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Ideas for future of displaced rolling stock

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Class455

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There were valid reasons for not serving Cat/Tat, so which other services would you replace? No-one is going to be increasing the number of trains through the core anytime soon,

How the heck do your up trains get from Raynes Park to Wimbledon P9? A flat crossing of the SWML fasts and the down slow? There were presumably pretty good reasons for Thameslink (as foreseen 10 years ago) dropping Guildford via Sutton, I cannot think of any valid reason to reinstate it, never mind run via Raynes Park?

With the current timetable, there is a rather large gap between Caterham and Croydon where these TL services could potentially fit. It could also open up new places for customers and they can travel on a direct train without having to change.

As Thameslink serve the Southeastern and Southern network, and operate around a very small section of the SWML, I don't see any reason why a Guildford to Bedford/Luton or even Stevenage service wouldn't work, as passengers would be able to get to new destinations a lot easier. I've always wondered why TL haven't expanded onto the SWML since their purpose is to provide Cross London services from North to South, while Crossrail is in charge of East to West. I am aware that the down services will have to cross all the way to Wimbledon P9 after Raynes Park, but perhaps alterations to the track layout, a bridge or a dive under would solve the issue. This would cost a lot though.
 
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3141

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There is so much stock that's due to be displaced that most of it has no future, at least on railways in the UK.
 

RichJF

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Could the 379s not go to SE with pickup shoes fitted, displacing some of the 375s onto longer Metro/outer suburban work (Sevenoaks/Tunbridge Wells) & thence eliminating Networkers with the 377/5s heading back to SN?

Especially if a new build is authorised for SE Metro services.
 

Bringback309s

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I guess with thameslink imminently running at maximum through the core, the 707's may not be needed, but making them 4-car could be a very useful fleet for lengthening 8 car units in the peak. Then the spare trailers could join the 321 trailers left over from the 320's!
 

D365

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Could the 379s not go to SE with pickup shoes fitted, displacing some of the 375s onto longer Metro/outer suburban work (Sevenoaks/Tunbridge Wells) & thence eliminating Networkers with the 377/5s heading back to SN?

Especially if a new build is authorised for SE Metro services.

If/when the next Kent franchise brings in a replacement metro fleet why would they need the 379s to replace Networkers?

I guess with thameslink imminently running at maximum through the core, the 707's may not be needed, but making them 4-car could be a very useful fleet for lengthening 8 car units in the peak. Then the spare trailers could join the 321 trailers left over from the 320's!

That's made me chuckle!
 

swt_passenger

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I've always wondered why TL haven't expanded onto the SWML since their purpose is to provide Cross London services from North to South, while Crossrail is in charge of East to West. I am aware that the down services will have to cross all the way to Wimbledon P9 after Raynes Park, but perhaps alterations to the track layout, a bridge or a dive under would solve the issue. This would cost a lot though.
Crossrail 2 will (hopefully) eventually deal with SWML suburban capacity via Raynes Park, with its own grade separation. There'd be very little point in adding Thameslink as well.
 

dk1

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Thought the 379s where rumoured for the Corby-St.Pancras or has today's announcement changed that?
 

Class455

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Crossrail 2 will (hopefully) eventually deal with SWML suburban capacity via Raynes Park, with its own grade separation. There'd be very little point in adding Thameslink as well.
Well, since the proposed route doesn't include Guildford, it would still be possible to operate services via the New Guildford Line.
 

swt_passenger

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Well, since the proposed route doesn't include Guildford, it would still be possible to operate services via the New Guildford Line.
What is the problem you are trying to solve? Most people here think that Thameslink has far too many "Southern" routes and destinations anyway.
 

Clansman

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Hi everyone sorry not right good at this but does anyone have a full list of the roljng stock due to come off lease and cascaded
I created one a couple years back but its not been updated since September last year, so there's probably a more up to date one floating about.
 

superkev

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I suppose in a logical world the oldest stock particularly those with dc motors would go for scrap.
Not sure which units retain dc motors.
K
 

D365

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I suppose in a logical world the oldest stock particularly those with dc motors would go for scrap.
Not sure which units retain dc motors.
K

Networkers onwards all use AC motors. Classes 321 (30 units), 442 (18 units) and 455 (SWR units) are being converted to Vossloh AC traction.
 

GW43125

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Networkers onwards all use AC motors. Classes 321 (30 units), 442 (18 units) and 455 (SWR units) are being converted to Vossloh AC traction.

455s are all done now aren’t they?
 

rebmcr

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Networkers onwards all use AC motors. Classes 321 (30 units), 442 (18 units) and 455 (SWR units) are being converted to Vossloh AC traction.

Modern AC conversions using IGBTs or Permanent Magnets might even last longer than newer trains with GTOs.
 

D365

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Modern AC conversions using IGBTs or Permanent Magnets might even last longer than newer trains with GTOs.

Indeed - the Networkers and 323s are all but guaranteed on their way out.
 

bramling

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Indeed - the Networkers and 323s are all but guaranteed on their way out.

Sadly I suspect you’re right with the Networkers (hopefully with the exception of the 365), however I wouldn’t write off the 323s just yet. They offer a couple of features which many other EMUs don’t - high seating capacity for a 3-car train, and excellent performance on stopping services. They would be absolutely perfect for something like Cardiff suburban services if electrified.
 

D365

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323s have IGBTs - they just don't sound like it :)

Good point, but they don’t have a home.

Sadly I suspect you’re right with the Networkers (hopefully with the exception of the 365), however I wouldn’t write off the 323s just yet. They offer a couple of features which many other EMUs don’t - high seating capacity for a 3-car train, and excellent performance on stopping services. They would be absolutely perfect for something like Cardiff suburban services if electrified.

I’m not sad - I’ve sat in a non-365 Networker for all of five minutes at peak time and hated every minute.

We’ve got plenty of rolling stock for new electrification, the issue is we aren’t doing any more of it.
 

Prestige15

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Here are my suggestions but i don't expect it to happen

707 - Moving them to Northern for the Leeds - Doncaster/Bradford etc, Moving the 333's to manchester/liverpool replacing 319's.

458 - Move them to southern southcoast service replacing 313/377

350/2 / 360 - Move them to scotrail convert all to 3 car replacing those 318/320's, The spare coaches could then move to SWR to convert a number of 450's into 5 car concidering they are very similar it possible that could be done. The 5 car 360/2 could also move to Scotrail for its possible Edinburgh - Newcastle commuter. Similar story could be said with 365's with the coaches added on to 465/466's

379 - Move them to Midland Mainline Corby service.


Ex WMT/AGA 170 - Mjority of them could go to EMT Replacing all but 158's sprinters while the others could go to XC maybe Chiltern?

185 - Unless TPE takes over EMT's Liverpool - Nottingham section, They could moved to Wales exclusively for Llandudno - Manchester service or its future East/West rail link

MK4 - convert them to a push pull with 67/68 in a shorter formation (Loco +5/6 MK4+ DVT) Send them to Wales long distance service/EMT Liverpool - Norwich/Cross Country however according to Modern Railways (Volume 75, Number 837) Colchester based MAN is offering to upgrade EMT HST to allow them to work with the mk4's.
 

The Ham

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350/2 / 360 - Move them to scotrail convert all to 3 car replacing those 318/320's, The spare coaches could then move to SWR to convert a number of 450's into 5 car concidering they are very similar it possible that could be done. The 5 car 360/2 could also move to Scotrail for its possible Edinburgh - Newcastle commuter. Similar story could be said with 365's with the coaches added on to 465/466's

The problem with a 5 coach 450 is that you couldn't run it as a trio to make a 12 coach train for use in the peaks (where there's a lot of them), so unless you could limit then to routes where 12 coach trains weren't needed (but then a lot of these don't really need 4 coaches, such as Ascot - Guildford or the Lymington Branch, for most of the day) then they could cause more problems than they solve.

MK4 - convert them to a push pull with 67/68 in a shorter formation (Loco +5/6 MK4+ DVT) Send them to Wales long distance service/EMT Liverpool - Norwich/Cross Country however according to Modern Railways (Volume 75, Number 837) Colchester based MAN is offering to upgrade EMT HST to allow them to work with the mk4's.

Wales is already due to get some, some are due to be used on the GNWR services to Blackpool (both recently announced).

Liverpool - Norwich would be very slow over the fens due to not being able to run using Sprinter speeds. Also this is due to be split into two services over two franchises. With Liverpool - Nottingham possibly going to TPE and run by 185's.

EMT have been told that they need to have bi-modals on their IC services, so either a new loco or they would need to find routes that they could be used on which didn't go into London. Which would likely make such a suggestion unlikely.

EMT have also been told to ensure that they have provision for special events, so there could be scope for a rake or two on a low usage lease to cover Summer Saturday services to Skegness, football matches, events at Donnington Park, etc.

XC are possibly going to be told that they can use the 222's, however it would likely be cheaper for them to get some new 7 coach bi-modals and ditch their four coach units (or reform some to be 5 coach units) to obtain the same capacity. (I previously worked out that the 22x fleet would have to be at least 5% cheaper, probably more likely 10% cheaper, per coach to lease and run than a new fleet to even be in with a chance of competing on cost grounds, with the bigger discount possibly required to cover extra staff costs).

As such a loco and coaches wouldn't be likely, unless as a short term fix whilst the new units were being delivered. However, as soon after they start to arrive XC could start to run more and more services as pairs (at least over the core). Especially given the track access charges for a loco are eye watering, they even are pricy when compared to a 221 when comparing 10 coach trains. It's why most TOC's favour MU's.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Mark 4's kept popping up on different services to act as crowd busters or as short term leases at new franchises to tied them over until their new trains arrive. With several in service their lease costs should also be able to cover keeping the rest of the fleet available for use.
 
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Here are my suggestions but i don't expect it to happen

707 - Moving them to Northern for the Leeds - Doncaster/Bradford etc, Moving the 333's to manchester/liverpool replacing 319's.

458 - Move them to southern southcoast service replacing 313/377

350/2 / 360 - Move them to scotrail convert all to 3 car replacing those 318/320's, The spare coaches could then move to SWR to convert a number of 450's into 5 car concidering they are very similar it possible that could be done. The 5 car 360/2 could also move to Scotrail for its possible Edinburgh - Newcastle commuter. Similar story could be said with 365's with the coaches added on to 465/466's

379 - Move them to Midland Mainline Corby service.


Ex WMT/AGA 170 - Mjority of them could go to EMT Replacing all but 158's sprinters while the others could go to XC maybe Chiltern?

185 - Unless TPE takes over EMT's Liverpool - Nottingham section, They could moved to Wales exclusively for Llandudno - Manchester service or its future East/West rail link

MK4 - convert them to a push pull with 67/68 in a shorter formation (Loco +5/6 MK4+ DVT) Send them to Wales long distance service/EMT Liverpool - Norwich/Cross Country however according to Modern Railways (Volume 75, Number 837) Colchester based MAN is offering to upgrade EMT HST to allow them to work with the mk4's.
Are you proposing using the 707s as 5 car? Would require a lot of infrastructure work with Shipley being the biggest problem particularly if you are including Skipton services.

The chances are that all of the 379s would not see work on Corby services even if the service is doubled, the ITT allows secondhand emus for Corby but 350/379 will be slightly awkward if first class provision is provided especially on 12 car units, do you provide a first class catering service in 3 separate sections of the train? Make first class just a different seat? another option could be to remove first class completely from these services but that may not be acceptable to DfT. I feel that Corby would work better with 6car 20m emus that can be paired up for peak periods.

AGA 170s are going to KAW franchise, the expectation is that a number of WMT 170s will end up at Northern as the most affordable and cost effective option for their 18x2car 170 or equivalent units. There would be a remainder however for use elsewhere.

KAW rolling stock provision is decided so 185s will unlikely be drafted in.

It appears the EMT HSTs will require upgrading to work with mark IV carriages (other options could be available but unlikely due to time restraints) to see the franchise through to new built stock being fully implemented by the end of 2023.
 

dk1

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AGA 170s are going to KAW franchise, the expectation is that a number of WMT 170s will end up at Northern as the most affordable and cost effective option for their 18x2car 170 or equivalent units. There would be a remainder however for use elsewhere.

So glad you said that as first I've heard. So funny because the carpet detectives at work where convinced 201-208/270-273 where heading to XC because of the colour of the carpet even though I constantly point out it's nothing like there's.

Hope they look after them across the border. Been good units since new & a personal favourite of mine to drive & travel in.
 
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