Northern's Problems in the North West

[Howardh]

Just had a quick look myself , does look a bit better, but still some issues. Anyone travelling to the airport this morning from Bolton ( which somebody is doing on this thread ) would have got there on time.

Yes, me - had a look this morning and just one cancellation and the rest more-or-less as scheduled. Hopefully that will continue for the rest of the week and beyond. However what I don't know is whether everyone got on those trains (crowding) and that none were left behind. But on a selfish note I'm slightly less anxious than before (I want to get down to thinking of enjoying a rare day off rather than will the trains make it to the flight!).

 

[Bantamzen]

Just had a quick look myself , does look a bit better, but still some issues. Anyone travelling to the airport this morning from Bolton ( which somebody is doing on this thread ) would have got there on time.

So I wonder who will win that bet? The 09:54 from Bolton got in 7 late at 10:40 which means that particular poster would have arrived at security around 10:50 (assuming they checked in online). But like you say, it does look better, far less cancellations although still quite a lot of delays through Manchester.

 

[RickSanchez]

Its quite ironic that ASLEF and RMT maintain a " equalisation record " of drivers and guards in order to ensure fairness in the overtime records

PPM
76
Trains
930
On-time (<5/10 min late)
713
Late (>5/10 min & 0 min)
166
V. late (>30 min) or cancelled
51
Thats what it is right now.

Does the cancellations include part cancellations?

NorthernFail app showing
Fully cancelled - 44
Part cancelled - 54
Short formed - 50

 

[mpthomson]

In all these posts, I can't see any reference to the existence of a training simulator, which includes all the changes made by Network Rail.
Is there one? If not would it have avoided any of this farrago?
For instance I know there is one for 175s at Chester which ATW has, and VT certainly have one at Crewe for WCML routes.
Do Northern have a similar facility for its trains/routes?
Why should it take x physical trips over the actual infrastructure with the actual stock before being approved with passengers?
Couldn't most of the route learning be done off-line?
Northern (this franchise and the old one) have had (literally) years to plan this transition, since the electrification plans of 2009 and the 2014 ITT.
All the stock has been knocking about the north for decades, except the 319s which have been around in the north for 5 years.
To the layman it seems not to be an insoluble task to develop the necessary route/stock knowledge well in advance of the new timetable.
For example, why wait till the last minute to train for a long-planned 323/319 through Crewe-Liverpool route across Manchester?
This has nothing to do with NR's electrification delays.
Or am I just being silly?

It may have made some difference but it's not a simple thing to do due to the varying trains used by Northern. In terms of ordering it's going to be a bespoke item with bespoke routes etc and I can't imagine the lead time for manufacture plus testing to get rid of bugs to be much less than 9-12mths. It would be much more complicated than the ATW or VTWC ones due to the larger number of unit types that Northern operate. Mechanically, for layout you'd need one physical cab simulator module (for want of a better term)for each different type of unit.

 

[Moonshot]

Does the cancellations include part cancellations?

NorthernFail app showing
Fully cancelled - 44
Part cancelled - 54
Short formed - 50

Not sure, but as we both know , a part cancelled service doesnt mean a cancelled pax journey particularly if a very late running service has one behind it doing the same run.

 

[Howardh]

So I wonder who will win that bet? The 09:54 from Bolton got in 7 late at 10:40 which means that particular poster would have arrived at security around 10:50 (assuming they checked in online). But like you say, it does look better, far less cancellations although still quite a lot of delays through Manchester.

Realtimetrains shows the 0954 completed it's journey (only) seven minutes late, which is well within the time I would have allocated.

 

[Moonshot]

The membership, through their branches and the representatives that they send to conference, have the power to have it looked at and changed if they so wish.

Which I suspect may happen now, the fact that drivers can earn a minimum £300 for working a rest day is now too big to ignore.

 

[northwichcat]

Not sure, but as we both know , a part cancelled service doesnt mean a cancelled pax journey particularly if a very late running service has one behind it doing the same run.

If it's two services joined up e.g. Alderley Edge to Manchester and Manchester to Wigan and the service starts at Manchester then it would have been a full cancellation prior to the services being joined up a few weeks ago.

 

[Moonshot]

If it's two services joined up e.g. Alderley Edge to Manchester and Manchester to Wigan and the service starts at Manchester then it would have been a full cancellation prior to the services being joined up a few weeks ago.

Dont know tbh...I m simply looking at the impact on passengers who are the most important part of all the elements. If we accept the fact that there will always be operating issues on any given day , then it makes sense to prioritise minimising impact on passengers. This isnt always easy though

 

[RickSanchez]

Not sure, but as we both know , a part cancelled service doesnt mean a cancelled pax journey particularly if a very late running service has one behind it doing the same run.

Northernfail app is showing those scheduled to be cancelled later today e.g 23.13 Preston to Blackpool

Will this show as a cancellation on the ppm data until the actual elapsed time of the cancellation?

May explain the discrepancy if ppm data is live-time rolling data and doesn'tyet include future cancellations

 

[Moonshot]

Northernfail app is showing those scheduled to be cancelled later today e.g 23.13 Preston to Blackpool

Will this show as a cancellation on the ppm data until the actual elapsed time of the cancellation?

May explain the discrepancy if ppm data is live-time rolling data and doesn'tyet include future cancellations

Possibly...I dont really know how it works, but looking beyond the smoke and mirrors of data feeds etc, there are still cancellations and delays, and we are still some way off getting back to normal.

 

[RickSanchez]

Possibly...I dont really know how it works, but looking beyond the smoke and mirrors of data feeds etc, there are still cancellations and delays, and we are still some way off getting back to normal.

Fully agree with that.

Chris Grayling was asked to commit about refusing an extension to the closure of the Windermere branch past the two weeks granted. If he doesn’t grant an extension (as I believe he shouldn’t) then the service is nowhere near any sort of improvement

 

[Bantamzen]

Realtimetrains shows the 0954 completed it's journey (only) seven minutes late, which is well within the time I would have allocated.

Hopefully this bodes well for you!

 

[Tringonometry]

I have made this point a few times now. There are plenty of drivers ( and guards ) who are happy to work rest days ( or as it's called elsewhere, Overtime ). Why oh why does the free choice made by staff has to be subject to an agreement I simply do not know.

Because if it's not regulated then two things are likely to happen:

1) The TOC will fail to fill driver positions and become reliant on RDW to run the basic timetable. A poor way to run an essential service.

2) The uncontrolled distribution of RDW will be unfair and/or corrupt.

 

[Moonshot]

Because if it's not regulated then two things are likely to happen:

1) The TOC will fail to fill driver positions and become reliant on RDW to run the basic timetable. A poor way to run an essential service.

2) The uncontrolled distribution of RDW will be unfair and/or corrupt.

No......ASLEF at our depot maintain ( as I mentioned before ) an equilisation record which shows just how many drivers have worked rest days and how many they have done. Its quite ironic that the LDC reps are on this as well, and it shows just how many rest days they themselves have worked.

Staff can only work rest days if the rules of rostering allow them to....ie 12 hours minimum between shifts as an example. And again I will stress, its entirely voluntarily. Its also worth pointing out that overtime attracts a higher tax rate.

 

[Audioguy]

I think one issue that often makes the car driver take to the train in urban areas is the cost of parking a car in cities, this can level out any cost differential between the car and the train.

For one person travelling to work and back its going to be a difficult choice but for two or three in a car from Preston to Manchester for shopping or an evening then the car wins every time for me even with the high cost of parking. Don't forget the similarly high cost of parking at stations like Preston to take the train in the first place! Wouldn't even think of using the train for Manchester Airport any more.

 

[Tomnick]

Which I suspect may happen now, the fact that drivers can earn a minimum £300 for working a rest day is now too big to ignore.

Quite possibly so. It seems, however, that the previous RDW agreement had been too badly abused though, meant in theory to cover training requirements but in reality used mostly to cover jobs with the training backlog increasing rather than decreasing? I don’t see why a fresh RDW agreement couldn’t be achieved in the near future, one that addresses the union’s obvious concerns around the training backlog...

 

[Moonshot]

Quite possibly so. It seems, however, that the previous RDW agreement had been too badly abused though, meant in theory to cover training requirements but in reality used mostly to cover jobs with the training backlog increasing rather than decreasing? I don’t see why a fresh RDW agreement couldn’t be achieved in the near future, one that addresses the union’s obvious concerns around the training backlog...

No doubt the training backlog has increased, despite someone taking me to task further up the thread for that. But I m not sure how the RDW agreement has been abused.....drivers and guards simply let it be known they are available for rest day working by simply signing a sheet to say they are not available. There will always be training requirements on any one day, the amount of newcomers in the last 18 month has added to that. At the end of the day, it really is simple.....you either work a rest day and earn some extra cash, or you dont and enjoy the time off. Why it has to be politicised I have no idea at all

 

[Bovverboy]

Its also worth pointing out that overtime attracts a higher tax rate.

The current bands for income tax are as follows.
First £11,850 of taxable earnings not taxed.
Next £34,500 taxed at 20%.
Next £103,650 taxed at 40%.
Anything above that taxed at 45%.

It makes no difference if the income is earned as part of an individual's basic working week, or as overtime. So if overtime appears to be taxed at a higher rate, it follows that you must already be earning at least £46,350.

 

[Moonshot]

The current bands for income tax are as follows.
First £11,850 of taxable earnings not taxed.
Next £34,500 taxed at 20%.
Next £103,650 taxed at 40%.
Anything above that taxed at 45%.

It makes no difference if the income is earned as part of an individual's basic working week, or as overtime. So if overtime appears to be taxed at a higher rate, it follows that you must already be earning at least £46,350.

Which is the basic rate for drivers pretty much.

 

[Llama]

RDW is not 'overtime'. You are free to work as much overtime as you wish, as drivers are not in dispute and there is no overtime ban.

ASLEF do not 'maintain RDW equalisation records'. The company produce these records, your LLC receive and publish them for drivers' information so that equalisation claims (part of the RDW agreement) can be made. If equalisation wasn't part of the RDW agreement then newbie drivers (who sign next to nowhere and are of little use to the resource planning centre or the depot shift managers) wouldn't get a look in as far as RDW is concerned.

Your DCW reps sit with the company on RDW review meetings to ascertain the reason and effectiveness of the RDW being used each day, to verify equalisation claims and to highlight misuse.

 

[Moonshot]

RDW is not 'overtime'. You are free to work as much overtime as you wish, as drivers are not in dispute and there is no overtime ban.

ASLEF do not 'maintain RDW equalisation records'. The company produce these records, your LLC receive and publish them for drivers' information so that equalisation claims (part of the RDW agreement) can be made. If equalisation wasn't part of the RDW agreement then newbie drivers (who sign next to nowhere and are of little use to the resource planning centre or the depot shift managers) wouldn't get a look in as far as RDW is concerned.

Your DCW reps sit with the company on RDW review meetings to ascertain the reason and effectiveness of the RDW being used each day, to verify equalisation claims and to highlight misuse.

So a driver can ask to be rostered on his or her rest day as overtime?

 

[Robertj21a]

RDW is not 'overtime'. You are free to work as much overtime as you wish, as drivers are not in dispute and there is no overtime ban.

ASLEF do not 'maintain RDW equalisation records'. The company produce these records, your LLC receive and publish them for drivers' information so that equalisation claims (part of the RDW agreement) can be made. If equalisation wasn't part of the RDW agreement then newbie drivers (who sign next to nowhere and are of little use to the resource planning centre or the depot shift managers) wouldn't get a look in as far as RDW is concerned.

Your DCW reps sit with the company on RDW review meetings to ascertain the reason and effectiveness of the RDW being used each day, to verify equalisation claims and to highlight misuse.

Good to have someone on here who can clarify such issues. No surprise that many of us have been utterly confused !

 

[Moonshot]

Good to have someone on here who can clarify such issues. No surprise that many of us have been utterly confused !

What's been confusing? As far as I'm concerned, anyone working more than 35 hours a week voluntarily is working overtime....it's how it works in the non railway world

 

[Robertj21a]

What's been confusing? As far as I'm concerned, anyone working more than 35 hours a week voluntarily is working overtime....it's how it works in the non railway world

Just about everything !

RDW vs Overtime seemed confusing from how some people were explaining the situation. As someone who has never worked on the railways, but understands that the unions have acquired a certain level of authority, it's all double dutch to me !!

 

[R Trevithick]

So a driver can ask to be rostered on his or her rest day as overtime?

No. But then again you knew that. Pretty sure that is just trolling.

There are agreements in place. The fact that you and certain others on here don’t like that doesn’t change the fact.

There are mechanisms in place if you want to change agreements and those should be used.

The problems on northern are not the fault of Aslef and this thread has been hijacked in an attempt to portray them as such.

I no longer work for northern but I don’t remember too many weeks being under 35 hours when I did. Didn’t see too many people bleating about that then.

 

[Tringonometry]

No......ASLEF at our depot maintain ( as I mentioned before ) an equilisation record which shows just how many drivers have worked rest days and how many they have done. Its quite ironic that the LDC reps are on this as well, and it shows just how many rest days they themselves have worked.

Staff can only work rest days if the rules of rostering allow them to....ie 12 hours minimum between shifts as an example. And again I will stress, its entirely voluntarily. Its also worth pointing out that overtime attracts a higher tax rate.

Are you saying that ASLEF are maintaining an equalisation record in the absence of a RDW agreement? Really?

 

[Moonshot]

Are you saying that ASLEF are maintaining an equalisation record in the absence of a RDW agreement? Really?

Well it's certainly in the notice case, but in any event it's a record of rest days worked. I understand the logic of the fairness issue however.

 

[Moonshot]

No. But then again you knew that. Pretty sure that is just trolling.

There are agreements in place. The fact that you and certain others on here don’t like that doesn’t change the fact.

There are mechanisms in place if you want to change agreements and those should be used.

The problems on northern are not the fault of Aslef and this thread has been hijacked in an attempt to portray them as such.

I no longer work for northern but I don’t remember too many weeks being under 35 hours when I did. Didn’t see too many people bleating about that then.

I never apportioned blame to anyone, but the fact remains that drivers are not earning the extra cash ...which is what it really boils down to. I ll stress again, overtime or RDW or whatever else you may want to call it is entirely voluntarily. Same for guards.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I'm not saying Arriva/ Northern are blameless, just that a significant amount of the blame should be shouldered by the DfT and Network Rail. If the electrification had been done on time then the private TOC would have had more time to come up with a robust timetable, more time to arrange staff/ training etc.

I'm agnostic on these things but I don't buy the argument that, because the DfT and Network Rail have mucked up in Lancashire the answer to the problem must therefore be complete control of the railway by the DfT and Network Rail.

But this is typical of the DFT.

They are in the luxurious position of dictating everything behind the scenes to the TOC and when something goes wrong getting none of the flack because Joe Public thinks that everything is down to the train operator and the DFT have no involvement.

Unfortunately the problem with the current system is not so much that privatisation is bad in my view, it's that the current system allows the DFT to take all of the control and make all of the decision and never get the blame for any decisions they actually make.

As I said before, the DFT strategy is effectively to privatise all of the blame and turn up for a few photo ops when there is good news to be had and issue a few press releases. When there is bad news they're so MIA that you'd wonder if a search party should be set-up.

If you were someone working in the DFT right now you'd be laughing your head off seeing all these private companies getting the blame for your cock ups, delays and blunders whilst you sit in the background relaxed because nobody is really focusing on you for your own part.