Northern's Problems in the North West

[superkev]

Now how about the union offering to rescue Northern by allowing there members to work rest days as previous for say 6 months. Good politics me thinks and shows they really do care about their passengers.
K

 

[td97]

Now how about the union offering to rescue Northern by allowing there members to work rest days as previous for say 6 months. Good politics me thinks and shows they really do care about their passengers.
K

No, instead the union has announced strikes in mid June to show they really don't care about passengers
(Admittedly not ASLEF)

 

[Silverdale]

I don't see the DfT's position as luxurious.

It's just as much a prisoner of the complex and convoluted way that private operators are contracted to run passenger services as the private operators themselves.

While it's tempting to try and determine which decisions by which actors has led to the shambolic introduction of a major timetable change, I find the road always leads back to the fundamental flaws in the franchising structure. Franchises are let as though they are free standing independent operations, but as we have seen so graphically they are highly interdependent, whether it is sharing space and time on the infrastructure, sharing the pool of rolling stock or sharing the knowledge and skills of their workforce.

 

[Overspeed110]

Now how about the union offering to rescue Northern by allowing there members to work rest days as previous for say 6 months. Good politics me thinks and shows they really do care about their passengers.
K

But what if Northern don't want drivers to work rest days?
Maybe because the fines they pay for cancelled trains mounts up to less than they have to pay drivers to work their rest days to run a full service because they don't have enough drivers?
I'd say Northern dont care about their passengers, they lose less money by providing a terrible service and they couldn't care less.

 

[northwichcat]

But what if Northern don't want drivers to work rest days?
Maybe because the fines they pay for cancelled trains mounts up to less than they have to pay drivers to work their rest days to run a full service because they don't have enough drivers?

If what a certain Tony Miles has said is true ASLEF want a rest day agreement and Northern want a rest day agreement but ASLEF want a considerably higher financial incentive for working rest days than they used to have and Northern can't afford to pay that much. (Northern do have a staffing related costs cap set by DfT.)

 

[B&I]

If what a certain Tony Miles has said is true ASLEF want a rest day agreement and Northern want a rest day agreement but ASLEF want a considerably higher financial incentive for working rest days than they used to have and Northern can't afford to pay that much. (Northern do have a staffing related costs cap set by DfT.)

Well if that's true, and if RDW costs less than employing enough drivers to manage without RDW (which logically, it must to make the bother worthwhile), doesn't that suggest that the DfT has capped staffing costs at a level which does not permit the services specified in the franchise agreement to be run ?

 

[Moonshot]

Well if that's true, and if RDW costs less than employing enough drivers to manage without RDW (which logically, it must to make the bother worthwhile), doesn't that suggest that the DfT has capped staffing costs at a level which does not permit the services specified in the franchise agreement to be run ?

Or put another way....it's another example of the franchise being micromanaged by the DFT.

 

[jayah]

So if you are on a set of 3 earlies and they are say 8hrs, 6hrs and 7hrs and they are replaced by 3*7 hour training days then the balance is equalised

I appreciate you may benefit from road learning but it is also possible to lose out.

Same as getting a 9hr 58 job off a 7 hr spare

You get paid for it but it is still an extra 2hrs58 at work

Swings and roundabouts

Also 7hrs might just be on the west there are 3 sets of t and cs within ARN now AFAIA

You get paid for it that is the point.

 

[Tringonometry]

No, instead the union has announced strikes in mid June to show they really don't care about passengers
(Admittedly not ASLEF)

'Not ASLEF' and therefore utterly irrelevant to the post it's in reply to.

 

[northwichcat]

Well if that's true, and if RDW costs less than employing enough drivers to manage without RDW (which logically, it must to make the bother worthwhile), doesn't that suggest that the DfT has capped staffing costs at a level which does not permit the services specified in the franchise agreement to be run ?

Not if new drivers can be recruited for less than the new RDW rate ASLEF are trying to get.

 

[RickSanchez]

You get paid for it that is the point.

This idea of a 7hr training day is really bugging you isn’t it?!

You don’t get paid overtime to road learn

You get given a set number of trips to fit in during a shift

If you are on a set of six shifts and are road learning on them all, it is highly unlikely every shift could be replaced with an 8.45 shift without going over the average hours for that part of the roster

A 7 hr shift is a standardised shift which removes that problem

I would also expect that if you looked across a rostered link you would not be able to find many, if any blocks of weeks where all the shifts could be replaced by 8.45 shifts but could be replaced by 7hours quite easily (7.5 or 8 might also work but anymore is a push)

 

[jayah]

This idea of a 7hr training day is really bugging you isn’t it?!

You don’t get paid overtime to road learn

You get given a set number of trips to fit in during a shift

If you are on a set of six shifts and are road learning on them all, it is highly unlikely every shift could be replaced with an 8.45 shift without going over the average hours for that part of the roster

A 7 hr shift is a standardised shift which removes that problem

I would also expect that if you looked across a rostered link you would not be able to find many, if any blocks of weeks where all the shifts could be replaced by 8.45 shifts but could be replaced by 7hours quite easily (7.5 or 8 might also work but anymore is a push)

The idea of an employer paying for 35hr and only being able to roster 28hr bugs me.
The idea of mandating training in poor productivity 7hr days bugs me.
Abandoning flexible rostering is certainly not a solution. The rostering should be more flexible not less.

 

[jayah]

If what a certain Tony Miles has said is true ASLEF want a rest day agreement and Northern want a rest day agreement but ASLEF want a considerably higher financial incentive for working rest days than they used to have and Northern can't afford to pay that much. (Northern do have a staffing related costs cap set by DfT.)

So it isn't about safety and fatigue. Who would have guessed?

Thankfully there are provisions against someone giving all drivers £100k and either starting an arms race, or going bust and leaving someone else to foot the bill for ever more.

 

[RickSanchez]

It has already been mentioned here that on Northern, despite having a 4 day week on a 35hr contract which is an 8.75hr working day, when training drivers have a 7hr maximum.

This means from Buxton or Leeds there is scarcely time to get to Blackpool to conduct route learning before having to leave again.

Happy to be corrected if wrong but ex-ATN drivers on east are 4.2 days on 35 hour week so would be an 8h20 shift and have 8hr training days so not as big a difference as west side

Also I believe Leeds-Blackpool is only expected 1 round trip per day as you still need booking on and notice reading time and have to have DBC within shift so even a 10hour shift you would struggle to get 2 trips in

As I say happy to be corrected if above is wrong

 

[RickSanchez]

The idea of an employer paying for 35hr and only being able to roster 28hr bugs me.
The idea of mandating training in poor productivity 7hr days bugs me.
Abandoning flexible rostering is certainly not a solution. The rostering should be more flexible not less.

How would you make it more flexible and also ensure al the diagrams at every depot are covered as well as ensuring compliance with working hours and breaks

As I have said you if you want to send a driver from Leeds to Blackpool they will do one trip per day whether they are rostered 8.45 or 7 hours

You also will not be able to replace a full working week with 8.45hours and stay within the average hours as some blocks of work are 6 days

 

[jayah]

Happy to be corrected if wrong but ex-ATN drivers on east are 4.2 days on 35 hour week so would be an 8h20 shift and have 8hr training days so not as big a difference as west side

Also I believe Leeds-Blackpool is only expected 1 round trip per day as you still need booking on and notice reading time and have to have DBC within shift so even a 10hour shift you would struggle to get 2 trips in

As I say happy to be corrected if above is wrong

Notice reading time before spending 2hr travelling passenger Leeds - Preston...

 

[RickSanchez]

Notice reading time before spending 2hr travelling passenger Leeds - Preston...

Absolutely it is part of the expected duties

You will be in control of a passenger train! (You do realise you may actually be expected to drive during route learning?!) which is why all applicable working hours and DBC’s are mandated

 

[Andyh82]

But this is typical of the DFT.

They are in the luxurious position of dictating everything behind the scenes to the TOC and when something goes wrong getting none of the flack because Joe Public thinks that everything is down to the train operator and the DFT have no involvement.

Unfortunately the problem with the current system is not so much that privatisation is bad in my view, it's that the current system allows the DFT to take all of the control and make all of the decision and never get the blame for any decisions they actually make.

As I said before, the DFT strategy is effectively to privatise all of the blame and turn up for a few photo ops when there is good news to be had and issue a few press releases. When there is bad news they're so MIA that you'd wonder if a search party should be set-up.

If you were someone working in the DFT right now you'd be laughing your head off seeing all these private companies getting the blame for your cock ups, delays and blunders whilst you sit in the background relaxed because nobody is really focusing on you for your own part.

This is why I can see Grayling making the grand gesture of stripping Arriva of the franchise, as thats what all the poorly informed public want, he'll make a hard line statement in the commons about Arriva 'getting it wrong' and then he and the DfT will be off the hook because he's done something.

The cancellations etc will of course continue, but will be excused then as someone has been blamed, heads have rolled, and it'll be assumed that whoever takes over will be 'better'

 

[jayah]

Absolutely it is part of the expected duties

You will be in control of a passenger train! (You do realise you may actually be expected to drive during route learning?!) which is why all applicable working hours and DBC’s are mandated

But you are only learning the bit after Preston?

 

[RickSanchez]

But you are only learning the bit after Preston?

And?! That is still a live line and you still have to read all the notices and travelling pass is still part of the working diagram and counts towards your hours and you will still be driving a train at some point with actual passengers on it

 

[jayah]

And?! That is still a live line and you still have to read all the notices and travelling pass is still part of the working diagram and counts towards your hours and you will still be driving a train at some point with actual passengers on it

But if you aren't driving until Preston why do you need a reading allowance before getting on a train and sitting on it for 2hr? If there is the regular driver, qualified for Blackpool, driving the train as usual until then, there doesn't seem to be a need for this. I don't doubt that is what the agreement says, it is just another example of how ludicrous and inflexible the whole thing is. As you are only learning the new Preston - Blackpool layout, not back to Leeds a 10hr shift would be worth 3-4 7hr jobs.

 

[RickSanchez]

But if you aren't driving until Preston why do you need a reading allowance before getting on a train and sitting on it for 2hr? If there is the regular driver, qualified for Blackpool, driving the train as usual until then, there doesn't seem to be a need for this. I don't doubt that is what the agreement says, it is just another example of how ludicrous and inflexible the whole thing is. As you are only learning the new Preston - Blackpool layout, not back to Leeds a 10hr shift would be worth 3-4 7hr jobs.

Have to read all the safety notices and speed restrictions and sign for wons / pons and any other items before taking control of a train

It is not acceptable to say you don’t need to do this as there is another driver in the cab who ‘should’ have read the notices

I know Leeds Blackpool is 1 trip not sure how if they still manage just the 1 trip Preston-Blackpool

The pass part makes up driving hours and unfortunately that takes up a lot of time due to distance

DBC’s are mandatory

As I said earlier ex-ATN I believe are 8hr training day they are also 35/4.2 days or 8h20 as a standard day

Anyway this is going majorly off topic now and I can’t reword what I have said anymore

 

[F Great Eastern]

This is why I can see Grayling making the grand gesture of stripping Arriva of the franchise, as thats what all the poorly informed public want, he'll make a hard line statement in the commons about Arriva 'getting it wrong' and then he and the DfT will be off the hook because he's done something.

The cancellations etc will of course continue, but will be excused then as someone has been blamed, heads have rolled, and it'll be assumed that whoever takes over will be 'better'

That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to be honest.

The DFT are using the operators as a shield, dictating everything behind the scenes and breaking promises and not delivering infrastructure and then pointing the fingers at the operators when something goes wrong, hiding backstage neglecting to say their own part. It's convenient to be able to push the blame to someone else. If they're blaming someone else they're not blaming you. They'll only be too happy to pose for photos in front of new trains though. That's good news. They have to be on stage for that.

I don't think that Arriva come out of this smelling of roses, far from it, but at the end of the day the DFT are happy to let them take a full hit for everything in this whole debacle because it allows them to get off scott free and not only that, but the public are calling for MORE DFT involvement because of some misguided belief that the DFT are being hamstrung by the operators incompetence rather than the other way around.

I often think that it would be interesting to see what would happen if a big operator came out and turned around and went after the DFT through the press and put a few home truths out there about their involvement in some of the industries issues, but I suspect that any operator would know that if they went after the DFT in a big way it wouldn't help them in the future, hence why they keep quiet.

The problem with them is that they are more interested in making sure nobody is blaming them and the way the industry is structured right now and the weight of public opinion believing that everything is under control of the operators allows them to exploit that over and over again and I can't see them stopping anytime soon.

 

[Requeststop]

A friend back home in Preston tells me that the BBC Regional Programme from Manchester has asked again and again for someone from Northern to come onto the programme to talk to the public and they insist on not putting anyone forward to appear (this was as of Friday). Are they still persisting with this attitude of non communication with the travelling public?

 

[Bantamzen]

A friend back home in Preston tells me that the BBC Regional Programme from Manchester has asked again and again for someone from Northern to come onto the programme to talk to the public and they insist on not putting anyone forward to appear (this was as of Friday). Are they still persisting with this attitude of non communication with the travelling public?

The public have been communicated to, the reasons for all this have been released and discussed at length, especially on this and other threads. Until all parties have a recovery plan firmly in place there's probably little else to say at this stage, so appearing on every regional news show to give the same answers to the same questions is of little worth. Better they get on with the main matter if solving the problems than answering to every career journalist hoping for a scoop .

 

[Requeststop]

The public have been communicated to, the reasons for all this have been released and discussed at length, especially on this and other threads. Until all parties have a recovery plan firmly in place there's probably little else to say at this stage, so appearing on every regional news show to give the same answers to the same questions is of little worth. Better they get on with the main matter if solving the problems than answering to every career journalist hoping for a scoop .

Well thats telling me off!

Actually, if any newspaper, radio station or TV programme wants to ask a company questions or wants to ask questions on behalf of the public then they can ask. Reqular refusal, seems to benot wanting to directly answer complaints from the public who, through their fares, and taxes, pay them. It's the public that is inconvenienced. Any answer no matter how many times it is gven is an answer rather than silence or not having the balls to face the public. They don't require every single person within their organisation to solve the problem. The Chairman, Managing Director, Public Relations Guru or whoever should make the time to explain to the fare paying public what the hell has happened, how they intend to solve it, how long it's going to take, and to say if they intend compensating the fare paying public. It's talking to the public that matters and I made no mention of career journalist hoping for scoops.

 

[Bantamzen]

Well thats telling me off!

Actually, if any newspaper, radio station or TV programme wants to ask a company questions or wants to ask questions on behalf of the public then they can ask. Reqular refusal, seems to benot wanting to directly answer complaints from the public who, through their fares, and taxes, pay them. It's the public that is inconvenienced. Any answer no matter how many times it is gven is an answer rather than silence or not having the balls to face the public. They don't require every single person within their organisation to solve the problem. The Chairman, Managing Director, Public Relations Guru or whoever should make the time to explain to the fare paying public what the hell has happened, how they intend to solve it, how long it's going to take, and to say if they intend compensating the fare paying public. It's talking to the public that matters and I made no mention of career journalist hoping for scoops.

Well it wasn't meant to tell you off, just a factual remark about how the public have been told. The problem is these days that the public want and expect a constant stream of information, except of course when its not what they want to hear. And in the current situation this is exactly the case, Northern have explained what has happened and that they are working on it. What's to be gained by some PR person appearing on every individual regional news show and repeating this ad nauseam? That will only agitate people even more.

 

[SSp]

I'm still trying to figure out the actual running northern Preston to Blackpool timetable. Or is it just a case of aiming for the few Virgin services each day to be sure of not being forced on to a bus?

 

[notlob.divad]

This is why I can see Grayling making the grand gesture of stripping Arriva of the franchise, as thats what all the poorly informed public want, he'll make a hard line statement in the commons about Arriva 'getting it wrong' and then he and the DfT will be off the hook because he's done something.

The cancellations etc will of course continue, but will be excused then as someone has been blamed, heads have rolled, and it'll be assumed that whoever takes over will be 'better'

I disagree. Grayling will pin the blame as hard as he can on Network Rail, repeatedly. Tories only are bout cold hard cash, the only reason he pulled the plug on VTEC is they where not paying him the money. He won't do anything with Northern.

And the reason is privatisation. Network Rail's debt is now government debt, and they don't like that. So he wants to farm off the expensive track maintenance. He cannot privatise network rail due to rail-tracks failings so he will farm it off to the TOCs and call it vertical integration.

Therefore any mud he can make stick to Network Rail, he will in a cynical attempt to tarnish their public reputation and bolster support for his privatisation plans.

 

[Domh245]

the only reason he pulled the plug on VTEC is they where not paying him the money. He won't do anything with Northern.

Off topic, but they were paying him the money*, it was the very impending threat of them not paying the money that caused premature termination

*The large sums of money being paid bring the problem they were facing.