ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[jingsmonty]

The Edinburgh - Aberdeen HST service should be running before Dec..still scheduled to be the 1st, as far as I'm aware?

 

[Northhighland]

The training train only has 4 coaches & is definetly not fit for passenger traffic - a lot of the GWR seats are missing & the toilets aren't maintained (I'll leave that to the imagination...!). This coukd be fairly easily fixed, I suppose, but the other main issue is that the staff training is still ongoing - there just aren't enough crews to work a regular HST service & the Conductor training hasn't started yet! Edinburgh crews may work slam door stock, but no other depot does...

Would be good to get that 1st refurbished rake into service ASAP, though...as many as possible! Word is that there will be 2 HSTs in passenger service daily from Inverness from December. Doesn't help just now, but hopefully, this will be the last summer of overcrowded 170s on the HML.

Thanks for that, I suppose we just have to put up with it for the rest of the year. Hopefully Wabtec will speed up the delivery. Don't suppose that now with the 385's in service and the 365's performing well, there is any scope for 6 car 170's or more 170/158 combinations on the HML?

 

[jingsmonty]

Thanks for that, I suppose we just have to put up with it for the rest of the year. Hopefully Wabtec will speed up the delivery. Don't suppose that now with the 385's in service and the 365's performing well, there is any scope for 6 car 170's or more 170/158 combinations on the HML?

I think there is still a shortage of diesel rolling stock throughout Scotrail, it would be good if some HML services could be strengthened - only issue is that some of the trains have fairly quick turnarounds (particularly the 170 services - the 170 that makes the 1045 Inverness to Edinburgh is scheduled to arrive into Inverness at 1040, which is ridiculous - this may change once the Dyce to Aberdeen line reopens). Other issue is that Newtonmore can only take a 5 car & Up platform at Dalwhinnie can only take a 4 car).

The HML services could definetly do with strengthening though!

 

[scotraildriver]

Thanks for that, I suppose we just have to put up with it for the rest of the year. Hopefully Wabtec will speed up the delivery. Don't suppose that now with the 385's in service and the 365's performing well, there is any scope for 6 car 170's or more 170/158 combinations on the HML?

The 365s are performing anything but well. There have been problem after problem the last 2 weeks, 2 8 car sets failed completely yesterday- both at Croy bizarrely.

 

[jingsmonty]

One benefit to us being trained on HSTs is that if Scotrail ever decided to go for a Class 68/Mk5 combo in the future (or some other form of loco hauled coaching stock), the training may be easier to manage.

Converting from Clas 158/170 to HST is quite an in-depth programme, as we are learning, in effect, 2 pipe air braked hauled coaching stock & locos from scratch!

We'd have this experience to hand if we ever had to convert to another type of loco & coaches - which may shorten the training required.

On the flipside, if we were training on Class 802, or some other multiple unit, the training would be quicker - probably just a simple conversion course.

On the other hand, learning to drive an HST has been interesting & good fun (my own personal & slightly rail geeky view!!l.

 

[mic505]

Half of LNER's MK4 sets will be off-lease in 12 months time lol.

 

[Rail Blues]

Half of LNER's MK4 sets will be off-lease in 12 months time lol.

And your point is?

 

[Darandio]

And your point is?

Presumably it was in response to...

One benefit to us being trained on HSTs is that if Scotrail ever decided to go for a Class 68/Mk5 combo in the future (or some other form of loco hauled coaching stock), the training may be easier to manage.

 

[jingsmonty]

Mk 4 coaches coming off-lease, but what would haul them? I think 2+4/2+5 fully refurbished & DDA compliant Mk 3 coaches would be a superior product anyway. Mk 4 coaches may ride better at speed, but the tapered body design & seat layout makes the Mk 3 (imho!) a nicer coach to travel in.

Mk 4 + Class 68 wouldn't have the performance of a short formed HST anyway...only way round that is if the HML/East Coast lines get electrified within the next year or 2....about as likely as a new high speed line...

W
No point saying 'what if' - Scotrail have nailed their colours to the HST mast & that's it....at least for a good few years, at least

 

[mic505]

At least the MK4 coaches have power operated doors, accessible toilets with CET tanks. Ok they may be heavier and have different guage profile than the MK3's, but they are virtually PRM compliant. Hence Transport for Wales are replacing they loco-hauled MK3 sets by the end of next year.

 

[Aictos]

I do have one question about the HSTs used by Scotrail especially the 4 car sets, if the demand outstrips supply as no doubt will happen will Scotrail be happy to lengthen the HSTs to 6 coaches?

 

[AngusH]

Could a new scotrail hst operate in a partially refurbished state?

Have one fully compliant refurbished coach with powered doors etc, plus several un-refurbished coaches?

I'm guessing not?

(this is assuming delays in refurb)

 

[Rail Blues]

I do have one question about the HSTs used by Scotrail especially the 4 car sets, if the demand outstrips supply as no doubt will happen will Scotrail be happy to lengthen the HSTs to 6 coaches?

What makes you so certain that demand will outstrip supply to such an extent that 140 odd seats will be needed, not to mention the impact that would have on fuel economy, acceleration etc? I'd venture that normal passengers whilst welcoming a more inter city ambience aren't quite having multiple orgasms in the way some folk are about 40 year old trains rocking up. If the HSTs prove less reliable in service than the trains they replace, then it could have a negative effect on ridership.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Could a new scotrail hst operate in a partially refurbished state?

Have one fully compliant refurbished coach with powered doors etc, plus several un-refurbished coaches?

I'm guessing not?

(this is assuming delays in refurb)

There's not a lot of point doing only some power doors. The accessibility requirements are for all passengers, even those who don't require accessible seating. Unless every passenger door is done, the train won't be compliant.

 

[Indigo Soup]

I do have one question about the HSTs used by Scotrail especially the 4 car sets, if the demand outstrips supply as no doubt will happen will Scotrail be happy to lengthen the HSTs to 6 coaches?

It's certainly seen as a possibility. I believe that the deployment plan will see the 2+5 sets on Central Belt services and the 2+4 sets on Aberdeen-Inverness, where demand is less. Future lengthening to 2+6 hasn't been ruled out if demand grows, but isn't seen as necessary at first.

 

[jingsmonty]

Could a new scotrail hst operate in a partially refurbished state?

Have one fully compliant refurbished coach with powered doors etc, plus several un-refurbished coaches?

I'm guessing not?

(this is assuming delays in refurb)

I seriously doubt it - there's an electrical connection for the door interlocks for the power doors to prevent the power cars taking power if the doors are open - this would have to be isolated to work with slam doors.

I think the coaches are refurbished as a complete set

 

[ld0595]

I do have one question about the HSTs used by Scotrail especially the 4 car sets, if the demand outstrips supply as no doubt will happen will Scotrail be happy to lengthen the HSTs to 6 coaches?

According to the rolling stock plan in the franchise agreement, there will be at least two 6-car sets in operation by December 2022. See page 21 here. I'm sure it will be possible to extend additional sets if need be, but it's worth remembering that many of the routes that the HSTs will operate on will have additional services in the future too (such as the new Dundee to Glasgow stopper, Aberdeen crossrail etc) which will certainly take some pressure off the intercity services.

 

[jingsmonty]

At least the MK4 coaches have power operated doors, accessible toilets with CET tanks. Ok they may be heavier and have different guage profile than the MK3's, but they are virtually PRM compliant. Hence Transport for Wales are replacing they loco-hauled MK3 sets by the end of next year.

Which the refurbished Mk 3 coaches will also have.....

 

[Rail Blues]

Which the refurbished Mk 3 coaches will also have.....

If and when the refurbishment programme is finished.

 

[jingsmonty]

First Scotrail rake almost completed & heading North. I believe GWR already hace their 1st rake in service? X country also have a rake as well...safe to say they are on their way, just a lot slower than hoped for.

There is very little chance of Scotrail suddenly abandoning the HST project & waiting for Mk 4 coaches....and restarting all the staff training as well

 

[Northhighland]

What makes you so certain that demand will outstrip supply to such an extent that 140 odd seats will be needed, not to mention the impact that would have on fuel economy, acceleration etc? I'd venture that normal passengers whilst welcoming a more inter city ambience aren't quite having multiple orgasms in the way some folk are about 40 year old trains rocking up. If the HSTs prove less reliable in service than the trains they replace, then it could have a negative effect on ridership.

Not so sure you understand the situation fully. I am a regular Inverness to Edinburgh / Glasgow traveller. The situation at present is many people who regularly travel do not use the train because of the high cost and poor service. Many drive if they can’t use the East Coast HST service. Most people will try to use that train if they can as it is more comfortable and has capacity. When HST comes into service it is perfectly possible there will be an increase in demand.

 

[TheMuttley]

Not so sure you understand the situation fully. I am a regular Inverness to Edinburgh / Glasgow traveller. The situation at present is many people who regularly travel do not use the train because of the high cost and poor service. Many drive if they can’t use the East Coast HST service. Most people will try to use that train if they can as it is more comfortable and has capacity. When HST comes into service it is perfectly possible there will be an increase in demand.

I agree entirely - one of the major benefits of the upgrades in comfort, journey times and capacity is that this will make rail travel a more viable option (especially for some of the more "northern" routes), surely, based on the regular chorus of complaints from passengers (or potential passengers)? I would argue that there is a strong probability that the upgrade will result in significant growth in passenger numbers for those reasons alone (quite aside from any underlying growth factors), from the potential passengers who already would take the train presently but are currently unable (or dissuaded from doing so) due to issues which the upgrade programme should solve (in theory).

 

[Rail Blues]

I agree entirely - one of the major benefits of the upgrades in comfort, journey times and capacity is that this will make rail travel a more viable option (especially for some of the more "northern" routes), surely, based on the regular chorus of complaints from passengers (or potential passengers)? I would argue that there is a strong probability that the upgrade will result in significant growth in passenger numbers for those reasons alone (quite aside from any underlying growth factors), from the potential passengers who already would take the train presently but are currently unable (or dissuaded from doing so) due to issues which the upgrade programme should solve (in theory).

I understand the situation thanks, I live in the central belt myself. I agree there's an untapped market, but I don't think HSTs will prove to be the panacea for all ills, especially given their age and reliability (or lack thereof) they won't prove the shot in the arm that's needed or prove to be the driver of growth. Yes an intercity service is needed, but using HSTs is the wrong answer in my opinion. I see this as a missed opportunity and something that will be a hard sell to the travelling public.

Given that there's already rumblings about '40 year cast offs, not good enough for passengers in England' it will only take a few breakdowns for that to solidify into the idea that the service cannot be relied upon.

 

[TheMuttley]

Given that there's already rumblings about '40 year cast offs, not good enough for England' it will only take a few breakdowns for that to solidify into the idea that the service cannot be relied upon.

True, that's my only concern here. My only "experience" (using that term very loosely, indeed) of HSTs is in relation to east coast (LNER) sets which I understood had built up a reputation for being very reliable. However, having read this thread, many "in the know" people seem to differentiate these from the sets which Scotrail are inheriting from GWR (either in terms of technical specification or maintenance etc). I agree, that a few unfortunately timed breakdowns will not do Scotrail any favours (especially on the back of the 385 delays, which, to be fair, were not Scotrail's fault), which means I think it would be safer for them to focus on getting it right, first time, and introduce reliable sets slowly, rather than risk reliability to meet capacity demands.

 

[Bikeman78]

The 365s are performing anything but well. There have been problem after problem the last 2 weeks, 2 8 car sets failed completely yesterday- both at Croy bizarrely.

I'm sure that will improve once people get used to them. Hornsey had 38 diagrams for 40 units. This was usually achieved except when sets were out of traffic long term. At various times there was a unit out of traffic following a level crossing prang. If this coincided with a unit being away for overhaul then it left no other spares.

 

[jingsmonty]

Not so sure you understand the situation fully. I am a regular Inverness to Edinburgh / Glasgow traveller. The situation at present is many people who regularly travel do not use the train because of the high cost and poor service. Many drive if they can’t use the East Coast HST service. Most people will try to use that train if they can as it is more comfortable and has capacity. When HST comes into service it is perfectly possible there will be an increase in demand.

Exactly this - it has long been known that people travelling South from Inverness (particularly regular business travellers) will travel on the LNER Highland Chieftain to Edinburgh, rather than a Scotrail 170. The walk up fare is the same & (particularly for 1st class passengers), the service is far superior.

I'm sure this (which was known well before the current franchise was awarded) would have influenced Abellio's decision to go with HST. True, a newer alternative may have been viable too (I believe the National Express bid was new loco hauled coaches, presumably Class 68 + Mk 5), but I doubt that would have been able to compete with the performance of an short formed HST rake.

We need to get away from the '40 Year old cast offs' argument - the trains are quite different to when they were introduced (modern engines, for one thing) and surely any major reliability issues will have been sorted by now! A fully refurbished (to a high standard) HST is, IMHO, more than the equal of anything modern & self propelled.

I do agree that the press will jump on any failures very quickly - but we shouldn't let mis-informed media detract from what is going to be an excellent train - it is exactly what, particularly, the HML needs!

I'd have liked a bit more to have been done with using the vast storage space in the luggage vans of the power cars, however - why not have a 'checked luggage facility' for end to end passengers? The luggage van is secure and bikes will be stored there for end to end journeys too. I believe East Coast/Virgin/LNER do/did the same thing?

 

[Stoney1979]

Exactly this - it has long been known that people travelling South from Inverness (particularly regular business travellers) will travel on the LNER Highland Chieftain to Edinburgh, rather than a Scotrail 170. The walk up fare is the same & (particularly for 1st class passengers), the service is far superior.

I'm sure this (which was known well before the current franchise was awarded) would have influenced Abellio's decision to go with HST. True, a newer alternative may have been viable too (I believe the National Express bid was new loco hauled coaches, presumably Class 68 + Mk 5), but I doubt that would have been able to compete with the performance of an short formed HST rake.

We need to get away from the '40 Year old cast offs' argument - the trains are quite different to when they were introduced (modern engines, for one thing) and surely any major reliability issues will have been sorted by now! A fully refurbished (to a high standard) HST is, IMHO, more than the equal of anything modern & self propelled.

I do agree that the press will jump on any failures very quickly - but we shouldn't let mis-informed media detract from what is going to be an excellent train - it is exactly what, particularly, the HML needs!

I'd have liked a bit more to have been done with using the vast storage space in the luggage vans of the power cars, however - why not have a 'checked luggage facility' for end to end passengers? The luggage van is secure and bikes will be stored there for end to end journeys too. I believe East Coast/Virgin/LNER do/did the same thing?

Very well put. The argument about "40 year old trains" reminds me of a sketch from Only Fools and Horses when Trigger says his "….old broom as only had 17 new heads and 14 new handles". Time will tell of course, but common sense suggests that if the refurbs are done to a high quality, and proper maintenance takes place, then reliability should not be a problem unless or until any components that can't be replaced or maintained fail. I have no detailed knowledge of this but, I guess, this could be factors such as metal fatigue within the structures of the vehicles which finally ends their service lives.

As a more general principle, past performance is not necessarily an indicator of future performance - as a teacher this is something which is core to how I think about pupils that come my way.

 

[Paul Kerr]

I agree there's an untapped market, but I don't think HSTs will prove to be the panacea for all ills, especially given their age and reliability (or lack thereof) they won't prove the shot in the arm that's needed or prove to be the driver of growth. Yes an intercity service is needed, but using HSTs is the wrong answer in my opinion. I see this as a missed opportunity and something that will be a hard sell to the travelling public.

So what would you have gone with? Bimodes are unproven at this point and as has been brought out by the power to mass ratios they won't make much of a difference to the present train timings. Voyagers? Cramped and noisy (not to mention the smell), and again the short formed HST blows a class 221 out of the water due to the very heavy coaches on the Voyager (53+ tonnes vs 33 tonnes for a Mk3). Unless you went for a lighter class 220, but those have the same seating capacity as a Class 170 so the overcrowding would be just as bad as it is today. That's without even considering the noise and vibration from underfloor engines, which is only going to get worse as they age further. The only thing that would come close to an HST in my mind would be a Class 68 and short LHCS rake. The HST might not be perfect but if availability of the sets can be maintained, I don't see anything that beats it in terms of all-round performance and comfort.

 

[mullac30]

So what would you have gone with? Bimodes are unproven at this point and as has been brought out by the power to mass ratios they won't make much of a difference to the present train timings. Voyagers? Cramped and noisy (not to mention the smell), and again the short formed HST blows a class 221 out of the water due to the very heavy coaches on the Voyager (53+ tonnes vs 33 tonnes for a Mk3). Unless you went for a lighter class 220, but those have the same seating capacity as a Class 170 so the overcrowding would be just as bad as it is today. That's without even considering the noise and vibration from underfloor engines, which is only going to get worse as they age further. The only thing that would come close to an HST in my mind would be a Class 68 and short LHCS rake. The HST might not be perfect but if availability of the sets can be maintained, I don't see anything that beats it in terms of all-round performance and comfort.

A 4 car Stadler Class 755 doesn't have underfloor engines and will accelerate better than a 4 car HST, and it is possible to add things like sealed vestibules to them.

 

[jingsmonty]

So what would you have gone with? Bimodes are unproven at this point and as has been brought out by the power to mass ratios they won't make much of a difference to the present train timings. Voyagers? Cramped and noisy (not to mention the smell), and again the short formed HST blows a class 221 out of the water due to the very heavy coaches on the Voyager (53+ tonnes vs 33 tonnes for a Mk3). Unless you went for a lighter class 220, but those have the same seating capacity as a Class 170 so the overcrowding would be just as bad as it is today. That's without even considering the noise and vibration from underfloor engines, which is only going to get worse as they age further. The only thing that would come close to an HST in my mind would be a Class 68 and short LHCS rake. The HST might not be perfect but if availability of the sets can be maintained, I don't see anything that beats it in terms of all-round performance and comfort.

Exactly - a fully refurbished DDA compliant Mk3 is the equal of any modern train, imho (& better than most of them!).

Probably said this already, but I've made a few trips on the Inverness training train - it just reminded me what a great way to travel a Mk 3/HST really is! The aircon works (unlike most 158s & a lot of 170s), lots of space for luggage, etc, very quiet & smooth riding. And this is in unrefurbished GWR coaches....