ATW: 'No trains' after Ed Sheeran concert in Cardiff this Sunday

[6Gman]

Except ATW normally provide additional trains after a stadium event, and they are for the previous 3 nights of the artist having gigs at the stadium. I'd suggest that people wouldn't entirely be crazy to think there would be additional trains on the 4th night too.

I think most people will be aware that Sunday services will differ from what is available on other days. Something not restricted to the railway.

 

[6Gman]

I see Sundays inside the working week has appeared again and it's all Ed Sheeran's fault.......

Ultimately it comes down to money. Relying on overtime for Sundays is cheapest for the TOC. At some TOCs, if a driver can't cover a booked Sunday they are required to do enforced overtime. The problem is there are only x amount of volunteers to cover services. Some TOCs struggle to cover basic services.

Those who think ASLEF are blocking the 7 day railway are ill-informed and wrong. The unions want Sundays in the working week and have done for years, it creates more jobs and eliminates overtime. The DfT have finally woke up and realised that if they want more Sunday services, they need to change contracts and employ more staff. That is what is been done in future franchises. The TOC will have to take this into account when bidding and controlling their potential costs. EMT, DfT and ASLEF have an agreement to progress Sundays inside the working week. I believe EMT couldn't do it alone without government money because it would have damaged the balance sheet. Most TOCs have no appetite to include Sundays inside the working week because the revenue growth doesn't outweigh the additional staffing costs.

Even if ATW staff had Sundays inside the working week, it would cover a basic service only. You don't have dozens of rostered traincrew sat spare every weekend costing ££ on the odd chance Ed and his guitar comes into town again. There would have to be additional staff volunteering to work Sunday evening. One of the worst times of the week for it to happen.

Arriva Wales aren't alone on this. There are other TOCs that will pump out the warning of no additional trains after a certain time. Wembley Play-Offs and cup finals is a usual one. They won't schedule services and leave themselves open for staff opting out of doing overtime on their day off. They'll be stuck with thousands of people at a busy station with next to no means of transport.

All good points, well made. Sadly it probably won't stop some people claiming that it's all easy to do so long as the railway "modernises".

 

[6Gman]

Anyone with experience will know how to progress matters for the most efficient outcome. The railways seem stuck with outdated ideas and blinkered thinking - seemingly from both management and unions. Get some fresh eyes (and brains) in and get it sorted !

On the issue of Sunday working it's quite easy - in a way - to "get it sorted". Bring it inside the standard week. But, as pointed out above by FordFocus, this will be more expensive. So is that to be funded by higher fares or higher subsidy?

And you still have the problem of Sunday being the day that allows people to switch lates to earlies and vice versa.

 

[yorksrob]

On the issue of Sunday working it's quite easy - in a way - to "get it sorted". Bring it inside the standard week. But, as pointed out above by FordFocus, this will be more expensive. So is that to be funded by higher fares or higher subsidy?

And you still have the problem of Sunday being the day that allows people to switch lates to earlies and vice versa.

As I've said in other threads, the rebalancing of railway funding from taxpayer to passenger has achieved a lot but has run its course. Further improvements should be implemented by bringing public funding closer in line with our neighbours on the continent.

 

[dk1]

Anyone with experience will know how to progress matters for the most efficient outcome. The railways seem stuck with outdated ideas and blinkered thinking - seemingly from both management and unions. Get some fresh eyes (and brains) in and get it sorted !

If I hadn't a quid for each time I've seen that. These fresh eyes with no brains turn up, alienate everyone, eventually get sidelined & are never heard of again.

 

[Dai Corner]

If I hadn't a quid for each time I've seen that. These fresh eyes with no brains turn up, alienate everyone, eventually get sidelined & are never heard of again.

"We've always done it this way. It can't possibly be improved"

See also: Royal Mail, NHS, British Leyland and other industries (especially nationalised or formerly nationalised).

 

[dk1]

"We've always done it this way. It can't possibly be improved"

See also: Royal Mail, NHS, British Leyland and other industries (especially nationalised or formerly nationalised).

The railway has seen more changes than you can shake a stick at & we've pulled through just fine every time. It's going to take a field full of carrots to get Sundays & certain other new working practices through this time. As I said, lots of negotiating to be done yet.

 

[jon0844]

If I hadn't a quid for each time I've seen that. These fresh eyes with no brains turn up, alienate everyone, eventually get sidelined & are never heard of again.

People often think they can do someone else's job better. I remember a TV experiment where people got given the money they normally paid as council tax, and were told to spend it themselves. They were all sure they'd do a better job than a clueless council.

They quickly discovered the harsh realities, where they realised if they did A, B didn't happen. Or if they did C, they had no money for D. And all the time, they forgot about E.

That and these people just looked out for themselves, so weren't helping. It would be like someone coming in and demanding trains ran later on a Sunday, but then cut back morning services instead.

I have no problem with anyone that can offer suggestions for improvements, as long as they can also sit and listen to people explaining in detail why something cannot happen.

 

[allaction]

It will be interesting to see whether the new TfW incumbent takes a different approach to providing additional services on big event days at the Principality Stadium.

One pointer will come in March 2019 when the rugby Six Nations fixtures for 2020 and 2021 will be announced: up to two years’ notice of major fixtures that could be held late on a Saturday or on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[tiptoptaff]

It will be interesting to see whether the new TfW incumbent takes a different approach to providing additional services on big event days at the Principality Stadium.

One pointer will come in March 2019 when the rugby Six Nations fixtures for 2020 and 2021 will be announced: up to two years’ notice of major fixtures that could be held late on a Saturday or on a Sunday afternoon.

I can see it going badly - TfW will get insist on running later additionals instead of planned engineering works as "that can wait it's not urgent" - and so on and so on......

 

[alangla]

Surely the key word is "planned" - work can be planned to avoid those specific days or easier, shorter, jobs booked for those occasions. TBH, if it's so difficult to actually make money from running extra services up the valleys, even if they're full, I'm tempted to suggest that offering reserved seats on Rail Replacement Buses as part of a concert special ticket might actually be the best way out for the TOC. Everyone gets home, no staffing problems and either less of a loss or a small profit.

 

[Dai Corner]

I have wondered about the economics of running the additional trains.

A four car Cl150 has about 300 seats and a Valleys Night Rider ticket is £7. There will probably be standing, shorter distance passengers will pay less and some will have season tickets. Let's assume these roughly balance out and running a train from the Aberdare or Merthyr to Cardiff and back brings in £2000. Would that cover the direct costs?

 

[221129]

I have wondered about the economics of running the additional trains.

A four car Cl150 has about 300 seats and a Valleys Night Rider ticket is £7. There will probably be standing, shorter distance passengers will pay less and some will have season tickets. Let's assume these roughly balance out and running a train from the Aberdare or Merthyr to Cardiff and back brings in £2000. Would that cover the direct costs?

Very unlikely.

 

[dk1]

I have wondered about the economics of running the additional trains.

A four car Cl150 has about 300 seats and a Valleys Night Rider ticket is £7. There will probably be standing, shorter distance passengers will pay less and some will have season tickets. Let's assume these roughly balance out and running a train from the Aberdare or Merthyr to Cardiff and back brings in £2000. Would that cover the direct costs?

Probably wouldn't cover the cost of the bottled water the railway seems it has to copiously provide for people these days.

 

[87015]

Very unlikely.

Based on what? When we run a (4-car EMU) charter the cost per train is just over half that and makes a handsome operating margin. Can't see how the other costs can be so different in Wales even a 185 isn't going to use that much fuel and a guard turn wouldn't appear to be more costly than a driver?

 

[Dai Corner]

Perhaps not a totally valid comparison, but

WCRC are running six return trips a day on the ten mile Windermere branch and reportedly charging £6000. That works out at £50 a mile.

Cardiff Central to Merthyr Tydfil and back is about 48 miles so in my example revenue would be just over £40 a mile.

 

[dk1]

Perhaps not a totally valid comparison, but

WCRC are running six return trips a day on the ten mile Windermere branch and reportedly charging £6000. That works out at £50 a mile.

Cardiff Central to Merthyr Tydfil and back is about 48 miles so in my example revenue would be just over £40 a mile.

DRS where reported to be charging £35k per week for covering x2 Lowestoft & x5 Yarmouth services from Norwich daily (SX) whilst 170204 was repaired. That was inclusive of x2 68s, stock & drivers along with an outbased fitter that also looked after the 37 short hauled set.

 

[221129]

Based on what? When we run a (4-car EMU) charter the cost per train is just over half that and makes a handsome operating margin. Can't see how the other costs can be so different in Wales even a 185 isn't going to use that much fuel and a guard turn wouldn't appear to be more costly than a driver?

You also have to factor in the cost of the ECS to get back to Canton, the additional security and staff costs at stations etc.

 

[87015]

You also have to factor in the cost of the ECS to get back to Canton, the additional security and staff costs at stations etc.

It includes all of that as we do it too - these are out of hours extras. Nice “management” % too.

 

[Llanigraham]

You also have to factor in the cost of the ECS to get back to Canton, the additional security and staff costs at stations etc.

And the costs for all the Network Rail personnel that will also need to be rostered.

 

[Robertj21a]

I have wondered about the economics of running the additional trains.

A four car Cl150 has about 300 seats and a Valleys Night Rider ticket is £7. There will probably be standing, shorter distance passengers will pay less and some will have season tickets. Let's assume these roughly balance out and running a train from the Aberdare or Merthyr to Cardiff and back brings in £2000. Would that cover the direct costs?

Quite possibly not if you take account of all the various costs involved.

 

[LAX54]

Why are there so many people off on Sunday not working, surely everyone should be at work ! Oh sorry, one rule for one, and one rule for another

 

[Robertj21a]

Why are there so many people off on Sunday not working, surely everyone should be at work ! Oh sorry, one rule for one, and one rule for another

Some of us are at work.......

 

[Dai Corner]

Why are there so many people off on Sunday not working, surely everyone should be at work ! Oh sorry, one rule for one, and one rule for another

Speaking personally I have seven rest days a week, 52 weeks a year. (Following 37 years of uninterrupted full time work).

 

[dk1]

Why are there so many people off on Sunday not working, surely everyone should be at work ! Oh sorry, one rule for one, and one rule for another

The sooner it becomes a normal working day the better. What is it with main supermarkets shutting at 16:00 when I want to shop at 18:30 like I would any other day & causing me great inconvenience. Don't even get me started on banks & post offices.

 

[6Gman]

I have wondered about the economics of running the additional trains.

A four car Cl150 has about 300 seats and a Valleys Night Rider ticket is £7. There will probably be standing, shorter distance passengers will pay less and some will have season tickets. Let's assume these roughly balance out and running a train from the Aberdare or Merthyr to Cardiff and back brings in £2000. Would that cover the direct costs?

Of course we have no way of knowing whether each train will have 300 passengers, 50 passengers or 700 passengers ...

 

[Dai Corner]

Of course we have no way of knowing whether each train will have 300 passengers, 50 passengers or 700 passengers ...

The fact that they have to set up a queueing system outside Cardiff Central, make Queen Street exit-only and strengthen and/or put on additional trains when there's a large event on suggest the trains are likely to be full and standing.

 

[Robertj21a]

So - it must be about now that everybody is going to try to catch those trains that don't run this late on a Sunday evening. Perhaps everyone can confirm how they got home - car/lift/bus/taxi/walk/horse etc

 

[Michael.Y]

The missus drove in at about 1pm, parked opposite the stadium, left at 2235 and has just walked through the door. 11 miles in 40 minutes. Not bad considering.

 

[philthetube]

Does anyone else feel that the concert organisers had some responsibility to ensure that the gig fit with public transport in Cardiff.

I cannot see any reason why the fourth night could have been on the Tues instead of the Sun, or even the following Mon, cost a few quid, but not a lot in the scale of things.