Incident at Loughborough Junction (18/06)

[silverfoxcc]

Overspeed

But they are 'criminals' as such. It is not a 'victimless' crime, someones property has been defaced and it will cost them, or the insurance company time and money to put it right.
Take for example your car, Assume i am a new breed of graffiti artist called a key painter. One night every panel on your car is scratched with 'beautiful' etchings

Tell me how you would view that in the morning when you see it? Awk of art. Or your life screwed up by some unthinking idiot?

Think on chum, they dont clear up their mess. They are long gone. If they were to be giving a sentence that involved, months, not hours, of 8 hour days and at socially unacceptable times to them, ie screw up their lives for a while, they MIGHT, think twice about it but i doubt it. They are in the classification of people who nick cable. Some die in the attempt.
It is a shame that they have been killed, but it was their way. Would some on here view them any differently if they had fallen several hundred feet if they thought that tagging high rise buildings is a 'good idea' and lost their footing?

If they had guidance they might well have been artists who could sell their work, they chose not to

 

[Antman]

Do you spend much time hanging around crematoriums saying "actually ... " at the end of the eulogies and then following it with a torrent of abuse? How can you possibly get so angry about a family having the temerity to love their child? What on earth is wrong with you?

I dislike grafitti and trespassers as much as the next man, but what's the value in being so utterly vile about it?

Exactly, they were kids up to mischief, it's not as if they were out mugging old grannies or anything.

 

[Mintona]

Christ, they’re definitely old enough to know better. Absolute muppets.

 

[Master29]

It seems strange to me that anyone should be expected to express sympathy for dead trespassers they don’t know personally, who may or may not have been graffiti artists, but certainly should not have been on the tracks in the middle of the night.

Sympathy for most people is reserved for those they know personally rather than abstract internet discussions about the actions of strangers. What would be the point of me saying I feel sympathy? It would be completely meaningless and certainly wouldn’t change the results of what happened this morning.

I agree with this. P

Overspeed

But they are 'criminals' as such. It is not a 'victimless' crime, someones property has been defaced and it will cost them, or the insurance company time and money to put it right.
Take for example your car, Assume i am a new breed of graffiti artist called a key painter. One night every panel on your car is scratched with 'beautiful' etchings

Tell me how you would view that in the morning when you see it? Awk of art. Or your life screwed up by some unthinking idiot?

Think on chum, they dont clear up their mess. They are long gone. If they were to be giving a sentence that involved, months, not hours, of 8 hour days and at socially unacceptable times to them, ie screw up their lives for a while, they MIGHT, think twice about it but i doubt it. They are in the classification of people who nick cable. Some die in the attempt.
It is a shame that they have been killed, but it was their way. Would some on here view them any differently if they had fallen several hundred feet if they thought that tagging high rise buildings is a 'good idea' and lost their footing?

If they had guidance they might well have been artists who could sell their work, they chose not to

Precisely...and if they think they`re so invincible they`ve been given a very large dose of cold water. Ultimately, this is the only lesson by which these guys can learn. Fear always the most honest of all emotions. Fine, if you love the danger but you can`t expect much sympathy when it goes wrong. This is not comparable to child murderers of mad gunmen I know but it`s still an offence end of....

 

[eslcma]

This is indeed another tragic event on our railways and unfortunately we know it won't be the last. Probably 100s of trespassers on our network every week, seen or unseen. Risk taking, adventure, unwitting or known will continue. No amount of fencing will prevent trespass completely, the human factor will always take over if someone wants to get on the track . I feel for the families of the deceased and the persons involved in the aftermath, they are most certainly innocent. With an average of over 1 trespasser death each week (excluding suicide) this is a national problem which rarely makes the news.

 

[Adlington]

With an average of over 1 trespasser death each year (excluding suicide) this is a national problem which rarely makes the news.

If this figure is correct, it's not exactly front page news.

 

[86206]

They should not have been there, they should not have been vandalising...should have/could have/would have...Too many possibilities!

Regardless of thoughts on the 3 individuals activities its tragic that they have died, just as its tragic for the driver involved not knowing that he/she had hit them, tragic as it is for the people dealing with the aftermath. Some comments have been awful in a lot of mainstream media & sadly on this board too, but alas nowadays that is to be expected. This whole sorry episode won't go away quickly that is for sure, and already the graffiti names of the 3 are being written in memorial. Thats graffiti, that is getting the name up. Its not the first time & won't be the last time someone perishes on the railways. Oh and why should I know? Simple. As an ex member of rail staff who has directly been involved in a fatality , and also someone who lost a friend in similar circumstances many years ago it doesn't leave you in any circumstances. As I said, sad times indeed

 

[TUC]

How did they access the tracks? Have NR been failing to maintain their boundary fences, walls etc?

Except that we should not have to have our taxes wasted on such fences. Roads do not need to be fenced off, neither should the railwsy.

 

[duncanp]

What on earth is wrong with you?

I dislike grafitti and trespassers as much as the next man, but what's the value in being so utterly vile about it?

I don't think that there is anything "wrong" with me, nor is it "vile" to point out that someone is not very intelligent for wandering along a railway track without permission or safety training, and that spray painting graffiti on railway property is vandalism, and a criminal act.

The article quoted in post no 143 from the BBC website really p***es me off, as it glamorises "...graffiti artists...." (= vandals).

These "..graffiti magazines.." and websites ought to be ashamed of themselves for encouraging criminal acts, and enticing young men to take lethal risks to their lives.

It is of course sad that three young men have died, and there is nothing wrong with a family loving their child. But if you really love your child, you have to be able to teach him or her the difference between right and wrong, whatever their age.

And for the record, I do not hang around crematoria saying "actually" at the end of a eulogy.

If the sight of a coffin being lowered into the ground or disappearing behind a curtain isn't enough to make people think, then nothing else will.

To quote the song "..How many deaths will it take till he knows that too many people have died..."

 

[CeeJ]

My sympathies are with their families. Hopefully this highlights the risks associated with playing on the railway amongst the general public, particularly those likely to do things like this in future.

They are in the classification of people who nick cable.

I hate graffiti as much as the next person, but they're not in the same category here. People nick cable as part of organised crime, damaging/stealing very high value equipment to make money. People who graffiti are just kids/young adults up to no good, but not committing any egregious crime.

 

[A Challenge]

I hate graffiti as much as the next person, but they're not in the same category here. People nick cable as part of organised crime, damaging/stealing very high value equipment to make money. People who graffiti are just kids/young adults up to no good, but not committing any egregious crime.

What difference is there, both require costly repairs, its just that the person might make money from selling cable then?

 

[philthetube]

I don't see graffiti artists as criminals. Some graffiti is very pleasing on the eye. Yes it's illegal, but so is doing 35mph in a 30.
Some people need to get a grip on what proper criminals actually are.
Absolute tragedy for everyone involved.

Lets make it legal then, loads of people being hit by trains, loads of trains cancelled because of painted windscreens, lights or because of offensive graffiti, but all ok because it is not really criminal.

 

[Robertj21a]

This is indeed another tragic event on our railways and unfortunately we know it won't be the last. Probably 100s of trespassers on our network every week, seen or unseen. Risk taking, adventure, unwitting or known will continue. No amount of fencing will prevent trespass completely, the human factor will always take over if someone wants to get on the track . I feel for the families of the deceased and the persons involved in the aftermath, they are most certainly innocent. With an average of over 1 trespasser death each year (excluding suicide) this is a national problem which rarely makes the news.

I don't think '.......one trespasser death per year' and '......this is a national problem' really go together in the same sentence !

 

[Overspeed110]

LOL, lighten up guys,
Banksy can come and paint my car/house anytime

 

[Overspeed110]

So what kills more people then?

Graffiti artists or dickheads in cars?

 

[eslcma]

I don't think '.......one trespasser death per year' and '......this is a national problem' really go together in the same sentence !

Sorry, it is over 1 death per week. I was going to write over 50 per year and changed my mind. Updated the original post now.

 

[eslcma]

If this figure is correct, it's not exactly front page news.

Sorry, it should have read over 1 death per week.

 

[Robertj21a]

Apparently the walls of the station itself have now been daubed with R I P ..........in spray paint.

 

[All Line Rover]

So two of the families have come out and said that they were vandalising the railway (or as they said - "painting graffiti late at night in a particularly dangerous place" and that "He was an intelligent and wonderful boy who had so many close friends" and that he was a "beautiful artist").

Of course, what they could have instead said was that their son was horribly taken from them because he was carrying out a dangerous and illegal activity and used it was a warning to others about the dangers. Sadly it looks like they are taking the "my poor darling" approach instead of admitting that it was his dangerously and illegal actions which killed him.

Mr Carrasco had contacted his parents Isabel and Carlos at 22:00 BST on Sunday to say he would be back in time for dinner.

So at least some of the family members of these three men were aware of and condoned what the men were doing - presumably, having approved of their 'beautiful art' since the men were (young) teenagers? Not exactly undeserving of criticism, are they? [EDIT: I'm referring to the vandals as adults because they were all over the age of majority and over the age of 'youthful indiscretion'.]

Seems some people have no notion whatsoever of sensitivity - Tory Brian Cooke has pissed off quite a few people by referring to the deceased as ‘common scum’.

I just don’t see the need to... sully... the dead.

Do you [duncanp] spend much time hanging around crematoriums saying "actually ... " at the end of the eulogies and then following it with a torrent of abuse? How can you possibly get so angry about a family having the temerity to love their child? What on earth is wrong with you?

I dislike grafitti and trespassers as much as the next man, but what's the value in being so utterly vile about it?

I think Brian Cooke's comment was absolutely unnecessary...

...Some comments have been awful in a lot of mainstream media & sadly on this board too, but alas nowadays that is to be expected...

Cf. post #81.

Brian Cooke's comment is 'unnecessary' just as all expressions of sympathy for the deceased and their family members are 'unnecessary'. What is unnecessary is attempts to suppress expressions of opinions contrary to one's own.

...they were kids up to mischief, it's not as if they were out mugging old grannies or anything.

I think part of the reason for the lack of sympathy, on the part of some, regarding the deaths of these graffiti vandals is the considerable inherent danger in the type of criminal damage they were committing, which the vandals would have been well aware of even if they had suppressed such thoughts. If a graffiti vandal was vandalising a private home, or even a memorial, and was stabbed to death by a householder or a member of the public, these 'unsympathetic' people might have more sympathy in respect of the death, having been caused by the voluntary intervention of a third party.

The article quoted in post no 143 from the BBC website really p***es me off, as it glamorises "...graffiti artists...." (= vandals).

Yet another example, along with the main BBC London article consisting of such quality journalism as "One Instag*** user described..." and "A Twit*** user wrote...", of why I have a dim opinion of BBC News.

 

[LOL The Irony]

So at least some of the family members of these three men were aware of and condoned what the men were doing - presumably, having approved of their 'beautiful art' since the men were teenagers? Not exactly undeserving of criticism, are they?

Only one was a teenager. The other 2 were 23(?). But yeah they shouldn't have been there and the families are only promoting their actions, sadly causing a Streisand Effect.

 

[yorkie]

I don't see graffiti artists as criminals.....

I see vandals as criminals; if you don't then you are entitled to your opinion but we are entitled to have a dim view of it.

Images on line, that I do not consider it helpful to share, show the scale of the vandalism done by this gang to trains and other property.
So I feel that they may correctly be called criminals.

Agreed

So what kills more people then?

Graffiti artists or dickheads in cars?

Ludicrous comparison that is utterly meaningless. Vandals might not kill people but such behaviour is clearly unacceptable to any reasonable person.

Perhaps you are fortune not to be on the receiving end of anti-social/criminal behaviour/acts? Perhaps you like your environment to be a dump? I don't think it is right that the rest of us should suffer from anti-social behaviour just because it might not affect you.

 

[bnm]

So at least some of the family members of these three men were aware of and condoned what the men were doing.

How can you draw that conclusion from what's reported?

 

[All Line Rover]

How can you draw that conclusion from what's reported?

If the family or families who were reported didn't condone the activities, I would have expected them to make brief mention of this when giving their 'eulogies' to the BBC.

 

[LOL The Irony]

An ample opportunity to warn people of the dangers of trespassing on the railway was missed and once again it has to be the job of network rail and the BTP.

 

[Busaholic]

I'd just taken up bookselling in the late 1980s when the publishers Thames and Hudson brought out the first in what proved to be a series of books on 'Graffiti Art'. This was a 'celebration' (their words) of New York graffiti specialists, particularly those adorning subway trains and property. I took a very dim view of the publication, and had a letter published in the trade Bookseller magazine urging other booksellers not to stock it, because it glorified vandalism, but I had little support. The London Underground was beginning to experience much the same problem, though admittedly on a lesser scale, at the time.

It is sad that three young men have now lost their lives in pursuit of such a degraded venture: if it serves as a warning to others not to indulge, and has an effect, then something better (if not good) may have come out of it.

 

[Deepgreen]

Graffiti vandals (not "artists" in cases where their activities are criminal) cause huge damage to the railway environment in every urban area and beyond. Trespassing and criminal damage are crimes and so they are criminals. They also know very well (and glorify themselves in) the danger and 'outlaw' status they think it gives them. Therefore, the penalty they must expect at some point is serious injury or death. The parents may or may not have known what was going on and they are to be pitied. The parallel activities of train surfing, 'chicken' and so on also cause huge delays and some injuries/deaths. The entire youth culture around which this revolves is a sad indicator of modern times, but parents and youths alike must be held to account, rather than applying the lame excuse of it being all society's fault, etc.

The glamourisation of criminality is a curse, and the further blatant spraying of graffiti in memory of the dead is another sop to the criminals.

 

[farleigh]

It is very interesting to see the number of people who feel that the people who died are criminals and so therefore they deserved what they got. I have broken speed limits in my car - as have you - and so I am a criminal and presumably if I crashed and died you would have no sympathy, and nor should I offer you or your family any were it to happen to you.

I dislike graffiti and understand the financial implications. It is wrong. But what logic allows those - presumably without sin - on here to judge and condemn three young men?

Twisted point of view really isn't it?

 

[bnm]

If the family or families who were reported didn't condone the activities, I would have expected them to make brief mention of this when giving their 'eulogies' to the BBC.

Yes of course. Its really easy to to look at the bigger picture the day after your son has been killed.

Not mentioning that what their sons were doing was illegal does not automatically mean they are condoning their actions.

And they were not giving "eulogies" to the BBC. They've released statements to the media, with the help of bereavement trained officers from the BTP and Met.

Give them time to grieve. You may well see relatives of the deceased campaigning on the issue in the future, doing what they can to prevent further rail trespass deaths. That's for another day.

An "I blame the parents" attitude serves no purpose whatsoever.

 

[farleigh]

If the family or families who were reported didn't condone the activities, I would have expected them to make brief mention of this when giving their 'eulogies' to the BBC.

Do you really think the day after they have been told their child has been killed that they should be looking to decrease the amount of graffiti on walls?
Jeesh

 

[Busaholic]

It is very interesting to see the number of people who feel that the people who died are criminals and so therefore they deserved what they got. I have broken speed limits in my car - as have you - and so I am a criminal and presumably if I crashed and died you would have no sympathy, and nor should I offer you or your family any were it to happen to you.

I dislike graffiti and understand the financial implications. It is wrong. But what logic allows those - presumably without sin - on here to judge and condemn three young men?

Twisted point of view really isn't it?

I bet they didn't have railway tickets either, which is the no.1 sin for some on here.