London Northwestern Railway versus West Midlands Trains

[jrh2254]

I want to buy a weekly season ticket from Burton to London Euston and the ticket type says:
Burton on Trent to London Euston (EUS)
Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (Valid only on London Northwestern Railway and CrossCountry services.)

Does this mean I cant get a West Midlands Trains service from Tamworth?
Also can I go via Birmingham with this ticket and get a West Midlands Trains service from BHM?
Just seems confusing with there being London Northwestern Railway and also West Midlands Trains, with WMT seeming to own both I think?
Many thanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

London Northwestern Railway is a brand of West Midlands Trains. It's debatable if they are allowed to use a brand in this way, but it's not a problem for your journey because the services you would want to use are all branded LNR.

 

[jrh2254]

OK thanks. So even the trains from BHM are all LNR into London Euston ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK thanks. So even the trains from BHM are all LNR into London Euston ?

Yes, they are indeed. The WMR brand is not used for any service that serves London Euston.

 

[Starmill]

A journey planner will be quite happy to offer you any 'LM' (West Midlands Trains) service on a permitted route with a ticket on route 00370 'LNR AND XC ONLY' so this certainly would be valid.

 

[yorkie]

Just seems confusing with there being London Northwestern Railway and also West Midlands Trains, with WMT seeming to own both I think?
Many thanks.

Yes it is confusing.

The decision for the train company called West Midlands Trains to have two separate brand names was made by the DfT, and is consistent with the DfT's policy of making things complicated for passengers.

Industry systems correctly have this as one train company, so there is no way for journey planners and booking engines to distinguish between the brand names. The printed name may appear differently, depending on the journey made, but it is all the same TOC and treated as such in the data.

There are some journeys where the TOC operates trains under both brand names (e.g. Wolverhampton to Birmingham); in most of these cases a 'dedicated' fare valid on WMT would have both brand names written on it, but if only had one of them, it would still be valid on all relevant trains the company operates, regardless of route branding.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Just seems confusing with there being London Northwestern Railway and also West Midlands Trains, with WMT seeming to own both I think?
Many thanks.

The two brands are actually London Northwestern Railway and West Midlands Railway, and the services (of both brands) are operated by West Midlands Trains.

The company would perhaps have done better to choose a more distinct name for itself (how's about Spirit of Trevithick Rail Transport, Second City Trains, or British Brummagem Railway? ).

 

[OwlMan]

The two brands are actually London Northwestern Railway and West Midlands Railway, and the services (of both brands) are operated by West Midlands Trains.

The company would perhaps have done better to choose a more distinct name for itself (how's about Spirit of Trevithick Rail Transport, Second City Trains, or British Brummagem Railway? ).

And West Midlands Rail is the company limited by guarantee, owned by the partner authorities, created with the purpose of specifiying and managing rail franchising for the West Midlands. Transport for West Midlands is the transport arm of the West Midlands Combined Authority.

 

[cuccir]

is consistent with the DfT's policy of making things complicated for passengers.

Had to laugh at this one!

 

[Joe Paxton]

And West Midlands Rail is the company limited by guarantee, owned by the partner authorities, created with the purpose of specifiying and managing rail franchising for the West Midlands. Transport for West Midlands is the transport arm of the West Midlands Combined Authority.

Ha!

Though the West Midlands has form in this area, what with the West Midlands metropolitan county (now covered by the WMCA) and the distinct and larger West Midlands Region (which West Midlands Rail covers) !

 

[jrh2254]

A journey planner will be quite happy to offer you any 'LM' (West Midlands Trains) service on a permitted route with a ticket on route 00370 'LNR AND XC ONLY' so this certainly would be valid.

Update: So I bought the ticket and used it twice Burton to London Euston changing at Tamworth without any problems. Then I decided at the weekend to travel to Whitlocks End. I thought that I could travel to BHM without a problem with the ticket. This was ok. I then switched to Birmingham Moor Street to catch the West Midlands Service from that station. I asked at the ticket office if I could use the ticket I had for part of the journey to which she said no giving the reason as the ticket did not mention 'West Midlands Trains'. Hence I purchased a day rtn costing £4.40 to Whitlocks End.
Just out of interest I put my ticket in the Birmingham Moor Street barrier (Burton to Euston) and it let me in ! Why was this? Could I have used it somehow from Birmingham Moor Street to get to London Euston somehow by a circuitious route(valid) and if so why did the person in the ticket office say it was not valid on West Midlands Trains?
Many thanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is Whitlocks End on a Permitted Route from Burton to London?

(Genuine question)

 

[JB_B]

Is Whitlocks End on a Permitted Route from Burton to London?

(Genuine question)

I don't think so, no : not direct, nowhere near shortest route +3m, not mapped, no relevant easement.

 

[jrh2254]

Thanks. I understand that Whitlocks End is not a permitted route.
What about Birmingham Moor Street to leamington spa. Then leamington spa to Coventry picking up the Coventry to
London Euston service.
Would this be permitted and is this why the ticket barrier at Birmingham moor street let me through.
Thanks.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks. I understand that Whitlocks End is not a permitted route.
What about Birmingham Moor Street to leamington spa. Then leamington spa to Coventry picking up the Coventry to
London Euston service.
Would this be permitted and is this why the ticket barrier at Birmingham moor street let me through.
Thanks.

That's not a valid route from Burton upon Trent unfortunately. You could do it with an any permitted season ticket I think, since you can start late and stop short on all permitted routes, but it's not possible on a single/return ticket and certainly not on a TOC-restricted ticket.

 

[cactustwirly]

Thanks. I understand that Whitlocks End is not a permitted route.
What about Birmingham Moor Street to leamington spa. Then leamington spa to Coventry picking up the Coventry to
London Euston service.
Would this be permitted and is this why the ticket barrier at Birmingham moor street let me through.
Thanks.

No, as that isn't a West Midlands Trains or XC train.
If you had an 'any permitted' season then it might be valid through to London Marylebone

 

[Hadders]

Remember that ticket barriers aren’t intelligent and often reject valid tickets, and let passengers through with invalid tickets...

 

[Kite159]

No, as that isn't a West Midlands Trains or XC train.
If you had an 'any permitted' season then it might be valid through to London Marylebone

West Midlands Trains runs a few services (mainly during the peaks) into Leamington Spa

 

[yorkie]

Thanks. I understand that Whitlocks End is not a permitted route.
What about Birmingham Moor Street to leamington spa. Then leamington spa to Coventry picking up the Coventry to
London Euston service.
Would this be permitted and is this why the ticket barrier at Birmingham moor street let me through.
Thanks.

Does the ticket specifically state London Euston or London Terminals?

If the ticket is to London Euston specifically, you are effectively asking if the following is a permitted route:

Burton-on-Trent-Tamworth-Birmingham New Street-Leamington Spa-Coventry-London Euston, is that what you are asking?

At a quick glance, I think the answer is no.

 

[jrh2254]

Ok thanks. I had a weekly season ticket Burton to London Euston but it was restricted to cross country and London north western services.
Any idea why the ticket got me through the barriers at Birmingham Moor Street if I was not entitled to travel on any on the Services from that station ?

 

[cactustwirly]

Ok thanks. I had a weekly season ticket Burton to London Euston but it was restricted to cross country and London north western services.
Any idea why the ticket got me through the barriers at Birmingham Moor Street if I was not entitled to travel on any on the Services from that station ?

Because barriers are stupid, and badly programmed.
It probably didn't see the TOC restriction.

 

[jrh2254]

Does the ticket specifically state London Euston or London Terminals?

If the ticket is to London Euston specifically, you are effectively asking if the following is a permitted route:

Burton-on-Trent-Tamworth-Birmingham New Street-Leamington Spa-Coventry-London Euston, is that what you are asking?

At a quick glance, I think the answer is no.

The ticket specifically states London Euston.
Yes I was asking if I could go :
Burton-on-Trent to Birmingham New Street on crosscountry. Then change to Birmingham Moor Street (I got through the barriers) and go to leamington Spa. Then change at leamington spa to Coventry. Then Coventry to London Euston.
I think this is all possible on cross country , London North Western and / or West Midlands Trains.
Sound like I would be pushing the boundaries by the comments so far !!
The weekly ticket price at £174 was way better than the rip off East Midlands services from Derby and easily beats the Virgin services from Tamworth and Birmingham New Street on price but not speed (from Tamworth).
Thanks.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Remember that ticket barriers aren’t always well programmed and often reject valid tickets, and let passengers through with invalid tickets...

Corrected that for you

 

[OwlMan]

The ticket specifically states London Euston.
Yes I was asking if I could go :
Burton-on-Trent to Birmingham New Street on crosscountry. Then change to Birmingham Moor Street (I got through the barriers) and go to leamington Spa. Then change at leamington spa to Coventry. Then Coventry to London Euston.
I think this is all possible on cross country , London North Western and / or West Midlands Trains.
Sound like I would be pushing the boundaries by the comments so far !!
The weekly ticket price at £174 was way better than the rip off East Midlands services from Derby and easily beats the Virgin services from Tamworth and Birmingham New Street on price but not speed (from Tamworth).
Thanks.

Sorry the post below was posted in error as I misread a map.
Whitlocks End is on a valid mapped Route (WM+TV) but is would be challenging to come up with a valid itinery as there are various easements to contend with as well as a lack of services.

 

[JB_B]

Whitlocks End is on a valid mapped Route (WM+TV) but is would be challenging to come up with a valid itinery as there are various easements to contend with as well as a lack of services

What route were you able to trace on WM+TV ?

 

[Paul Kelly]

If you look at map WM on the official routeing guide website it looks like there's a link between Warwick Group and Leamington Spa allowing you to trace the route (see attached screenshot), but there isn't. That site really has very poor usability!

 

[OwlMan]

If you look at map WM on the official routeing guide website it looks like there's a link between Warwick Group and Leamington Spa allowing you to trace the route (see attached screenshot), but there isn't. That site really has very poor usability!

That what comes of looking at maps on a phone