Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[sefton]

Yes, but one of the obvious problems is that while direct trains get cancelled, there are still connecting trains that could be taken but are very busy and which may not be possible to board. Therefore, it is difficult to register the delay to the next direct train.

There are no connecting trains if you want to go to or from a station north of Hitchin.

So anyone wanting to use one of the daytime half hourly off peaks which has been removed from the timetable then they are automatically 30 mins delayed, even in the unlikely event the next train runs. So until these trains are reinstated people who were impacted could submit the same claim day after day.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Whilst I have the utmost sympathy for those on the Greenwich line who have suffered from the absence of the Thameslink services, I don't understand the claim that Greenwich is " by far more important an area than Sidcup or New Eltham". How are the latter less "important" ? I looked up the ORR station exit / entry figures for 2016/17. Sidcup has 3.04 million a year, New Eltham 2.23 million. Greenwich is 2.81 million not far behind Abbey Wood (2.98 million). Sidcup and New Eltham are by far the busiest stations on the Sidcup line (if you exclude Hither Green whose 3.37 million will be shared with Orpington line services). I havent calculated total passenger stats for the whole Greenwich line versus Sidcup line, but accept it's likely that the Greenwich line is higher. But - bearing in mind that Greenwich has the DLR and Jubilee at North Greenwich, but Sidcup area has no tube or DLR anywhere nearby - I fail to see how Greenwich is somehow more "important ".

Greenwich is important in terms of touristy value (or words to that effect) with Greenwich Park, the Cutty Sark, The Queens House, the Market, the university, the o2 centre/The Air Line, good bus links to other parts of South London, river services etc, I don’t mean to sound snobbish so please don’t think that I am, after all you could just as easily use Blackheath or Maze Hill for Greenwich Park, depending on which entrance your using on that occasion.

You do raise good points about usage at stations though an they’re pretty high numbers, and surprisingly not far behind Greenwich, certainly higher than Maze Hill right? Crayford isn’t far behind either in terms of usage if i am correct?

 

[Abpj17]

no... the first blockade was for building St Pancras International... and was definitely still GoVia Thameslink... I remember there was outrage that GoVia lost the franchise to First after all the plaudits they had received for their successful management of the blockade

was the blockade actually difficult though? No running through the core, simple bays for trains to terminate into, significantly less risk of knock on effects etc.

...The Bedford - London passengers have no access to the underground north of Stanmore/Edgware....

GTR have no interest in providing a service. Their customer helpline has no idea where Harlington or Leagrave or Flitwick are. ...

1) It probably rather unfair, but St Albans have rush hour options given proximity to Hatfield etc. but that service is a mess too

2) Just ugh. I live in Leagrave and it's awful. Morning now seems to be 2tph instead of 4 to 5. Most late evenings seem to be 1ph.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Who would pass up the opportunity to relax and enjoy all of the retail opportunities that Dartford station has to offer? People watching at this major transport hub whilst soaking up the ambience? Without Thameslink you would miss this vital opportunity to enrich your life with this experience.

I’ll get my coat...

I doubt very much Higham will be sharing your sense of humour somehow.

 

[farleigh]

Been in Italy for three weeks.

How's this new timetable shaping up then?

 

[gingerheid]

Been in Italy for three weeks.

How's this new timetable shaping up then?

We've got to the anger / grieving stage of mourning.

 

[Minstral25]

Been in Italy for three weeks.

How's this new timetable shaping up then?

Timetable - what timetable!! Totally pointless

London Bridge to Redhill - Monday evening was
16:51 Cancel
17:00 Cancel
17:21 Cancel
17:30 Cancel
17:51 Cancel
18:00 Cancel
18:21 Cancel
18:30 Cancel
18:51 Cancel
19:00 Cancel
19:21 Cancel
19:30 Cancel
19:51 Cancel
20:00 Cancel
20:21 Cancel
20:30 Cancel

 

[NorthKent1989]

It appears that the Medway route has gone hourly after the 1011 from Rochester, hopefully the train at 0941 will run okay!

 

[DaveN]

The Bedford - London passengers have no access to the underground north of Stanmore/Edgware. There isn't even the last ditch option of an EMT train north from St Pancras to Luton or Bedford and a taxi, because those trains have been sacrificed on the altar of Railplan 2020..

For some of us who use those stations, the GN line used to provide another plan B when things went wrong on Thameslink but obviously Arlesey and Sandy are in an even worse mess. And even if all the drivers were trained appropriately, if some thing goes wrong in the core that Plan B will probably be just as messed up.

 

[Antman]

I doubt very much Higham will be sharing your sense of humour somehow.

Shouldn't HS trains be stopping at Higham until this fiasco is sorted out?

 

[Robin Edwards]

For some of us who use those stations, the GN line used to provide another plan B when things went wrong on Thameslink but obviously Arlesey and Sandy are in an even worse mess. And even if all the drivers were trained appropriately, if some thing goes wrong in the core that Plan B will probably be just as messed up.

I had luxury of being able to travel to London via Sandy or Bedford and until this latest melt-down, both would run reliable services in and out. Now both routes are buggered to coin a phrase and I won't be using either for the foreseeable future being fortunate not to have paid for a season ticket. I have to say that travelling for free when you end up getting full refunds for cancelled trains home late at night, is a new concept of doing business and making any money.
Car sharing options are being arranged in the Company I work since employers are losing patience and Mr Grayling isn't likely to listen where folk start losing their jobs due to repeat lateness.

 

[Robert Symonds]

Shouldn't HS trains be stopping at Higham until this fiasco is sorted out?

I mentioned this last week.Its ridiculous.I asked South Eastern why and they said it would cause more delays.I pointed out that there was so much dwell time in the highspeed that it probably wouldn't cause an issue.They don't care though so run a bus to Strood and then get on the very same highspeed that then passes through Higham.You couldn't make it up.They really should be forced to stop at Higham.

 

[SECR263]

Timetable - what timetable!! Totally pointless

London Bridge to Redhill - Monday evening was
16:51 Cancel
17:00 Cancel
17:21 Cancel
17:30 Cancel
17:51 Cancel
18:00 Cancel
18:21 Cancel
18:30 Cancel
18:51 Cancel
19:00 Cancel
19:21 Cancel
19:30 Cancel
19:51 Cancel
20:00 Cancel
20:21 Cancel
20:30 Cancel

Went to East Croydon yesterday and noticed that all the timetables which were in rotating racks have now all gone. Not being an I phone user I find this removal not helpful.

 

[zoneking]

These timetables are works of fiction.

 

[ScotGG]

Greenwich is important in terms of touristy value (or words to that effect) with Greenwich Park, the Cutty Sark, The Queens House, the Market, the university, the o2 centre/The Air Line, good bus links to other parts of South London, river services etc, I don’t mean to sound snobbish so please don’t think that I am, after all you could just as easily use Blackheath or Maze Hill for Greenwich Park, depending on which entrance your using on that occasion.

You do raise good points about usage at stations though an they’re pretty high numbers, and surprisingly not far behind Greenwich, certainly higher than Maze Hill right? Crayford isn’t far behind either in terms of usage if i am correct?

Greenwich and Abbey Wood saw their lowest annual usage for over 10 years though due to various work. London Bridge rebuild work cut Greenwich's peak service heavily since 2016 and Abbey Wood was closed every weekend for about 2 years due to station rebuilding.

Both were often above 3 million before.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Shouldn't this thread be moved to "Allocations, Diagrams and Timetables?"

 

[NorthKent1989]

Shouldn't HS trains be stopping at Higham until this fiasco is sorted out?

You would think so wouldn’t you, it’s really bad how they’re being treated.

 

[Robin Edwards]

Apologies if this has been said already and I haven't seen it in the 54 pages of comments, but I have three Qs........
Who would have made the decision and is ultimately accountable in enforcing new Timetable & routes with new trains where only a small number of drivers were known to have been trained? (this doesn't in my mind require a full ministerial enquiry as it should have been a basic part of the assessment planning made prior to introducing Change)
Was this decision forced upon TOC by Government because of the huge investment in rolling stock already made?
Why was / is it not possible to back-out the Changes made and revert to old timetables that were already working from Bedford and Peterborough without the latter going to anywhere south of KX, until full compliment of train drivers are made available?

 

[jimbo99]

Was at East Croydon around 2.30pm yesterday (going to Clapham Junction) and noticed this on the display at platform 2 where a Thameslink was running late.

Service delayed because an unusual number of trains are requiring maintenance at the same time

I didn't note it word for word because my train was pulling into platform 1 and I didn't have time to wait for it to go around again. But the above is pretty close.

 

[kw12]

Apologies if this has been said already and I haven't seen it in the 54 pages of comments, but I have three Qs........
Who would have made the decision and is ultimately accountable in enforcing new Timetable & routes with new trains where only a small number of drivers were known to have been trained? (this doesn't in my mind require a full ministerial enquiry as it should have been a basic part of the assessment planning made prior to introducing Change)
Was this decision forced upon TOC by Government because of the huge investment in rolling stock already made?
Why was / is it not possible to back-out the Changes made and revert to old timetables that were already working from Bedford and Peterborough without the latter going to anywhere south of KX, until full compliment of train drivers are made available?

On Monday the Transport Secretary stated (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-timetabling) that:

"it is also clear to me that both Northern and GTR were not sufficiently prepared to manage a timetable change of this scale either. GTR did not have enough drivers with the route knowledge required to operate the new timetable. And neither Northern nor GTR had a clear fall-back plan.

In GTR’s case, the process of introducing the new timetable was overseen for the last 2 years by an Industry Readiness Board, made up of Network Rail, ORR and the train operating companies and an Independent Assurance Panel.

Both of these groups have told me that they had been given no information to suggest that the new timetable should not be implemented as planned – albeit with some likely early issues as the timetable bedded down.

These bodies were set up specifically to ensure that all parts of the rail network – Network Rail, GTR, other train operators were ready to implement these major timetable changes – it should have been clear to them that some key parties were not ready. They did not raise this risk.

The department received advice from the Thameslink Readiness Board that while there were challenges delivering the May 2018 timetable, namely the logistics of moving fleet and staff, a three week ‘transition’ would allow minimal disruption. My officials were assured the other mitigations in place were sufficient and reasonable.

Indeed as few as 3 weeks before the timetable was to be implemented GTR themselves assured me personally they were ready to implement the changes."

 

[Taunton]

Who would have made the decision and is ultimately accountable in enforcing new Timetable & routes with new trains where only a small number of drivers were known to have been trained? (this doesn't in my mind require a full ministerial enquiry as it should have been a basic part of the assessment planning made prior to introducing Change)

If Transport Secretary Grayling's comments in his House of Commons Question Time yesterday are anything to go by, his senior DfT staff, and ultimately himself, did ask the specific "Readiness Team" at GTR if all was in place and looked good, and was told Yes. If it transpires that this was indeed what was said (and he described a face-to-face direct question he had with Horton just a couple of weeks beforehand) then it is a serious question about at what stage the untruths (because that is what they were described as) were started.

I know we are giving Grayling a hard time here (and it is his job ultimately) but he came as close as you can with Parliamentary language to saying that he had been persistently and directly lied to. It's here in video of the Parliamentary session (about 20 minutes).


https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/b00320b1-dbf...

The whole thing about the "timetable" being unworkable also seems to be a mis-statement, because as far as I can tell there has been no attempt to run the "full" timetable yet, with full core service per hour, because a large number of timetabled services are never even attempted on a given day, as there are insufficient qualified staff in place to run it. It's not the timetable, it's the staffing.

Has anyone heard a word from Jo Johnson MP (Boris' brother), Minister for Rail under Grayling, who you would have thought would be key in all this, but we have not seen him at all. He has a considerable background as a financial journalist, including head of Lex at the Financial Times, a column which daily makes penetrating, witty, and often withering but accurate comments on business matters and companies (and often the best bit of the FT that many turn to first). He should be the sort of person to get to the bottom of the story in a flash.

 

[jon0844]

If Transport Secretary Grayling's comments in his House of Commons Question Time yesterday are anything to go by, his senior DfT staff, and ultimately himself, did ask the specific "Readiness Team" at GTR if all was in place and looked good, and was told Yes. If it transpires that this was indeed what was said (and he described a face-to-face direct question he had with Horton just a couple of weeks beforehand) then it is a serious question about at what stage the untruths (because that is what they were described as) were started.

I know we are giving Grayling a hard time here (and it is his job ultimately) but he came as close as you can with Parliamentary language to saying that he had been persistently and directly lied to. It's here in video of the Parliamentary session


https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/b00320b1-dbf...

Wouldn't it be the job of a readiness team to be checking that being told everything was okay really did mean that? By doing checks and audits as necessary, and asking specific questions about any obvious concerns that they should have had.

 

[AM9]

Apologies if this has been said already and I haven't seen it in the 54 pages of comments, but I have three Qs........
Who would have made the decision and is ultimately accountable in enforcing new Timetable & routes with new trains where only a small number of drivers were known to have been trained? (this doesn't in my mind require a full ministerial enquiry as it should have been a basic part of the assessment planning made prior to introducing Change)
Was this decision forced upon TOC by Government because of the huge investment in rolling stock already made?
Why was / is it not possible to back-out the Changes made and revert to old timetables that were already working from Bedford and Peterborough without the latter going to anywhere south of KX, until full compliment of train drivers are made available?

One observation of your post:
"... enforcing new Timetable & routes with new trains ... " Have any delays related to the new timetable been attributed to the use of 'new trains'? In this thread there are posts from regulars who before the timetable changes have repeatedly criticised the class 700s (which are the only new trains on GTR services), but have (sometimes grudgingly) praised the trains' exceptional ability to clear vast numbers of delayed passengers from crowded platforms. In my view, that is saying that other rolling stock would not have performed so well at a time when the real need was to transport as many passengers as possible.
Cynically some might concoct a conspiracy theory that the DfT et al, engineered the timetabling problems to create public gratitude for "the huge investment in rolling stock already made" in the 700s' people-moving capabilities. I think that would be a theory too far though!

 

[physics34]

......deleted

 

[Kanrakuq]

National Rail's Arlesey depatures page now says:

Rail replacement buses may be in operation on this route to supplement Great Northern and Thameslink train services. Please note there is no specific timetable for these buses and you are required to speak to station staff for additional information.

Unfortunately, Arlesey's station information page says:

Information services - opening times Monday - Friday 06:30 - 12:30

But remember to plan ahead and all that, everyone!

P.S. Watching the buses taking an age to reverse in, I have to say I am impressed how well Govia are managing to not only delay rail commuters, but drivers too. It takes some serious skill to cause this much disruption and annoyance.

 

[radamfi]

Apologies if this has already been answered, but why is the London Bridge to Epsom service advertised as being run by Thameslink and not Southern?

 

[swt_passenger]

Apologies if this has already been answered, but why is the London Bridge to Epsom service advertised as being run by Thameslink and not Southern?

It was said when first spotted to have been a data upload accident, which the TOC hasn't fixed yet. Also affects the relatively small number of SN trains to/from Guildford.

 

[mmh]

Apologies if this has already been answered, but why is the London Bridge to Epsom service advertised as being run by Thameslink and not Southern?

Lots of services were entered with an incorrect operator code at the timetable change, and they've still not fixed them. Although to give GTR the benefit of the doubt for once, there's things I'd prefer them to fix first

 

[jon0844]

Lots of services were entered with an incorrect operator code at the timetable change, and they've still not fixed them. Although to give GTR the benefit of the doubt for once, there's things I'd prefer them to fix first

Almost every train on GN is now marked Thameslink (and in many cases the data on coach length is now missing). Moorgate trains are still Great Northern so you could argue that GN services are running well and it's all the fault of Thameslink!

 

[SECR263]

These timetables are works of fiction.

Apologies. I was referring to the fact that all the rotating stands on each platform which held the pre 20 May timetables have all been physically removed. The spaces now stack disabled access ramps so if we had working TT's they could not know be displayed.