Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
FWIW, there is another solution to this "churn" problem - doors at thirds.
Not purely, though (though it is a good start). There's a similar "churn" problem on their turbostar routes: if I'm going long-distance (eg. Cambridge - Leicester) on a train I know won't be quite full and is three-car, I will aim for the middle coach *even if* I have a reservation on A or C, mainly because the other passengers with reservations (typically reasonably infrequent travellers at the times I'd do such trips) will still take an age to fight their way onto the reserved carriages, whereas I'll just be able to jump onto coach B and plop myself down in seconds. Of course, nothing like comparable to end doors, but still not perfect.FWIW, there is another solution to this "churn" problem - doors at thirds.
The primary reason Guildford trains are there is to maintain route knowledge for the diversionary route via Haslemere. This needs to be retained whatever happens, therefore so do the Guildford (and Bath Spa; Manchester-Cardiff and a few others ) services.If they dump Guildford then there goes the cheaper purchase tickets to Oxford and possibly other stations.
Also I can't see Great Western Railway adding in another service from Guilldford to Reading. It departs Guildford at 6.04. Maybe in the evening they would but currently it's non stop, do they want a non stop service to Guilldford? The non stop works because it's a long distance service.
I'll admit I don't use the service so often because it's often cheaper to go via London, which includes having to help clog up the tube with luggage.
The current North Downs trains are all that luggage friendly either or at least not the one I'm currently on. Still it has more seats.
They shouldn't serve small stations, but should continue to serve places like Aberdeen and Cornwall if/when there is long distance demand. DfT seem obsessed about asking if this or that route would work better in this or that franchise. If the service and stock are the same, some of us struggle to see the point.Had a quick browse before the document disappeared, questions included:
Do you think Birmingham to Nottingham and Leicester should move to the West Midlands franchise?
Should XC stop serving smaller stops, enforce pick up/set down only or opt out of local travelcard products to alleviate crowding around large cities?
Should the once or twice per day destinations be pruned from the network? Examples being Guildford, Bath Spa, Aberdeen, Cardiff via Bristol, Bournemouth, Cornwall too. Expected that local operators will fill in the gaps
Given desire by other operators to run more services on the East Coast beyond Newcastle, should XC stop running one of the services as far? DfT envisage 2 hourly extensions to Glasgow to remain.
Not absolutely essential, as XC maintain route knowledge via Andover without running any passenger services that way.The primary reason Guildford trains are there is to maintain route knowledge for the diversionary route via Haslemere. This needs to be retained whatever happens, therefore so do the Guildford (and Bath Spa; Manchester-Cardiff and a few others ) services.
A Midlands equivalent of TPE. Sounds like a good idea. Even better if they operate loco-hauled services.Would it not be easier to have the cross country "Vomiter" franchise, along with a separate cross country "Central Citylink" 170 operated franchise.
The 170 operated franchise could then take over stuff like the east Midlands Derby to Stoke and Nottingham to Norwich runs and Hereford/Shrewsbury to Birmingham (in Shrewsburys case, split the ATW service there with the current semi fast service combining with Leicester and running 1 Cardiff - Norwich (extended from Nottingham replacing EMT), 1 Hereford - Leicester and 1 Gloucester - Stoke via Derby each hour
The consultation has an interesting question about "churn" when boarding/alighting from stations.
IME most of this is caused by passengers hunting for their reserved seats, particularly infrequent leisure passengers of the sort who've always made up much of the XC customer profile. This crowds the aisles and causes queues in the vestibules and out onto the platforms.
Although I do agree with the comments about people using Crosscountry services for short distance journeys. I travel from Aberdeen to Penzance every day and it really annoys me when you see people using these services between places like York and Bristol. THESE SERVICES SHOULD NOT BE USED FOR SUCH SHORT JOURNEYS!
Where's the like button?Uhhhhh? Are you a human being, or are you one of the trains?
When the refurbished HSTs arrive, and the IEPs, I can't imagine anyone choosing to use a voyager.
The primary reason Guildford trains are there is to maintain route knowledge for the diversionary route via Haslemere. This needs to be retained whatever happens, therefore so do the Guildford (and Bath Spa; Manchester-Cardiff and a few others ) services.
Not purely, though (though it is a good start). There's a similar "churn" problem on their turbostar routes: if I'm going long-distance (eg. Cambridge - Leicester) on a train I know won't be quite full and is three-car, I will aim for the middle coach *even if* I have a reservation on A or C, mainly because the other passengers with reservations (typically reasonably infrequent travellers at the times I'd do such trips) will still take an age to fight their way onto the reserved carriages, whereas I'll just be able to jump onto coach B and plop myself down in seconds. Of course, nothing like comparable to end doors, but still not perfect.
If a train runs at the time people want to travel, they will catch it. The idea that people don't use Voyagers when some other form of rolling stock is available is laughable.
Its too late for me to comprehend at this time of night, but might it be possible to line up the current 2 XCs to be around 20 minutes apart between Birmingham and Sheffield - and add a Sheffield terminator to make 3tph on that stretch?
I use Tamworth station a lot. Why are we asking about cutting services when so many are chronically over crowded? If some of the longer distance services don't stop there, what on earth is going to happen to all the displaced passengers?????? The shorter distance commuter trains are crammed too, with fewer services and fewer coaches.
Bath is part of the Bristol-Westbury-Taunton diversion.Couldn't things like this be covered by route refresh days? To use Bristol depot as an example, they must already have them between Bristol and Swindon (Didcot?), which would cover Bath, and between Gloucester and Newport via Chepstow, which you could also probably fiddle to cover the line via the Severn Tunnel too. Given that XC themselves proposed culling most of these once-a-day services, they must have some solution to keeping up knowledge of them despite the passenger services being withdrawn.
If a train runs at the time people want to travel, they will catch it. The idea that people don't use Voyagers when some other form of rolling stock is available is laughable.
You can just imagine...
Me standing in Oxford and travelling to BHX.
"Oh look, a Voyager, I'll just wait an hour until the next one and see if it's a different unit, hopefully security isn't too busy".
Here is an idea - Note I have not taken pathings, or timings into account, so sorry if it doesn't make practical sense.
1 train per hour between Plymouth and Edinburgh / Glasgow (alternating hourly), with the Glasgow services continuing onto Penzance.
1 train per hour between Bournemouth and Manchester Piccadilly. Alternating 2 times a day via Crewe, to allow a split, for one half to continue to Aberdeen.
1 train 2 per hours between Exeter St Davids to Liverpool Lime Street. (2tp3h, as it would heavily overlap with the via Crewe portion of Bournemouth train, and VTWC / LNWR)
1 train per hour between Southampton central and Newcastle.
1 train per hour between Cardiff central and Nottingham.
Whats moving / changing?
Penzance to Aberdeen has been replaced with the Bournemouth to Aberdeen 2 times daily. To retain a direct XC Scotland link, a train from Penzance to Glasgow will run every 2 hours.
Bournemouth to Manchester / Aberdeen will give a direct Scotland link to stations such as Reading, Southampton, Winchester, and Stafford. This will only run 2 times a day via Crewe, to save time.
Penzance to Manchester has moved to GWR, operating 2 times a day, now in BOTH directions.
Services from Manchester Piccadilly to Bristol have been replaced by Exeter to Liverpool, to give a better Intercity service to Liverpool.
Southampton to Newcastle remains unchanged
Cardiff to Nottingham remains unchanged
Birmingham New Street to Nottingham moves to WMT
Birmingham to Stansted airport moves to LNWR
Birmingham to Leicester moves to WMT
Again, I get this couldn't happen due to pathing constraints, but this is sort of an ideal for me.
Giving GWR a service to Manchester is bonkers. So I also take it Birmingham to Manchester has lost a service? that is never going to wash either. Liverpool to the West Country can be dealt with one change as it stands at New St or Stafford.
And how has Birmingham to Manchester lost a service? I don't see where I've killed it?
Services from Manchester Piccadilly to Bristol have been replaced by Exeter to Liverpool, to give a better Intercity service to Liverpool.
Kenilworth is highly unlikely to get anything, and it can only be served by 4 car trains anyway unless someone forks out to sort the platform out. Same goes for Worcestershire Parkway, will be surprised if any of the long distance stuff ever stops.Kenilworth and Worcestershire Parkway would also get new services.
1ph Manchester Piccadilly - Exeter St David's via Stoke
1ph Manchester Piccadilly - Bournemouth via Stoke and Coventry
1ph Manchester Piccadilly - Stansted Airport via Crewe and Leicester, avoiding Wolverhampton
1ph Liverpool Lime Street - Cardiff Central via Crewe and Bristol Parkway
1ph Edinburgh - Plymouth via Leeds
1ph Hull - Heathrow Airport Terminal 5 via Leeds and Coventry
1ph Nottingham - Cardiff via Gloucester
1ph Nottingham - Birmingham New Street
1ph Birmingham New Street - Leicester
So the current Manchester Bristols still run?
Kenilworth is highly unlikely to get anything, and it can only be served by 4 car trains anyway unless someone forks out to sort the platform out. Same goes for Worcestershire Parkway, will be surprised if any of the long distance stuff ever stops.
So it looks like from that list, Bournemouth, Southampton and York lose a train per hour? What happens to the Newcastle Reading/Southamptons? replaced by the Hull Heathrow? Why avoid Wolves with the Stansted?