Wouldn't it be great if Cross-Country took some of the redundant HST's?

[nat67]

So you know exactly what the issues encountered by Wabtec are, then? No, thought not.

What do you mean the corrosion of the MK3's or something else.

 

[Rail Blues]

Ok - so no answers then but lots of contempt for fare paying passengers. I simply want a seat I have paid a great deal of money for

For the avoidance of any doubt: I am a fare paying passenger too, stop acting like a whiney twit. I have contempt for what you've written as you produce nonsense that veers between self pitying nonsense to fantasy trains set solutions.

Whats your solution to the overcrowding issues? Give us the benefit of your expertise?

I don't have any. I am like you a fare paying passenger like you not some member of the illuminati like rail cabal that exists in your head . However I don't dream up idiotic solutions and then tantrum when people point out the blindingly obvious faults. You know sod all, I know sod all. Difference is I know it. You however appear to be walking talking proof of the Dunning-Kruger effect in operation.

 

[DarloRich]

For the avoidance of any doubt: I am a fare paying passenger too, stop acting like a whiney twit. I have contempt for what you've written as you produce nonsense that veers between self pitying nonsense to fantasy trains set solutions.

Do you think that paying £100 for a ticket and standing next to the bog for 3 hours is acceptable? If so you are a twit.

I don't have any. I am like you a fare paying passenger like you not some member of the illuminati like rail cabal that existing in your head . However I don't dream up idiotic solutions and then tantrum when people point out the blindingly obvious faults. You know sod all, I know sod all. Difference is I know it. You however appear to be walking talking proof of the Dunning-Kruger effect in operation.

What are your solutions to the problems of a shortage of capacity on XC Trains? Please feel free to share them. I suspect you don't have any and cant offer anything more than sad personal attacks.

 

[43096]

Ever heard of a 4 car voyager full and standing? Seat reservations will not magic up a seat where one exists!

Yes. Given that you know it is a problem then why not do the obvious, plan it and book ahead whenever possible. Or maybe you just like being the victim?

 

[Rail Blues]

Do you think that paying £100 for a ticket and standing next to the bog for 3 hours is acceptable? If so you are a twit.

What are your solution to the problems of a shortage of capacity on XC Trains? Please feel free to share them. I suspect you don't have any and cant offer anything more than sad personal attacks.

Christ, this is getting really tedious. You haven't offered a workable solution but veered between stomping your feet and pulling fantasy solutions out of the air. Given a blanket post 2020 derogation is far from assured and the paths are designed for voyager acceleration, why not explain how you'd rewrite multiple TOCs timetables to facilitate this? Good luck with that one.

The only sensible and sustainable solution is new bimode stock in the next round of franchising.

I don't spend a £100 or have to standard next to a bog as I have the gumption to book a ticket from New St to Waverley as I know it will be busy (not weeks in advance either).

 

[bnm]

My last trip out of Brum on a Voyager was a Friday evening. I knew my return time only after midday. I was able to reserve a seat.

 

[Rail Blues]

Yes. Given that you know it is a problem then why not do the obvious, plan it and book ahead whenever possible. Or maybe you just like being the victim?

Well Albert Einstein stated that a definition of idiocy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

using the 350s wouldn't be much different to the mk2 set used in VXC days between Manchester and Birmingham. The self contained shuttle worked and still connected well with Thames valley and south west services. With VWC now filling the gap when the north west was taken off VXC connections will still be available and free up a couple of voyagers to strengthen other services.

as for HST acceleration a 6 or 7 car formation is a lot more sprightly in performance than a 9 car as used by VTEC/LNER and 5 car will keep voyager timings and still provide more seats, more space than a 221. DDA hasn't yet kicked in so feasably HSTs could be used in the mean time in their current configurations until then. As long as a suitable current DDA compliant carriage is included. If capacity is an issue perhaps a second contractor should be employed to also offer conversions to rolling stock in order to mop up the backlog and get more carriages in service quicker

 

[bnm]

A second contractor would need to design an automatic door or licence and learn Wabtec's proprietary design. A second contractor has to deal with the corrosion issues too. Take a close look at the door area of a current GWR Mk3. The corrosion is evident. Only the paint and vinyl is giving the appearance that the bodyshell is okay.

5/6/7 HSTs are nowhere near as quick off the blocks and up to line speed as 220/221s.

 

[Rail Blues]

DDA hasn't yet kicked in so feasably HSTs could be used in the mean time in their current configurations until then. As long as a suitable current DDA compliant carriage is included. If capacity is an issue perhaps a second contractor should be employed to also offer conversions to rolling stock in order to mop up the backlog and get more carriages in service quicker

The deadline is 18 months away. In that time you need to find a company to design their own design of automatic doors or conclude negotiations with Wabtec to licence their design, get them to hire a suitably trained and qualified workforce (and part of the problem Wabtec is having is they cannot recruit enough skilled staff), set up a production line and then knock out eight or ten dda compliant carriages.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not defending every aspect of Voyagers.

But as someone who works in the industry, you know that it's horrifically complicated to try to amend a service like (Aberdeen) Edinburgh - Plymouth (Penzance) to deal with slower trains, since adding an extra minute here and there (to cope with poorer acceleration) is going to mean finding your train stuck behind a stopper coming out of Leeds/ Birmingham etc, which is going to ruin the timetable.

Nothing to do with smelly toilets - everything to do with the railway being very complicated (as you know from your day job).



East Midlands Railway (East Midlands Rail?) are getting something like a bi-mode/ 802.

That frees up a couple of dozen "125mph long distance DMUs" (i.e. broadly similar to Voyagers, the only unelectrified stock that can cope with Voyager timings).

Or give up on Aberdeen/ Paignton/ Penzance etc - reduce the service beyond Exeter/ York etc (and let local TOCs pick up the strain).



Forum tradition seems to be that every thread about XC will eventually end up with someone suggesting that they reintroduce services to Brighton (or Liverpool, Ramsgate etc), regardless of the fact that those places don't have the capacity etc for a handful of randomly timed XC services (that they did in BR days).



Yes - this!

If we could churn out a refurbished accessible train - and even convert them to be self-powered (from all of the 319s/ 458s and whatnot that are going to be spare) then I'd be fine for us to reuse/ reduce/ recycle.

But it appears to be hideously expensive, more complicated than imagined and takes forever. The only silver lining being Viva's conversion of D trains into 230s but that's very much a cottage industry to solve niche problems (rather than a nationwide solution).

Got to deal with reality - however much some people fixate on the "proper" 1970s trains that they grew up with. This is obviously difficult for some posters to come to terms with, but you've got to look at the various Renatus/769 projects (and the queues for upgrading HSTs for ScotRail etc) and accept that "simply convert HSTs" is maybe a bit more complicated than some people would like.



Deal with reality, Rob, not emotions.

e.g. "can HSTs cope with paths designed for Voyager acceleration"... "are plans to upgrade HSTs for ScotRail etc going well"

Once you've answered that, we can worry about bringing back "proper" trains and all that jazz.



Look at the furore over TPE trying to introduce a couple of non-accessible trains - replacing accessible Voyagers with lots of unrefurbished HSTs isn't going to solve anything.

The railway industry has known about accessibility deadlines for long enough to have a solution.



Agreed.

Get some 802s built and don't muck about.

Yes, I'm afraid I do tend to react to my emotions. The emotion of getting annoyed when squashed up uncomfortably on an inadequate train.

The Mk 3's which TPE supposedly intended to run aren't really compatible with my suggestion that each HST should have a priority carriage fitted out to the latest standard. This would ensure that every potential passenger would still have access to every train, whereas TPE were proposing to make people wait for the next service, then ringvfor a taxi if they couldn't get on that.

Is that too pragmatic a solution for the purists ?

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe or maybe not. But you have to firstly get these trains into service, ensure they provide the amenities that 21st century passengers expect and ensure they are reliable and we aren't even close in most cases.It is becoming increasingly apparent that getting 40 year old stock fit for the 21st century is difficult, expensive and fraught with risk. Not a single one of these projects is going to plan or anything close to it.

No passengers may not care or even know exactly how old the train they are travelling on is, but nor do they have the bogus nostalgia that afflicts some rail enthusiasts. With new rolling stock increasingly cheap to lease, longevity, build times that compare with patching up aged stock for 21st century and increased reliability and reduced operating cost, the alternatives don't stack up.

If rolling stock was that cheap to lease and operate, Cross Country wouldn't have the crowding issues now. It does, so it isn't.

 

[Rail Blues]

The Mk 3's which TPE supposedly intended to run aren't really compatible with my suggestion that each HST should have a priority carriage fitted out to the latest standard. This would ensure that every potential passenger would still have access to every train, whereas TPE were proposing to make people wait for the next service, then ringvfor a taxi if they couldn't get on that.

Is that too pragmatic a solution for the purists ?

And how and when will they get built?

 

[yorksrob]

That would have been a sensible/pragmatic approach to old non-compliant vehicles (I see no reason why we can't have fully compliant new build!) but we are where we are and I don't see that there is any chance of such a change occurring.



Which is a rather damning indictment of the industry in many ways isn't it? Not as if this deadline has suddenly appeared from nowhere it's been known about for a decade or more! But as I said to the honourable member for EPBs (@yorksrob ) we are where we are!

Personally I think that we will see derogation's but I'm not convinced we'll see blanket ones. I think, for example, Scotrail will secure one fairly easily as they have a plan in place for compliance for their HST fleet. I can see the EMT franchise getting a derogation for their HSTs because the next franchise will be committed to replacing them with new stock.

I'm not sure a proposal that boiled down to "lets use more non-compliant HSTs to increase capacity" would pass muster unless there was a very good answer to a follow up question along the lines of "what is your rolling stock plan to replace them with compliant stock or make them compliant and how long will that take?".

Personally speaking I still believe a far more sensible short term fix is to tweak the hell out of the XC timetable (as has been proposed already) to maximise capacity until either new stock or cascaded stock becomes available.

I think it's probably a better solution to endless derogations. This is potentially an expensive problem and a little parliamentary time seems like a cheaper option.

 

[Rail Blues]

If rolling stock was that cheap to lease and operate, Cross Country wouldn't have the crowding issues now. It does, so it isn't.

Don't talk empty, you know as well as I do that they are tied into a contract for the voyagers.

 

[yorksrob]

And how and when will they get built?

Take one of the HST's currently being converted by XC. Instead of converting all vehicles (is it seven ?). Convert one, and then convert one each out of another six units.

 

[yorksrob]

Don't talk empty, you know as well as I do that they are tied into a contract for the voyagers.

If new IC diesel roolling stock is so cheap to build, how come they haven't already placed an order so that the Voyagers can be doubled up ? Answer is, its not.

 

[cactustwirly]

Yes, I'm afraid I do tend to react to my emotions. The emotion of getting annoyed when squashed up uncomfortably on an inadequate train.

The Mk 3's which TPE supposedly intended to run aren't really compatible with my suggestion that each HST should have a priority carriage fitted out to the latest standard. This would ensure that every potential passenger would still have access to every train, whereas TPE were proposing to make people wait for the next service, then ringvfor a taxi if they couldn't get on that.

Is that too pragmatic a solution for the purists ?

Would be illegal post 2020, so not worth bothering with.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes. Given that you know it is a problem then why not do the obvious, plan it and book ahead whenever possible. Or maybe you just like being the victim?

Well Albert Einstein stated that a definition of idiocy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

Perhaps you could offer me the benefit of your obvious expertise. I need to travel to the north east this Friday. I am not sure what time i will finish work. It could be 1600 or 18800 ( even 1900 on a bad day) which train should I book?

Christ, this is getting really tedious. You haven't offered a workable solution but veered between stomping your feet and pulling fantasy solutions out of the air. Given a blanket post 2020 derogation is far from assured and the paths are designed for voyager acceleration, why not explain how you'd rewrite multiple TOCs timetables to facilitate this? Good luck with that one.

The only sensible and sustainable solution is new bimode stock in the next round of franchising.

I don't spend a £100 or have to standard next to a bog as I have the gumption to book a ticket from New St to Waverley as I know it will be busy (not weeks in advance either).

it is good we agree on two things:

• You are tedious
• new trains are needed

It seems you take pride in having no ideas, especially about how to fix the short term capacity issues on XC trains. I wonder if you could go away and use your brilliance to come up with an idea on this point. Try to avoid the snidey digs if you can.

 

[Rail Blues]

If new IC diesel roolling stock is so cheap to build, how come they haven't already placed an order so that the Voyagers can be doubled up ? Answer is, its not.

By the same token, if HSTs are such a great solution, why haven't XC been champing at the bit. The current XC franchise runs out in 2019 and the rolling stock market has only swung in favour of TOCs in the past few years. As we both know XC won't take on any more stock used or new because Arriva ate notorious tight wads.

 

[DarloRich]

As we both know XC won't take on any more stock used or new because Arriva ate notorious tight wads.

add this as point three to the agreement list above!

 

[Doomotron]

I think that the 2020 rules have to be postponed until at least 2022 or the railways aren't going to be running well, if at all. Alternatively, to soften the blow, maybe some 185s for the slower routes? I don't know. If we get really desperate, 319s for the electrified routes? Honestly I have no idea.

Fingers crossed that it all turns out well...

 

[gimmea50anyday]

well at this rate the existing workload isn't going to be ready in time so something needs to be done to increase throughput.

and I said a 6 or 7 car is more sprightly than 9. Not a 6 or 7 will keep up with a voyager. However VXC showed a 5 car voyager CAN keep voyager timings. In fact the available total horse power of 4500 is better than a voyager's 3750. The voyager however has the edge due to the more efficient modern electronics and AC traction package over the DC traction equipment of a HST which makes the power at rail very similar.

 

[delt1c]

If rolling stock was that cheap to lease and operate, Cross Country wouldn't have the crowding issues now. It does, so it isn't.

The bottom line for private companies is profit. So why would a company lease and pay access charges for additional stock when they can squeeze everyone one into existing stock.
Difference between privatisation and nationalisation. One is run for shareholders other is run for benifit of the country.

 

[transmanche]

As we both know XC won't take on any more stock used or new because Arriva ate notorious tight wads.

Would it be any different if Abellio, First, Stagecoach, or AN Other were running the franchise? I seriously doubt it...

 

[Elecman]

How many carriages can be put together in a Voyager / Meridien unit ? Ie can they be patched upto 7-9 carriages (powered as necessary ) using the stock that will become available from EMT in due course.

 

[hooverboy]

I think it's probably a better solution to endless derogations. This is potentially an expensive problem and a little parliamentary time seems like a cheaper option.

the solution would be DRS buys them and operates them as rescue/charter stock.

not officially classed as full mainline operation,so should secure derogation due to infrequent use(allegedly)

gives DRS an excuse to get shot of mk2's for something a bit more comfortable too.
could quite easily see hst short form on barrow/cumbria and wherry lines.They've already said they are looking at retiring some of their older locos

37/47's saving grace might be they are capable of heavy haul,but 20's and 31's I think are definitely for the knackers yard.Considering DRS and network rail use both in T+T formation,then HST can quite easily meet and beat those.

 

[43096]

Well Albert Einstein stated that a definition of idiocy is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

Where’s the “like” button?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many carriages can be put together in a Voyager / Meridien unit ? Ie can they be patched upto 7-9 carriages (powered as necessary ) using the stock that will become available from EMT in due course.

You can reform them, but doing so with 222s is not going to be as easy as they have a different TMS. If the 222s go to XC they will probably just use them as they are and run more trains doubled up.

 

[kje7812]

You can reform them, but doing so with 222s is not going to be as easy as they have a different TMS. If the 222s go to XC they will probably just use them as they are and run more trains doubled up.

If they reform some back as 9-car, you have train with about the same capacity as the XC HSTs.
Also the 222s have far too much first class for XC's needs so if you put 2+2 seating in the declassified ones, you gain a few more seats.