ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Clansman, 12 Nov 2016.

  1. Clansman

    Clansman Established Member

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    Operated Routes
    Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen/Inverness
    Aberdeen to Inverness

    Refurbishment Details
    See original thread post below

    Refurbished Sets Delivery Progress


    Refurbishment Progress
    Time Scale
    Severley Delayed - Latest revised date of all sets completed by December 2019 will not be met. 7 sets now completed and delivered as of 09/08/2019

    Fleet Numberings
    http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/HST+ScotRail+Fleet

    Diagrams
    https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scotrail-inter7city-hst-diagrams.171933/

    Power Car Liveries
    http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+43+Inter7City+Relivery

    Specific Discussions
    Onboard Catering
    Diagrams
    Power Car Naming
    Trip Reports

    Alternatives to HSTs:
    General Discussion
    Class 68 LHCS
    Class 222s
    Class 800s

    A close friend of mine came across a set of documents lying on the table in a staff bothy regarding in-depth details of the refurbishment plan for the Scotrail HST fleet.
    I can't find any released PDFs online nor on this forum, so I've started this thread dedicated to the Scotrail HST arrival and refurbishment.

    Here's the details within the documents which I've taken the time to type up, and I've have attached the images from them which contain renders, seating plans, and statistics charts;


    Update:
    Details now confirmed regarding in-depth specifications for ScotRail's HSTs, confirming all of the above.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: 12 Sep 2019
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  3. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

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    Your friend certainly made an interesting find there. I don't know if I've maybe not read the right threads but some of those details were new to me so thanks for posting it.
     
  4. Clansman

    Clansman Established Member

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    No problem.

    I knew it was interesting right away, as it contained more specific information rather than a generalised overview found on the Scotrail website and various media sources. The renders and seating plans are definitely a first on these forums.

    Not too pleased that the Grammar seating is being retained but hopefully with the right legroom and table space I will see them in a different light than on the cramped 158s. I've not experienced the new GWR first class seats so I can't really say anything about Scotrail's decision to retain them other than I'd rather of seen similar seats to XC but in blue rather than leather, which seems to be the up in coming norm for TOCs these days.

    As GWR Mk3 interiors don't have the mid carriage divider, it won't exactly feel intercity like as the seating plans show an inconsistent layout of tables (ie one sitting in middle alignment to 2 rows of seats opposite) in the middle of the carriage which proves that there won't be any division. As a result of this there won't be perfect window alignment with a lot of seats compared to previously, which kind of counters Abellio's scenic intercity trains idea. Hopefully this could be altered in due course but will probably be very unlikely. Baffles me why they wouldn't have a consistent layout as perfectly possible, with tables similar to that on VTEC trains aligned with windows, rather than sub standard re used tables with little legroom from GWR.

    At least the first class seats have perfect window alignment for each seat though. The buffet car looks to have a complete rebuild as the seating plans show us inverted configuration in the Scotrail units seats than on other Mk3s; the single row of first class seats normally sits on the side where the buffet car aisle is, so this hints that a first class carriage could be converted into a buffet, rather than a reconfiguration of a buffet car (unless Scotrail switched the layout to accommodate self serving facilities in an appropriate place; probably works out better with flooring material).

    Overall I'm satisfied with the plans on the whole and I just hope it all plays out to plan as specified :)
     
    Last edited: 12 Nov 2016
  5. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    Disappointing they are retaining those seats... They aren't really up to scratch in terms of view in their current layout.

    Otherwise looking great.
     
  6. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    At least it looks like they return of more tables for standard class rather than the current airline seating
     
  7. 47802

    47802 On Moderation

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    So they have opted to get rid of the TGS which I always thought was likely despite some others on here telling me otherwise.

    I suppose their might some concern about the standard class seating capacity on the 4 car will it be enough?

    Also if your a wheelchair user looks like you wont be travelling 1st class.
     
    Last edited: 12 Nov 2016
  8. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    There's been an increase in the number of five car sets compared to four car ones, so that's good news.

    It makes sense that they're retaining the existing Grammar seats; they're of a modern and comfortable design that should be absolutely fine in the lower density layout Scotrail have specified.

    Thanks for posting this Clansman, it's good to see some confirmed details of these trains.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    British Rail were looking to move the guard's office to a mid-train position just over twenty years ago when they created a couple of concept vehicles for the next HST refurbishment; it's surprising that there has been little movement away from the TGS in the intervening two decades of privatisation (though the guard will still be based at one end of the train in this layout - just the opposite end to current practice!).
     
    Last edited: 12 Nov 2016
  9. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    That's true on the existing Scotrail 170s and 158s.
     
  10. IKB

    IKB Member

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    Interesting post, thanks for sharing.

    I'm not familiar with the 158 Grammar seats...but they can't be any worse than the existing high backed airline seats FGW use in standard?

    Good to see more tables in Standard.

    Although it states they're retaining the seats in 1st class (a sensible move as they're really good), the diagrams above suggests the row of single seats will have at least four pairs reformed around a table. Currently FGW 1st only has two pairs around a table per coach, the rest being airline.
     
    Last edited: 12 Nov 2016
  11. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    They're exactly the same type of seat.
     
  12. IKB

    IKB Member

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    I was just having a Google...yes it would appear so. Disappointing. Hardly the best choice for enjoying the panoramas of Scotland.
     
  13. Blindtraveler

    Blindtraveler Established Member

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    Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
    I think im alone in liking the grammer seating.

    also as I suspected its more of a refresh than a refurb for the internals

    good that cet toilets are being fitted. Is this an industry first though, PIS on an HST?
     
  14. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    You are not alone.
     
  15. IKB

    IKB Member

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    Depends what you're comparing them against though, no?

    Compared to the rock hard ironing boards now being introduced on GTR 700s I'd say you're right.

    But compared to the low density, low backed and cushioned seats they replaced (still to be found on Greater Anglia, East Mids & GC MK3s) I fail to see how the Grammar seat is an improvement.
     
  16. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    ScotRail don't have much choice, really, as they couldn't go back in time to the IC70s as they don't meet modern standards. You can keep them in existing vehicles but can't go backwards, unfortunately.

    Big thanks to the OP on publishing the details here, answers a lot of questions.
     
  17. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    No, you're not the only one. :) I don't like the high density layout that GWR have got them in on their HSTs, but I like them quite well on the ATW, EMT and Scotrail class 158s that they're fitted to - I envisage that they'll be entirely suitable on Scotrail's HSTs.
     
  18. fgwrich

    fgwrich Established Member

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    I agree with you both. I did St Erth to Reading over summer in them and found them to be entirely comfortable, and I still do even on the shorter regular journeys I take on them between Newton Abbot and Exeter and Reading and Paddington. They will be perfectly suitable for journey's in Scotland and on ScotRail.

    I'm surprised about the retention of the GWR First Class leather seats though - Surely, just as GWR hardly want to leave them to the retrograde offerings provided in the IEP, ScotRail want something that will show up their over First Class offerings!

    I don't agree with the bit about the IC70s either - I have used a few of the Chiltern sets recently, and just as the former First Class IC70s in the Night Rivera are doing (and badly), I find them too low, becoming firm and the springs are starting to come through again. I don't find it a pleasant journey using the IC70s on the Night Rivera anymore, and frankly think they should be banished to the history books - Like the Paxman Valenta engines, they were fine when they first came about, but 30+ years later are tired and in need of replacement.

    As they are to include a Mini buffet of sorts, Will they be converting former TFs or TSMBs (FGWs Mini Buffets)? And a thanks to the OP for publishing the details from me as well!
     
  19. 47802

    47802 On Moderation

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    Well as the buffet appears to be completely new assembly and it says they will be retaining existing carpets, curtains and seats in First that strongly suggest to me that they will be modifying TFs and not TSMBs
     
  20. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    There is an issue with the TSMBs as a) there aren't enough of them to cover the ScotRail requirement and b) they are Porterbrook owned, when ScotRail are taking sets from Angel (although I guess a vehicle swap could be arranged).

    I really wouldn't like to predict which trailers will become the catering vehicles - could be anything!
     
  21. fgwrich

    fgwrich Established Member

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    Ah, Thanks for clearing that one up. Set swaps could be possible, but as pointed out the buffet looks to be a new set up and so therefore would not require the TSMBs. I'll admit to being a little bit surprised to see everything including the carpets and curtains be retained by ScotRail though - They clearly find the GWR/FGW Refurbishment of sufficient high quality enough to retain it which is understandable!

    Actually, come to think of it, if GWR Does end up retaining short HST sets in the near future, the TC & TSMB would be a suitable candidate for retention along with the TGS. I.E TGS,TSD,TS, TSMB,TC?.
     
  22. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    TBH, I think it is unlikely GWR would retain TSMB and TC vehicles, as the 2+4 sets are intended to replace 150s/158s on the former Wessex longer distance services. I think it is more likely they'll be TGS-TSD-TS-TS.

    Thinking about it a bit more, I suspect the ScotRail buffets will be converted from either TF or TRFB vehicles.
     
    Last edited: 12 Nov 2016
  23. 47802

    47802 On Moderation

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    I'm a little surprised they are retaining the carpets in first, given the routes for the GW mini HST's which I think are supposed to be now working I doubt there will be any catering or 1st class, (you can always have a trolley of course) and expect it will be a minimum cost solution so maybe the TGS will be retained on the GWR sets.

    Mind you could argue not replacing the carpet in First on the Scotrail sets smacks of penny pinching it also looks as though some of the redundant toilets could be just locked out of use rather than removed and used as additional space or luggage racks, bike racks etc.
     
    Last edited: 12 Nov 2016
  24. gingerheid

    gingerheid Member

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    Amazing leak!
     
  25. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    If it's in good condition and of the right colour, not replacing it means money can be spent elsewhere, perhaps on something that passengers won't be tracking mud (or worse!) all over.
     
  26. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I like them a lot too. My favourite current Standard class seat, indeed. FWIW, I do really like the GWR HST refurb (First colours - the GWR grey seating looks terrible and will get filthy quickly) - they just spoilt it with the daylight lighting. Indeed, shame ScotRail don't want to do something more creative than just swap the fluorescents for LED tubes - you can do some wonderfully welcoming, atmospheric lighting using LEDs - just swapping like for like is a bit lazy.

    Are you both quite tall? They seem to very much suit the taller traveller, offering proper head support rather than the more usual back-of-the-shoulders support, while because of the shape of the top they aren't *too* claustrophobic.

    I similarly quite like the "ironing boards" for seating on a local train for the same reason.

    Overall the refurb looks good to me, though I think window alignment should maybe be tweaked a little. Surprised to see a proper buffet, too!

    As the bike space is a converted bog, I'd suggest converting the other disused bog to bikes, allowing 4 rather than 2.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    While it's common on buses and coaches, why don't the railway ever seem to use stylish printed vinyl? Wood effect laminate style seems particularly classy, and needn't get as mucky as carpet does because you just need to mop it out.

    Vinyl on the railway always seems to be that hospital-style flecked type which doesn't give for a quality feel.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Given that the primary benefit of First Class is a wider seat with more legroom, this doesn't seem to be a massive problem, given that a wheelchair user brings their own, umm, seat.

    The other benefits (other than I suppose a quieter environment) can be purchased from the buffet, and you'd have to purchase a lot of it to make the fare difference up on food and drink alone assuming indeed ScotRail will offer any freebies - I'd guess staff would make a "reasonable adjustment" and serve a wheelchair user at their "seat".
     
    Last edited: 12 Nov 2016
  27. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    I'm 5' 11", which I feel puts me towards the top end of average for the modern man. I can get comfortable in an IC70 seat no bother, but I do feel that the upper back support offered by the Grammar seats is superior - no encouragement to slouch as with the low back of an IC70.
     
    Last edited: 12 Nov 2016
  28. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    As I'm quite broad and have large legs, I can't do anything other than slouch in an IC70, and even then I have to take everything out of my pockets. Nasty things.
     
  29. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    181cm myself (5' 11" in old money) and the IC70 is very comfortable - for a while. The Grammar seat as fitted in the Inverness 158s is almost as comfortable, but I can sit in it for much longer without it becoming uncomfortable.

    So I'd take the IC70 for anything up to 30 minutes, and the Grammar for anything longer.
     
  30. Clansman

    Clansman Established Member

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    That's what I thought as well. The seating configuration seems to show that. I don't think removing part of the buffet from a TSMB to accommodate extra first class seats would weigh up to the cost of constructing an entirely new assembly in 1/3 of a TF.
     
    Last edited: 12 Nov 2016
  31. Rob F

    Rob F Member

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    What is the point of the limited number of 4 trailer sets. Why not have a common 5 car fleet, better for capacity and better for diagramming?

    Rob
     

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