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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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bramling

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It might be dead in the short term but we've not had the chance to see how it runs when it has the intended number of drivers. The issues were always about delays and how it messes up everything, for other more unexpected and unpredictable reasons.

I suppose the closest we have is a 9xxx train blocking everything at FPK and forcing trains to reverse and losing 20-30 minutes with all the residual delays that brings with it.

Nothing happening now is proof of the timetable being a mistake in itself. It's the fact it wasn't delayed that has caused the problems.

I understand the point, however there are some things which have shown up, in particular that late running increases very heavily with this timetable, and that delays from the southern can and will transmit through the core. We’ve also seen very clearly how delays will very badly hit certain stations - Arlesey and Sandy are the most-quoted examples, but they aren’t by any means the only ones. Likewise how the residual GN services are a bedrock of stability in the dreamworld that is Thameslink. Why would GN users want to risk rerunning this timetable when they’ve seen all this? Why should we trust the people who specified, designed, planned and implemented this failed change programme with their failed “it will work” attitude to try again?
 
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jon0844

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When all the drivers are trained up, they will almost certainly try the new timetable again.
 

bramling

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When all the drivers are trained up, they will almost certainly try the new timetable again.

Bets on how long before and where there will then be a major failure south of the river causing further meltdown?!

Remember that the failure to deliver the current timetable in its full planned form also means the railway has been unusually devoid of trains (some very unusually peaceful evening walks alongside the ECML recently!). Despite this what late running there has been has often increased and spread - it’s not hard to find on RTTT examples of services which have left St Pancras 10 late and then arrived at Peterborough or, especially, Cambridge 25+ late, with or without recovery measures which then cause further inconvenience. It doesn’t help that the layovers at these places aren’t wonderful.
 

Skimble19

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I understand the point, however there are some things which have shown up, in particular that late running increases very heavily with this timetable, and that delays from the southern can and will transmit through the core. We’ve also seen very clearly how delays will very badly hit certain stations - Arlesey and Sandy are the most-quoted examples, but they aren’t by any means the only ones. Likewise how the residual GN services are a bedrock of stability in the dreamworld that is Thameslink. Why would GN users want to risk rerunning this timetable when they’ve seen all this? Why should we trust the people who specified, designed, planned and implemented this failed change programme with their failed “it will work” attitude to try again?
Yes it's a major relief to anyone between Arlesey and Peterborough that the GN services have been able to operate largely cancelation free - without them many stations would have had almost no services at all for entire evenings on some days...! Even on days where TL is running with gaps of 1-4 hours in services the GN trains have been able to stop additionally at places such as Arlesey and Sandy to provide some form of service; it's just a shame they're peaks and evenings only!
 

mmh

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Just wait 'til it's all working perfectly and then the inevitable ECML OHLE problem happens.

I poo-poohed a friend years ago for his cynicism over e.g. "it means any problem in Brighton can now spread even further", but I'm afraid I think he had a very good point in hindsight.
 

Bornin1980s

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I was planning to use one of the new services on 27 and 29 July (st Pancras to Horsham, connecting with an LNER service). How is that one doing? And, would the tickets also be valed on my alternative route (tube plus Southern, via Victoria)?
 

Minstral25

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I understand the point, however there are some things which have shown up, in particular that late running increases very heavily with this timetable, and that delays from the southern can and will transmit through the core. We’ve also seen very clearly how delays will very badly hit certain stations - Arlesey and Sandy are the most-quoted examples, but they aren’t by any means the only ones. Likewise how the residual GN services are a bedrock of stability in the dreamworld that is Thameslink. Why would GN users want to risk rerunning this timetable when they’ve seen all this? Why should we trust the people who specified, designed, planned and implemented this failed change programme with their failed “it will work” attitude to try again?

It is complete concern to us in the South that the delays caused by Great Northern and the BedPan are disrupting our services significantly, it is to such a point that the Southern services are currently a paragon of reliability and have few delays compared to before the change. In fact Southern's reliability seems to have improved immensely.

Don't forget GN aren't the only people who suddenly had Thameslink forced upon them,

It may of course be an illusion as when the Thameslink service goes from 25% of planned service as it currently runs to 100% everything might fall apart
 

sefton

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News this evening - Delay Repay can definitely be claimed against any train shown on the RailPlan2020.com website timetables, even if there is an "unadvertised cancellation" on the day.

Was it ever uncertain and where is the official announcement?
 

Downthelane

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Utter disgrace and meltdown at Finsbury Park with two trains due to use core having no driver. The Horsham service has finally diverted to KGX after a wait for 45 minutes.
 

Hearadh

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Southern mainline in trouble with an over-running possession between Salfords and Gatwick Airport blocking half the platforms. Thames link trains that are operating now delayed up to 50 minutes at present.
 

sefton

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Utter disgrace and meltdown at Finsbury Park with two trains due to use core having no driver. The Horsham service has finally diverted to KGX after a wait for 45 minutes.

I was on that same train (as the earlier one was a secret cancellation).

Utter shambles.

Only bonus is it looks like another free day of travel as highly unlikely to be any better this afternoon.
 

Skimpot flyer

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Utter disgrace and meltdown at Finsbury Park with two trains due to use core having no driver. The Horsham service has finally diverted to KGX after a wait for 45 minutes.
this one ?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64291/2018/06/07/advanced

so a train is allowed to leave Peterborough in the full knowledge the driver would not be able to take it beyond Finsbury Park???
A train occupying one of only three up platforms in the height of the peak for 47 minutes is unacceptable. With the knock-on effects to the rest of the service, surely it would have been better (for the greater good) to have just cancelled this service?
 

NorthKent1989

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The thing I always found bizarre about Thameslink itself is that when the project for expansion was first launched way back in 1991, the terminals in the north were pretty much set in stone, Kings Lynn was dropped a while ago, but the routes in the South always seemed uncertain and were changed around constantly up until 2016!

Only Brighton and Sevenoaks seemed to be set in stone, but it was constant swapping and changing, unlike Crossrail, the decided route was Shenfield to Maidenhead/Reading with branches to Heathrow and Abbey Wood (possibly Gravesend) since the 1990s/early 2000s at least, where as the “finalised routes” have swapped and changed so much over the years I’ve lost count, first Dartford via Bexleyheath and Sidcup was considered, then they were dropped in favour of going via Greenwich and Woolwich instead, then all the Dartford routes were dropped altogether citing conflicting moves only for them to reintroduce the Dartford via Greenwich option to Rainham Kent, years later ignoring the conflict moves issue all in the name of; as one poster put it “a panic to send the trains somewhere or anywhere” for example

The issue with the timetable is indeed because of journey times increasing in some extreme cases, when trains do run that is, sure you can get to far flung places like Cambridge or St. Albans without changing for the tube to another London terminal to catch another train, but what’s the point if your going to be calling at every stop or omitting some useful stops for that matter.

As I have said South Eastern routes should be routed via E&C leaving the South Central routes to London Bridge, even if it does mean less tph because at this stage I’m not confident Thameslink can deliver 24tph through the core in the peak.
 

Tunnel Bore

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Southern mainline in trouble with an over-running possession between Salfords and Gatwick Airport blocking half the platforms. Thames link trains that are operating now delayed up to 50 minutes at present.
Failed tamper on the up-fast between Gatwick and Horley. 66773 was coupled up ready to drag it north when I went by (40 late).
 

Taunton

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Horton economical with the truth :
He rejected claims the company did not have enough drivers to work the new timetable.
"We have sufficient drivers, but where drivers are available to run these services is mismatched," Mr Horton said
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44388190

He may have "sufficient drivers", but they are not trained to run on the revised routes.
 

malc-c

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Well for now my daughter is using the bus between Stevenage and WGC. As she hadn't used her monthly season ticket she took proof of the use of the bus to get to work on Monday and got a full refund. The 4 week season ticket on the bus saves her around £40, but naturally under normal circumstances takes her longer to get to work, but she is more or less guaranteed to get a seat (unlike the trains).

I see that the head of Govia has said he won't resign.... shame !
 

jon0844

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Well for now my daughter is using the bus between Stevenage and WGC. As she hadn't used her monthly season ticket she took proof of the use of the bus to get to work on Monday and got a full refund. The 4 week season ticket on the bus saves her around £40, but naturally under normal circumstances takes her longer to get to work, but she is more or less guaranteed to get a seat (unlike the trains).

I see that the head of Govia has said he won't resign.... shame !

Getting to WGC is a sensible move, as it means you have the Moorgate stoppers that nearly always run without problem. Coming back, travelling to FPK is a good move than using King's Cross and stressing out.

The obvious downside is that the trains are slow and when it's hot, not a great place to be.. but you're at least moving.
 

the Rat

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I disagree. Even if it had worked perfectly people would still be complaining. Why? Not because they don't want improved services, but for masses of people both on the north side and the south side the new timetable arrogantly threw away direct trains between numerous places that had been set in stone for decades with some nonsense PR that you'd be able to go across London without using the Underground (which an enhanced service would have done anyway) and get to new places direct despite them taking twice as long as they did.

The great failure of Thameslink 3000 is nobody having decided what it was actually for. After how long it was finally approved then the money spent and yet there were still "consultations" about routes and last minute changes to them late last year? It's a complete farce.

If the point of it was a high capacity tube-like route through the core, fine - decide some fixed routes that will feed into it with suitable turnaround capacity that aren't a ridiculous distance away. Instead what we've ended up with is a sham of "oh god, we've got to send all these trains somewhere"

But then if it was about maximising use of capactity through London you wouldn't dream of putting 8 car trains through those narrow platformed stations and turning them into interchange stations, surely? Oh wait.

Couldn't agree more. It was such a risk to dismantle almost everything timetabled before and introduce a completely new set of times for almost every route. Far better to have slowly and carefully augmented what you already had because then, if any particular addition doesn't work, you've still got a 'basic' tometable that does. But I guess there must be a logical reason why that wasn't attempted...
 

700007

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I see that the head of Govia has said he won't resign.... shame !
I can't see why he would. Loads of people would love a £500,000+ p/a salary, free travel and pension and all they have to do to earn that is single-handedly screw over thousands of commuters every day and provide an empty apology on live TV every now and then.
 

jellybaby

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so a train is allowed to leave Peterborough in the full knowledge the driver would not be able to take it beyond Finsbury Park???
Could there have been a driver change planned at Finsbury Park but that driver was then delayed elsewhere or otherwise unexpectedly unavailable?
 

Fred26

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Getting to WGC is a sensible move, as it means you have the Moorgate stoppers that nearly always run without problem. Coming back, travelling to FPK is a good move than using King's Cross and stressing out.

The obvious downside is that the trains are slow and when it's hot, not a great place to be.. but you're at least moving.

His daughter works in Welwyn.

But yes, the inners are generally working well.
 

the Rat

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I can't see why he would. Loads of people would love a £500,000+ p/a salary, free travel and pension and all they have to do to earn that is single-handedly screw over thousands of commuters every day and provide an empty apology on live TV every now and then.

Yeah, you're right, but there did used to be something called 'an honourable resignation' - people holding high-ranking public office or heading large corporations would jump rather than be pushed after errors of judgement or massive incompetence.

Nowadays those that fill these roles, like Horton or 'Failing' Grayling, have no sense of shame.
 

bramling

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I can't see why he would. Loads of people would love a £500,000+ p/a salary, free travel and pension and all they have to do to earn that is single-handedly screw over thousands of commuters every day and provide an empty apology on live TV every now and then.

One of the really shocking things about all this is the way GTR seem completely detached from reality. It’s bad enough that this has happened in the first place, but how on earth could GTR and Horton not have known on the eve of the change that things weren’t going to work? Incompetence or lies, it’s one or the other.

Its certainly the case that some people should be being held accountable for this shambles - but it’s hard to pin down who, especially for a project which has been in the planning for very many years.

As for Horton himself, it’s interesting to observe how everywhere he has been there seem to have been issues during his tenure. If RailSham2020 is anything to go by then it’s not hard to see why.
 
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David Sinnett

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Southern mainline in trouble with an over-running possession between Salfords and Gatwick Airport blocking half the platforms. Thames link trains that are operating now delayed up to 50 minutes at present.

and the knock on north of the core meant the 8.01 Bedford to Gatwick was canned at West Hampstead Thameslink. Why there?
A 12 coach train of passengers then trying to get on the delayed 8 coach Orpington. Why not carry on through the core where most passengers would disembark and have an option for further travel?
 

bramling

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Couldn't agree more. It was such a risk to dismantle almost everything timetabled before and introduce a completely new set of times for almost every route. Far better to have slowly and carefully augmented what you already had because then, if any particular addition doesn't work, you've still got a 'basic' tometable that does. But I guess there must be a logical reason why that wasn't attempted...

Agree with all of this. The logical reason presumably was some people in Thameslink Programme were sufficiently delusional and erroneously confident in their own ability to think “it will work”. I really hope the constant chaos doesn’t lead to something worse happening - someone falling off a packed overcrowded platform or a crush in a station.
 

the Rat

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I really hope the constant chaos doesn’t lead to something worse happening - someone falling off a packed overcrowded platform or a crush in a station.

Absolutely, that would be adding tragedy to farce. But it is a real possibility, especially as commuters are likely to become more desperate and angry as this situation drags on.
 
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Hearadh

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Wish me luck for the (planned) 1254 from Peterborough to Gatwick Airport...... :)
Don't want to put the dampers on this but, if the stock for this train is formed off 9J26 12.39 arrival from Horsham it was cancelled and no spare stock onoh and might be better going for a contingency plan.
 

Stampy

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Don't want to put the dampers on this but, if the stock for this train is formed off 9J26 12.39 arrival from Horsham it was cancelled and no spare stock onoh and might be better going for a contingency plan.

According to RTT site, it's still running - 9J35

And I do have a contingency plan - catch the next VTEC train into London!!!
 
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