other men.

If you are telling me you are a male who is attracted to other biological males, then you cannot be heterosexual, by definition. I’m afraid your own thoughts on the matter make no difference to the objective meanings of the words you are using.

I am heterosexual, end of.
 
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