Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[physics34]

I have only one question.... after TWO seperate long term blockades of the "core" where the TOC was praised for managing to perform to a high standard why has GTR made such a mess of the timetable changes... which co-incide with it NOT having a blockade? is it because the TOC had got too complacent with basically running 2 seperate networks and has "forgotton" how to run a through route?

They have minimal staff in many departments, they have merged many of them and hence the franchise is way too big

 

[AM9]

I have only one question.... after TWO seperate long term blockades of the "core" where the TOC was praised for managing to perform to a high standard why has GTR made such a mess of the timetable changes... which co-incide with it NOT having a blockade? is it because the TOC had got too complacent with basically running 2 seperate networks and has "forgotton" how to run a through route?

Wasn't the first blockade of the core (when the TL St Pancras station box was built) during FCC's reign?

 

[GordonT]

Dreadful level of service Southbound from St.P at the moment:
1700 Brighton (Cancelled); 1702 Rainham (Cancelled); 1712 Sutton (Cancelled);
1715 Horsham (Cancelled); 1720 Brighton (operating); 1725 East Grinstead (Cancelled);
1727 Sutton (operating); 1732 Rainham (Cancelled).

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Wasn't the first blockade of the core (when the TL St Pancras station box was built) during FCC's reign?

no... the first blockade was for building St Pancras International... and was definitely still GoVia Thameslink... I remember there was outrage that GoVia lost the franchise to First after all the plaudits they had received for their successful management of the blockade

 

[frediculous]

Travelped past Gillingham depot about 5pm today. Two 700s sitting there, while services are cancelled. What a waste of resources.

 

[NorthKent1989]

So the 1811 to Rochester/Rainham from Blackfriars is going to be the last service on this route for the day according to this, this is beyond unreasonable especially for Higham did the Medway/Higham really lose it’s semi fasts just for this????

 

[Hadders]

Travelped past Gillingham depot about 5pm today. Two 700s sitting there, while services are cancelled. What a waste of resources.

Only 2 trains? You want to take a look at Hornsey depot.

 

[BRX]

Only 2 trains? You want to take a look at Hornsey depot.

Or Dollands Moor sidings...

 

[Mag_seven]

Two 700s sitting there, while services are cancelled.

Were there two drivers with the required traction and route knowledge sitting there as well?

 

[infobleep]

I had hoped to get the 8:25 Wimbledon to Sutton train this morning but surprisingly it departed on time without me. I was on a delayed South Western Railway service, which is partly why I missed it. The other reasons was not being at the back of the train to get up the stairs first.

The 18.19 was two minutes late leaving Sutton but was able to make up some of the lost time but only a minute or so.

I was trying to make a very tight connection at Wimbledon and the train north was late. However my connection is also late at Clapahm Junction so I might make it. I try to avoid tight connections like this but the 18:09 Southern service from Sutton was cancelled due to a train fault.

If the new timetable hope to improve reliability and reduce delays then so far it's not fully managed that but maybe it's coping better than before, assuminf staff are in the right place with the right competencies. Unfortunately neither of those is true.

 

[FOH]

So the 1811 to Rochester/Rainham from Blackfriars is going to be the last service on this route for the day according to this

Looks like it’ll fail PPM royally

 

[JonathanH]

Tonight, GTR diverted the 1803 / 1833 Southern London Bridge to Sussex Coast services via Redhill.

Both picked up around 10 minutes of delay coming via Redhill itself and then more to Three Bridges.

There isn't much option but to use these services to fill the gaps as everything else out of the low level turns off by Purley.

Seems a difficult trade off between offering no service to Redhill and delaying everyone else using these services.

 

[SA_900]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.

 

[AM9]

no... the first blockade was for building St Pancras International... and was definitely still GoVia Thameslink... I remember there was outrage that GoVia lost the franchise to First after all the plaudits they had received for their successful management of the blockade

So it was. Thanks for the correction.

 

[infobleep]

Were there two drivers with the required traction and route knowledge sitting there as well?

How about using the rolling stock on services formed of 8 carriages? Would that be feasible.

 

[Stampy]

Which is how they were booked to run as per the WTT.
In addition to that there looks to be a lot of platform changes aswell... 1A70 had to be held outside waiting for platform 5 to clear as its normal platform 1 was already occupied. There would of been nothing gained by letting the 1A70 past the 9J23.
I cannot see anything wrong with what's been done there to be honest.

Not complaining, just thought it odd that they slowed an "express train" down to a crawl up to a red signal - before letting the 9J23 Horsham train out onto the 2 track section....

 

[Daz28]

So much for journey opportunities! You can’t even get a train past Dartford let alone the core or Luton!

Who would pass up the opportunity to relax and enjoy all of the retail opportunities that Dartford station has to offer? People watching at this major transport hub whilst soaking up the ambience? Without Thameslink you would miss this vital opportunity to enrich your life with this experience.

I’ll get my coat...

 

[bramling]

I agree with a lot of what you've said. I'd add that no manager wants to tell his superior that something isn't working, so they go on saying that it's going to be OK to the point where it's too late to arrange any alternative action.

When these problems started much was said about trains being in the wrong place. If that was the problem it shouldn't take many days to get them where they're needed. If the real problem is that not enough drivers are trained for new routes and rosters then there's no quick solution. Could the previous timetable be reinstated? Maybe the knock-on effects on other services would mean a new round of chaos, possibly affecting other areas and other operators.

Actually I feel a bit sorry for Chris Grayling. I realise that that statement should probably be in the Controversial Railway Opinion thread! The Secretary of State for Transport isn't there to manage the railway system, which is the job of the TOCs, who've got it wrong in this case. Some of the Conservative MPs who've strongly criticised him are probably upset that the privatised system is making a mess of things when they believe it's always better. Plus, of course, their constituents are angry, and although some have big majorities, others do not, and a gradual build-up of dissatisfaction over one thing and another can lead to enough voters changing their minds that individual MPs lose their seats, and another party gets a majority.

As someone has already said, an inquiry isn't going to help anyone's journey to work over the next few days or even weeks. I doubt that there's enough for Grayling to get a grip of. On the information available, it seems that the best that can be hoped for is a reduced timetable that works reliably, and allows enough driver training to take place for the proposed t.t. to be introduced in several weeks' time.

I don't know if the franchises for GTR and Northern could be terminated because of these problems. Who would replace them? The problem of an insufficient number of retrained drivers would still be there. Perhaps one outcome of what's happening will be a revision of the franchise system.

Grayling is in the wrong job at the wrong time. This failed programme has been in the planning for many years, including under previous governments let alone previous transport secretaries. This doesn’t change the fact that Grayling has showed himself to be particularly clueless, but it would have likely been a farce whoever was in charge. The Thameslink Programme has been characterised by an “it will work” attitude. One particular poster who no longer posts on here typified this.

The simple reality is the specification of this project has taken things too far in one particular direction - and now we see the result of this, which is a total shambles and a total meltdown of the service. To think that what we have is the scaled-back descoped “phased” version of what was originally proposed to arrive this year. What planet is Thameslink Programme living on?

 

[Steve Harris]

Grayling is in the wrong job at the wrong time. This failed programme has been in the planning for many years, including under previous governments let alone previous transport secretaries. This doesn’t change the fact that Grayling has showed himself to be particularly clueless, but it would have likely been a farce whoever was in charge. The Thameslink Programme has been characterised by an “it will work” attitude. One particular poster who no longer posts on here typified this.

The simple reality is the specification of this project has taken things too far in one particular direction - and now we see the result of this, which is a total shambles and a total meltdown of the service. To think that what we have is the scaled-back descoped “phased” version of what was originally proposed to arrive this year. What planet is Thameslink Programme living on?

Probably the same one as all politicians that are MP's !!

Totally not in touch with the real world.

I agree it may not be Grayling's fault but when he was head of the Ministry of Justice he made a lot of Prison service staff redundant as part of 'savings'. And since then a lot of prisons have had riots. (And how much extra has that cost?)

Frankly, everything he seems to touch ends up in a worst state than before he comes into contact with it.

Edit. Added.

I also notice that he is hiding from the media.

Horton is likewise. As a tv reporter from the BBC turned up at the GTR office in London today and was told he would be seen only for a very frosty lady asking nee telling him to 'wait outside' as he was unwelcome in reception.

Where we go from here ? My late mother would say ' bang some heads together'!

 

[JonathanH]

Re: above

Does anyone know why Redhill is always so badly affected? cc @tsr

Redhill is a victim of four things:
* being on a loop off a main line with eight intermediate stations of varying importance but also with enough commuter usage to justify stopping services
* having such high demand that having trains from the coast stop there leads to overcrowding of those services
* having the main line cross over its line between the two junctions so that pathing fast trains means more than one conflict
* sharing tracks at East Croydon with routes that have slow turn outs - ie at South Croydon and Purley

Add to that the fact that the Peterborough to Horsham service is one of the most affected services by the current problems and they have at the same time cut out Bedford to Gatwick services in the evening peak and it makes for a significant problem.

One of the other problems on the Southern network as a whole is what happens at East Croydon with the need to serve Victoria and London Bridge from everywhere - if one terminal is running with delays and the other not trains end up in the wrong order - that adversely affects faster trains on a stopping line than trains which are all non stop to the next station 17 miles away.

I could go on.

 

[Class465fan]

And they reckon that the new 24tph is going to work? They can't even run the current services properly at the moment.

 

[DVD]

I can bet you if by some miracle the fasts get restored and the Thameslink is re routed to the Sidcup line I’m sure he will be the first to complain about the loss of his fasts



I genuinely think he is serious, some people think we’re over exaggerating things, the fact is is that even people in Greenwich and Deptford are becoming extremely unhappy with Thameslink now that the honeymoon is over basically before it even begun, they’ve been down to just 4tph in some cases, contrary to what @Selkent Fellow believes, Greenwich is by far more important an area than Sidcup or New Eltham and cannot simply have 4tph or this basic service



So does that mean Tottenham Hale no longer needs its own fasts then? I say that because TH has the Victoria Line which is quick into Central London, three stops to Kings Cross I believe? What you have to understand is that the fasts were never really about serving Abbey Wood or Woolwich Arsenal or Lewisham, not in the last three decades at least, when prior to that Woolwich Arsenal was the only Greater London station on this service (occasionally Lewisham and Greenwich) but primarily it was there to give those further out a faster service into London, the stops added later on were for various reasons; Abbey Wood was added because of Thamesmead mainly (and a small part to do with some lobbying from the residents of leafy Nuxley/Upper Belvedere according to my grandfather) you mention lots of homes being built, but Thamesmead was and is an entirely new town not just a housing estate, which happened to lie mostly within Abbey Wood.

Please be a bit more understanding to those who are struggling to get to work and getting about in general (Higham for instance) and also see that this isn’t really working well for a lot of commuters and travelers on the line.

Whilst I have the utmost sympathy for those on the Greenwich line who have suffered from the absence of the Thameslink services, I don't understand the claim that Greenwich is " by far more important an area than Sidcup or New Eltham". How are the latter less "important" ? I looked up the ORR station exit / entry figures for 2016/17. Sidcup has 3.04 million a year, New Eltham 2.23 million. Greenwich is 2.81 million not far behind Abbey Wood (2.98 million). Sidcup and New Eltham are by far the busiest stations on the Sidcup line (if you exclude Hither Green whose 3.37 million will be shared with Orpington line services). I havent calculated total passenger stats for the whole Greenwich line versus Sidcup line, but accept it's likely that the Greenwich line is higher. But - bearing in mind that Greenwich has the DLR and Jubilee at North Greenwich, but Sidcup area has no tube or DLR anywhere nearby - I fail to see how Greenwich is somehow more "important ".

 

[mmh]

Who would pass up the opportunity to relax and enjoy all of the retail opportunities that Dartford station has to offer? People watching at this major transport hub whilst soaking up the ambience? Without Thameslink you would miss this vital opportunity to enrich your life with this experience.

I’ll get my coat...

Many a true word said in jest. South of the river I've heard people remark, including friends of mine, that you can now go to Cambridge or Peterborough direct. And to be fair, if it worked perhaps that would be good. At the weekend.

I bet on the north side it's a bit different with people wondering where on earth Horsham, Littlehampton or Rainham actually are and why they can't just get to London any more

 

[the Rat]

Grayling is in the wrong job at the wrong time.

Absolutely. In fact I would go as far as to say he is the wrong man in ANY job!!

 

[gingerheid]

The fact very few trains are running is worrying enough. But that can be fixed.

What's possibly even more worrying is how late many of the trains that are running have been. That's not going to work if there's more intensive use of not just the core, but also the ECML, and even on the Royston branch.

 

[Daz28]

Whilst I have the utmost sympathy for those on the Greenwich line who have suffered from the absence of the Thameslink services, I don't understand the claim that Greenwich is " by far more important an area than Sidcup or New Eltham". How are the latter less "important" ? I looked up the ORR station exit / entry figures for 2016/17. Sidcup has 3.04 million a year, New Eltham 2.23 million. Greenwich is 2.81 million not far behind Abbey Wood (2.98 million). Sidcup and New Eltham are by far the busiest stations on the Sidcup line (if you exclude Hither Green whose 3.37 million will be shared with Orpington line services). I havent calculated total passenger stats for the whole Greenwich line versus Sidcup line, but accept it's likely that the Greenwich line is higher. But - bearing in mind that Greenwich has the DLR and Jubilee at North Greenwich, but Sidcup area has no tube or DLR anywhere nearby - I fail to see how Greenwich is somehow more "important ".

All true, and don’t forget that those figures for the Sidcup line are limited by the relatively poor service that was previously offered. With improved services, those numbers are bound to increase.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I'd add that no manager wants to tell his superior that something isn't working, so they go on saying that it's going to be OK to the point where it's too late to arrange any alternative action.

.

The so called 'can do' mentality overlooks the realities and practicalities and managers who do tell it as it is are accused of being negative and letting the "team" down when they say something isn't going to work. Many old school managers have been displaced in favour of the 'yes people' and the resulting mess should lie firmly at their door and of those who employed them.

 

[bramling]

The fact very few trains are running is worrying enough. But that can be fixed.

What's possibly even more worrying is how late many of the trains that are running have been. That's not going to work if there's more intensive use of not just the core, but also the ECML, and even on the Royston branch.

This is exactly the problem. The timetable works fine on paper when everything is on time (and runs!). Unfortunately it will fall apart when delays are introduced - far more likely under Thameslink - which with 2tph services leads to the service becoming highly erratic at many destinations. This is why it will still be a shambles even when enough drivers are available. Politically I think it is dead anyway - the last two weeks have given people a taste of all this. Nothing wrong with giving people the choice of buying-in to Thameslink - but it’s no good for people relying on the service.

 

[The Box Photter]

Many a true word said in jest. South of the river I've heard people remark, including friends of mine, that you can now go to Cambridge or Peterborough direct. And to be fair, if it worked perhaps that would be good. At the weekend.

I bet on the north side it's a bit different with people wondering where on earth Horsham, Littlehampton or Rainham actually are and why they can't just get to London any more

Spot on. As a long-term victim of the first incarnation of Thameslink, then FCC and now this pathetic excuse for a railway, my observation is that the operators (GTR, DfT and Network Rail) have ignored the needs of passengers who rely on Thameslink every day and have no alternative means of commuting into London. The Bedford - London passengers have no access to the underground north of Stanmore/Edgware. We can't just hop on a TfL sponsored bus or go the long way round via Southern or Southeastern. We just have to sit on the platform watching our trains get cancelled. There isn't even the last ditch option of an EMT train north from St Pancras to Luton or Bedford and a taxi, because those trains have been sacrificed on the altar of Railplan 2020.

GTR have no interest in providing a service. Their customer helpline has no idea where Harlington or Leagrave or Flitwick are. The other week, I called to enquire as to why my regular morning train appeared to have disappeared from the Thameslink journey planner app (this was before the meltdown) and the call handler wanted to know whether I was looking to arrive at either Victoria or Waterloo.

I just put the phone down, which is what we should do to GTR, Horton, Grayling and Hendy.

 

[frediculous]

Were there two drivers with the required traction and route knowledge sitting there as well?

That's my point. It's peak hours and rolling stock is sitting idle because there are no drivers to drive it. And that is a terrible situation to be in.