ATW: 'No trains' after Ed Sheeran concert in Cardiff this Sunday

[Loop & Link]

But as already mentioned, it will be physically impossible for most traincrew to catch a turn on a Sunday anyway, those that are off.

 

[87015]

Will it? And even if it did, it won't tell you how people are planning to travel. We thought we had detailed information for the Papal Visit. Every Parish "knew" how many people would be visiting each venue; each Diocese collated the figures and passed them on to us. On the day it was nothing like!

It should be. Guess what, I’ve been looking at concert extras for a venue today. Perhaps you hadn’t asked the right questions?

Of course what grates is that is doing the right thing won’t outweigh the negative PR for the industry - already knee deep in it - by ATW not bothering and we all get tarred with that.

 

[87015]

I'm sure you'll find that thousands of tickets have been bought somewhere totally random, like Mumbai, and then gone on sale straight away on the secondary market, making that ticket sales data totally useless. Bye.

Is this some bizarre Cardiff issue? Everyone else gets incredibly reliable data and works with it.

 

[tbtc]

Errr yes.



At the very least Cardiff and the nearby areas. It is mad that the last train from Cardiff to Pontypridd on a Sunday is 10pm.



Which should be changed asap.

That's not an unreasonable time for the last train on the quietest night of the week, most of the year.

You could run additional services to midnight if you wanted but they'd be deadly quiet most Sunday nights, just for the sake of a handful of mega-concerts a year. Wales has bigger priorities.

Flawed document ? - have you alerted the powers that be ?

I would have thought that any professional company (in this case Arriva) would do their utmost to comply with every aspect of the contract that they have entered into. Quite why you feel that a company should then risk money through running loss-making services on a Sunday night - for one concert - is quite beyond me.

The railways *are* a public service, that's why Arriva works to the contract that was required of them.

Which bit don't you understand ?

Agreed - I'm not sure why people find this so hard to comprehend.

The 2003 SRA specified Wales and Borders franchise was deeply flawed before it had even begun. The powers that be were well aware of this and have been since 2003. It was a 15 year, standstill, no allowance for growth franchise. Essentially Wales was told you're not allowed anymore trains, no extra services, no investment, with no provisions to get ready for 2020 before the franchise ends just 14.5 months before the deadline. And you're lucky you're not getting any cuts to services, along with running a Sunday service around Cardiff and on the Valleys that is barely usable. For 15 years.

Arriva may say they are fulfilling their contract, but that contract is not fit the travel demands of the 21st Century

There's a lot of misunderstanding of "no growth" franchises. A "no growth" franchise can be a sensible baseline with which to begin a franchise. You specify a certain level of service, the operator agrees to meet this demand, you can then choose to pay for more things over and above the basic contract. That's how a lot of "loss making" contracts work in the private sector - e.g. if you were a council contracting out the Refuse Collection - you get the private company to sign up to a certain baseline provision, but you have the flexibility to add on additional things at a later date.

In reality, the (Arriva) Wales & Borders franchise has seen various improvements and increases over the duration of the franchise - e.g. the WAG Express - the powers that be were free to negotiate for such improvements and did reach agreement upon them.

The lack of planning for 1 January 2020 is a serious failing, which is why the new TOC are reliant upon 230s and hoping that 769s can be self-powered - but the 2004 franchise model seems to have worked okay, with various bits of investment and growth (Fishguard enhancements, additional Cambrian services etc).

I would say it is sensible for city transport networks to have the final departures from the city centre somewhere between 2330 and 0000 seven days a week, yes.

Really? That seems overprovision on Sunday nights.

We have tried to explain why it's difficult, probably loss-making and possibly just plain impossible to do.

If the concert finishes at 11, and you can get the last trains away by 12 it'll be 2am before the empty stock gets back to the depot. Stock which is then due off again (cleaned, watered and maintained) by 0500 onwards. The traincrew would be booking off around 0230 which means they couldn't book on again for their Monday jobs till 1430.

But if you want to believe it's a petulant "shan't go to work attitude" that's up to you.

Good sensible evidence-based argument.

It's not as easy as some (other) people would like to believe!

What I really don't get is why people are having a go at Arriva when they appear to be complying with what was required of them. If the contract was 'flawed' then why hasn't anyone pursued it through the appropriate authorities years ago. Crazy !

Fair points!

A ToC has the option of doing more than just the franchise. Other ToC's often do. Even Arriva themselves often do. Except when it comes to the issue of Sundays (and bank holidays at Christmas, but thats another topic!).

Yes, but few franchises require anything like the subsidy (per passenger mile) that Wales & Borders does - so Arriva's reluctance to throw additional resources at flexible services is understandable (unless public subsidy is forthcoming).

It's simply an antiquated view that Sunday needs an early finish, and it's false.

Will it make money? Probably not, but city transport networks (other than bus) generally don't. They are subsidised for the public good - accessibility for those without cars, reduced pollution and reduced traffic

Sunday is the quietest night of the week. It is one of the busiest days of the week for long distance train services, but that demand has dwindled by the evening, and the shopping demand finished by teatime.

Mondays and Tuesdays at least seem some reduced price events, some football matches and some Student nights but Sundays remain quiet.

"Subsidised for the public good" =/= "should run till midnight every day of the week and put on additional resources for every big event".

 

[Envoy]

On the Saturday and Sunday, I cannot see why the music events in the Principality Stadium can’t start at around 2pm. That would be especially useful to school kids who are in the middle of the exam season and would not want to be going home around midnight.

The Rolling Stones were in the stadium on a Friday night = the busiest day on the trains and the motorways. Why could they have not done their gig on the Saturday afternoon? Could the Ed Sheeran concerts (4 days running) have not been booked for the 3 week period when the Severn was out of action?

Massive traffic jams again today (Friday) on the M4. Jammed all the way from the Newport tunnel back to the Severn Bridge as well as around Bristol.

 

[bramling]

It's simply an antiquated view that Sunday needs an early finish, and it's false.

It is?

The difficulty is that many/most people want Sundays (and Saturdays) off work in order to partake in leisure activities or to spend time with their families, but likewise seem to increasingly expect the full range of services and facilities to be available to them. Society unfortunately can't have it both ways -- whilst I hear the argument that there's always people willing to work weekends, there's still the issue that this is very much still a minority of people. You can increase this minority by offering some kind of bonus payment, which will doubtlessly attract some people, but who bears this cost? As a taxpayer who doesn't wish to listen to Ed Sheeran late in the evening (or at all for that matter!), why should I subsidise a comparatively tiny number of people who do?

Personally, I happen to prefer days off in the week, but nonetheless I need to have at least some weekends off simply to spend time with others who aren't so fortunate as to have weekdays off, and also there are some leisure activities which can only realistically be done at weekends for various reasons. Weekends can also be a pain to work - in my case drive to work on a weekday and the journey time is reliably fairly quick, whereas weekends can be a lottery according to local events/weather/etc, to the point where working can be a pain I can't be bothered with when I can just stay at home and enjoy my garden!

 

[johnnychips]

Were there any problems with overcrowding last night (Thursday) when there were later trains, and perhaps ATW found extra stock? Because I can imagine ‘oh look we are going to the concert on Thursday, look there’s a late train we can catch’ as opposed to ‘ oh look we are going to the concert on Sunday, sod, there’s no late trains we’ll have to reserve a taxi/ book a hotel/ get Auntie Vera to pick us up’.

 

[Robertj21a]

On the Saturday and Sunday, I cannot see why the music events in the Principality Stadium can’t start at around 2pm. That would be especially useful to school kids who are in the middle of the exam season and would not want to be going home around midnight.

The Rolling Stones were in the stadium on a Friday night = the busiest day on the trains and the motorways. Why could they have not done their gig on the Saturday afternoon? Could the Ed Sheeran concerts (4 days running) have not been booked for the 3 week period when the Severn was out of action?

Massive traffic jams again today (Friday) on the M4. Jammed all the way from the Newport tunnel back to the Severn Bridge as well as around Bristol.

Who wants to go to a concert during the afternoon ? - let alone all those who are working/shopping etc.

 

[6Gman]

If that was a problem there wouldn't be any trains after about 2200 on a weekday - but there are. It's simply an antiquated view that Sunday needs an early finish, and it's false.

Will it make money? Probably not, but city transport networks (other than bus) generally don't. They are subsidised for the public good - accessibility for those without cars, reduced pollution and reduced traffic.

Must admit this one really surprised me, though:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P53783/2018/06/23/advanced

Traincrews don't (generally) switch from earlies to lates on weekdays.

 

[6Gman]

Who wants to go to a concert during the afternoon ? - let alone all those who are working/shopping etc.

I like afternoon concerts. 4pm even better. Take our time getting there, a meal afterwards and train home at a sensible time!

 

[6Gman]

Were there any problems with overcrowding last night (Thursday) when there were later trains, and perhaps ATW found extra stock? Because I can imagine ‘oh look we are going to the concert on Thursday, look there’s a late train we can catch’ as opposed to ‘ oh look we are going to the concert on Sunday, sod, there’s no late trains we’ll have to reserve a taxi/ book a hotel/ get Auntie Vera to pick us up’.

Plenty of problems on the roads!

 

[dk1]

No - we are saying that Sundays should have a better level of service (see above for how crap it currently is) and the day should be part of the working week because it is insane that a train operator that runs a 7 day a week timetable relies on volunteers to fulfill one of those days.

But if that's not agreed in the drivers contract of employment it makes no difference what ATW wants it ain't going to happen. We will have to wait & see what the new franchise offers in the way of a carrot for an agreement to be reached. I wouldn't hold my breath just yet.

 

[dk1]

I like afternoon concerts. 4pm even better. Take our time getting there, a meal afterwards and train home at a sensible time!

& on a Sunday too. Perfect I say.

 

[dk1]

They're managing it on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. Presumably three nights is the limit and Sunday is a day/night of catching up with maintenance/rest/sleep.

As said, Sunday is not a sensible day to expect later train services due to rostering commitments etc etc etc.

 

[Dai Corner]

But if that's not agreed in the drivers contract of employment it makes no difference what ATW wants it ain't going to happen. We will have to wait & see what the new franchise offers in the way of a carrot for an agreement to be reached. I wouldn't hold my breath just yet.

They're taking on 600 new staff. They could have different contracts with Sundays in the working week?

 

[theblackwatch]

I do find it strange that people going to this concert appear to be kicking off about this. Don't they do any research beforehand with regard to how they will get to/from the event? Earlier this year, I went to a concert in York - despite living less than 20 miles from there, my last train home was at 22.11. Rather than expect the TOC to lay on a later train, I made alternative arrangements. It seems that is too difficult for some though!

 

[dk1]

They're taking on 600 new staff. They could have different contracts with Sundays in the working week?

ASLEF wouldn't tolerate it mate. Not how it works with drivers.

 

[dk1]

I do find it strange that people going to this concert appear to be kicking off about this. Don't they do any research beforehand with regard to how they will get to/from the event? Earlier this year, I went to a concert in York - despite living less than 20 miles from there, my last train home was at 22.11. Rather than expect the TOC to lay on a later train, I made alternative arrangements. It seems that is too difficult for some though!

Exactly. Very strange mindset from these folk. It's like the world revolves around them when it suits their own social life. Very strange attitude.

 

[Phil from Mon]

I love those posts saying book a hotel. Clearly they don’t know Cardiff. I had a meeting at 10.00 am a couple of weeks ago the day after the Beyoncé concert, nothing less than £250 for the night so I had to get the 5.00 down from Bangor and survive 41/2 hours without any food or drink. My wife had the same today, the closest she could get a hotel was Newport so she got the red-eye special as well. She is coming back on Gerald now, and it is already 15 minutes late again, this time at Wrexham.

I just hope the early train, and general reliability, improves a bit after October.

 

[Dai Corner]

ASLEF wouldn't tolerate it mate. Not how it works with drivers.

Dunno about the Canton branch, but it's supposedly ASLEF policy I believe?

 

[Robertj21a]

I love those posts saying book a hotel. Clearly they don’t know Cardiff. I had a meeting at 10.00 am a couple of weeks ago the day after the Beyoncé concert, nothing less than £250 for the night so I had to get the 5.00 down from Bangor and survive 41/2 hours without any food or drink. My wife had the same today, the closest she could get a hotel was Newport so she got the red-eye special as well. She is coming back on Gerald now, and it is already 15 minutes late again, this time at Wrexham.

I just hope the early train, and general reliability, improves a bit after October.

Why couldn't you take any food or drink ?

 

[Dai Corner]

Why couldn't you take any food or drink ?

Or book accomodation allowing you to catch a train at a more civilised hour?

 

[6Gman]

Why couldn't you take any food or drink ?

To be fair I'm not sure there are many places open in Bangor at 5am

 

[WelshBluebird]

But if that's not agreed in the drivers contract of employment it makes no difference what ATW wants it ain't going to happen. We will have to wait & see what the new franchise offers in the way of a carrot for an agreement to be reached. I wouldn't hold my breath just yet.

As said, Sunday is not a sensible day to expect later train services due to rostering commitments etc etc etc.

To both of those points - only because of historical reasons. No reason at all (apart from the will of the ToC) why that couldn't change. And for all new staff it really should already be the case IMO. As I have said before, the idea that ToCs try to run a timetable with just volunteers on Sundays is ludicrous. In most other industries you'd be laughed out of the place if you suggested working a public service without actually being able to properly rota staff for that day.

I do find it strange that people going to this concert appear to be kicking off about this. Don't they do any research beforehand with regard to how they will get to/from the event? Earlier this year, I went to a concert in York - despite living less than 20 miles from there, my last train home was at 22.11. Rather than expect the TOC to lay on a later train, I made alternative arrangements. It seems that is too difficult for some though!

Well apart from the fact that, as I mentioned earlier, ATW often to run additional services after a city centre event. So much so that I'd say it is probably expected by now. However the details of these are usually only actually make clear in the weeks running up to the event, well after people would have bought the tickets and planned their journeys / hotels etc. Sure, you may have gone to a concert in york. But I bet it wasn't a concert where 60k people plus were going and similar events in the same place had a history of additional trains being put on. Considering ATW are putting additional trains on every day but Sunday, I think the assumption that there would be additional trains on Sunday a pretty solid one, and not "strange" at all.

Exactly. Very strange mindset from these folk. It's like the world revolves around them when it suits their own social life. Very strange attitude.

Not at all. I just think the fact that last trains finishing before 10.30pm (and the general poor Sunday service in the area) is just not good enough.
It isn't about "the world revolving around" certain people and their social life. Its about trying to make sure the railway is a real alternative to driving for people in this country. If we are serious about getting people to use public transport, then issues like this need to be resolved.

Or book accomodation allowing you to catch a train at a more civilised hour?

Errr they said in the post. The meeting was the day after a stadium event which meant hotel rooms were £250+.
Sure staying halfway may have been an option, but that would have been even more fuss, and the point they were making was that for those saying those going to events in Cardiff should just book a hotel - well it isn't that simple!

Or book accomodation allowing you to catch a train at a more civilised hour?

Errr they said in the post. The meeting was the day after a stadium event which meant hotel rooms were £250+.
Sure staying halfway may have been an option, but that would have been even more fuss, and the point they were making was that for those saying those going to events in Cardiff should just book a hotel - well it isn't that simple!

 

[Dai Corner]

To be fair I'm not sure there are many places open in Bangor at 5am

Flask and food from home?

 

[WelshBluebird]

That's not an unreasonable time for the last train on the quietest night of the week, most of the year.

You could run additional services to midnight if you wanted but they'd be deadly quiet most Sunday nights, just for the sake of a handful of mega-concerts a year. Wales has bigger priorities.

Sorry but in a major city 10pm is not an acceptable time for the last train on the local Metro network any day of the week.

Agreed - I'm not sure why people find this so hard to comprehend.

And I am not sure why people find it so hard to understand that a ToC can operate additional services if there is the will to do so (as ATW do other times, and as other ToCs often do).

There's a lot of misunderstanding of "no growth" franchises. A "no growth" franchise can be a sensible baseline with which to begin a franchise. You specify a certain level of service, the operator agrees to meet this demand, you can then choose to pay for more things over and above the basic contract. That's how a lot of "loss making" contracts work in the private sector - e.g. if you were a council contracting out the Refuse Collection - you get the private company to sign up to a certain baseline provision, but you have the flexibility to add on additional things at a later date.

In reality, the (Arriva) Wales & Borders franchise has seen various improvements and increases over the duration of the franchise - e.g. the WAG Express - the powers that be were free to negotiate for such improvements and did reach agreement upon them.

The lack of planning for 1 January 2020 is a serious failing, which is why the new TOC are reliant upon 230s and hoping that 769s can be self-powered - but the 2004 franchise model seems to have worked okay, with various bits of investment and growth (Fishguard enhancements, additional Cambrian services etc).

But the very premise of no growth is flawed. The idea that passenger numbers were not going to grow just shouldn't have even been an option in the franchise because that clearly was not going to happen. It was not, and is not, a "sensible baseline".

Really? That seems overprovision on Sunday nights.

Not sure how you can know that as generally Sunday services have been so poor that it probably puts people off making journeys they would otherwise make. You can't not provide a service (or provide a very poor one), then say look no one uses it so there's no point improving it.

Good sensible evidence-based argument.

It's not as easy as some (other) people would like to believe!

In terms of the extra trains, literally the only thing stopping it is Sunday working. They are doing the extra services other nights so it has nothing to do with what time units get to depots etc.

Fair points!

Again, nothing to stop a ToC running extra services (as ATW are doing all the other nights Ed Sheeran is there).

Yes, but few franchises require anything like the subsidy (per passenger mile) that Wales & Borders does - so Arriva's reluctance to throw additional resources at flexible services is understandable (unless public subsidy is forthcoming).

Well apart from the millions they sent back to DB.

Sunday is the quietest night of the week. It is one of the busiest days of the week for long distance train services, but that demand has dwindled by the evening, and the shopping demand finished by teatime.

Mondays and Tuesdays at least seem some reduced price events, some football matches and some Student nights but Sundays remain quiet.

"Subsidised for the public good" =/= "should run till midnight every day of the week and put on additional resources for every big event".

Why not? Plenty of places do put on additional services for events - as I said ATW are doing it for the other days too.
As I said in a previous post - if we as a society are serious about getting people to use public transport (rather than it just being a soundbite), then we need to stop saying "oh its too hard" and actually sort out things like this.

 

[6Gman]

To both of those points - only because of historical reasons. No reason at all (apart from the will of the ToC) why that couldn't change. And for all new staff it really should already be the case IMO. As I have said before, the idea that ToCs try to run a timetable with just volunteers on Sundays is ludicrous. In most other industries you'd be laughed out of the place if you suggested working a public service without actually being able to properly rota staff for that day.

Voluntary work on Sundays is only part of the problem. There's also the issue of staff switching between Early Duties and Lates.

In principle I would support:

1. Putting Sunday within the standard week;
2. Having more stock;
3. Having more flexibility.

All of which would help in meeting one-off peaks.

But none of this can be secured by ATW for Sunday 24th June 2018. So they have probably made the right decision.

 

[6Gman]

Sorry but in a major city 10pm is not an acceptable time for the last train on the local Metro network any day of the week.

Which is an issue for the franchise specification.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Voluntary work on Sundays is only part of the problem. There's also the issue of staff switching between Early Duties and Lates.

In principle I would support:

1. Putting Sunday within the standard week;
2. Having more stock;
3. Having more flexibility.

All of which would help in meeting one-off peaks.

But none of this can be secured by ATW for Sunday 24th June 2018. So they have probably made the right decision.

But the issue of Sunday working (and duties etc as you mention) is not a new one. If ATW really wanted to, they could have started looking at it years ago and had it solved by now.

Which is an issue for the franchise specification.

And the ToC. As I keep saying there is no reason why a ToC cannot run additional services if it wants. I just watched a video about the new class 710's for London Overground and the LO guy on there briefly mentioned that they are thinking about if they can run earlier and later trains and also that they are talking to National Rail about if there can be any tweaks to allow trains to run more frequently. I know LO is different (its London, and its a different franchise model) but the point is that operators, if they have the desire, can improve services on their own!

I'm getting pretty fed up of the "its not in the franchise" rubbish. If you do not have a desire to improve services beyond what is in the franchise, then IMO you should not be awarded the franchise.

 

[Dai Corner]

C

And the ToC. As I keep saying there is no reason why a ToC cannot run additional services if it wants. I just watched a video about the new class 710's for London Overground and the LO guy on there briefly mentioned that they are thinking about if they can run earlier and later trains and also that they are talking to National Rail about if there can be any tweaks to allow trains to run more frequently. I know LO is different (its London, and its a different franchise model) but the point is that operators, if they have the desire, can improve services on their own!

I'm getting pretty fed up of the "its not in the franchise" rubbish. If you do not have a desire to improve services beyond what is in the franchise, then IMO you should not be awarded the franchise.

Why should ATW do anything over and above their contract if there's nothing in it for them? When the last service of the day gets to Treherbert would you expect the driver and guard to say "let's pop down to Central and back before we book off in case anyone's waiting" without pay?