ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

Clansman

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Aberdeen to Inverness

Refurbishment Details
See original thread post below

Refurbished Sets Delivery Progress
4 Carriage Sets
HA26 - Delivered 17/08/2018
HA25 - Delivered 11/01/2019
HA24 - Delivered 22/03/2019
HA23 - Delivered 04/05/2019
HA22 - Delivered 27/05/2019
HA21 - Delivered 03/07/2019
HA20 - Delivered 09/08/2019
HA19 - Delivered 14/11/2019
HA18 - Delivered 10/12/2019
HA17 - Delivered 21/12/2019
HA16 - Delivered 29/01/2020
HA15 - Delivered 11/02/2020
HA14 - Delivered 21/02/2020
HA13 - Delivered 12/03/2020
HA12 - Delivered 08/04/2020

5 Carriage Sets
None yet refurbished or delivered.

All sets will initially be in service as four car sets, with fifth cars being added to each unit at a later date.
Refurbishment Progress
Full HST Sets
HA12 to HA26 - Completed
HA01, HA02, HA04, HA06, HA07 to HA11 - Mk3s In the process of being refurbished at Wabtec Doncaster or being stored at Ely awaiting refurbishment

HA03, HA05, HA31 to HA33 - Not yet refurbished (No longer in service as Classic sets)

Individual Power Cars
55 power cars in total;

SRIC7 colours: 54
ex FGW colours: 1


Power cars in Scotland, both refurbished and unrefurbished, are used for staff training and are also used interchangabley in passenger service on 'Classic' sets.
Time Scale
Severley Delayed - Latest revised date of all sets completed by December 2019 will not be met. 10 sets now completed and delivered as of 21/12/2019

Fleet Numberings
http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/HST+ScotRail+Fleet

Diagrams
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scotrail-inter7city-hst-diagrams.171933/

Power Car Liveries
http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+43+Inter7City+Relivery

Specific Discussions
Onboard Catering
Diagrams
Power Car Naming
Trip Reports

Alternatives to HSTs:
General Discussion
Class 68 LHCS
Class 222s
Class 800s

A close friend of mine came across a set of documents lying on the table in a staff bothy regarding in-depth details of the refurbishment plan for the Scotrail HST fleet.
I can't find any released PDFs online nor on this forum, so I've started this thread dedicated to the Scotrail HST arrival and refurbishment.

Here's the details within the documents which I've taken the time to type up, and I've have attached the images from them which contain renders, seating plans, and statistics charts;

[2] Summary of the fleet
HST fleet comprising of 121 coaches and 54 power cars owned by Angel Trains and cascaded from Great Western Railway from late 2017.

Fleets will be formed into;
-17 x 5 coach with 32 (4 priority) first class seats & 278 (32 priority) standard class seats
-9 x 4 car trains with 32 (4 priority) first class seats & 206 (24 priority) standard class seats
-2 x spare power cars

5 coach formation;
1 x TFC - First class with catering provision and crew compartment,
1 x TSD - Standard class with disabled facilities, including UAT toilet,
1 x TSB - Standard class with cycle storage for two bikes,
2 x TS - Standard class

4 coach formation;
1 x TFC - First class with catering provision and crew compartment,
1 x TSD - Standard class with disabled facilities, including UAT toilet,
1 x TSB - Standard class with cycle storage for two bikes,
1 x TS - Standard class

Refurbishment programme being carried out by Wabtec Doncaster (coaches) and Brush Loughborough (power cars) from late 2017 through to May 2019


[3] Train formation and seating plans (Attached)

[4] First Class
-The existing leather seats, carpets & curtains are retained
-The GWR headrest logo on the seats, body end panel & centre partition will be replaced
-The existing tables are retained and have 1 x 240v socket and 1 x USB port per pair of seats
-Saloon lighting with LED tubes
-Large luggage stacks are provided at the end of the saloons
-Total of 32 seats with 4 designated as 'Priority'
-In addition to the catering area, there shall be provision for a small complementary self serving facility


[5] First Class interior layout (Attached)

[6] Catering and Guards' compartment
The following shall be provided in the catering & guards compartment;

-Coffee Machine
-3Kw hot water boiler
-Combination microwave oven
-Double width under counter refrigeration/chiller cabinet with glass doors
-Hand wash basin, hand towel dispenser & soap despenser
-Hot & cold water supply
-EPOS equipment space provision
-Train crew panic button facility
-Fire detector (heat) & fire blanket
-LED lighting
-Storage for up to two crew members personal belongings, including two crew bags & 3/4 length coats
-Public address & driver/guard communication handsets and equipment
-Crew seating
-Defect/repair book holder
-Guards PIS equipment controls to facilitate manual access to PIS display information

[7] Catering/Guards area concept (Attached)

[8] Standard Class
-The vehicles are fitted with "Grammar" seats, which are the same as fitted to the Inverness based Cl' 158 units (701-725)
-The seats are fitted with seat back fold down tables, armsrests and a 240v power socker per bay of seats at low level between the seats
-The seats and carpets will be replaced with Saltire branding
-Saloon interiors will be repainted including walls, window surrounds, end bulkheads, interior door headers, centre partitions & doors
-Luggage rack nosing shall be replaced if it is a moulded extrusion or cannot be repainted
-Luggage rack facia cloth shall be removed and painted
-Dado panels shall be painted or recovered
-Saloon lighting with LED tubes
-Large luggage stacks are provided at the end of the saloons


[9] Standard Class interior layout (Attached)

[10] PRM Facilities
-Each train will have two wheelchair spaces located in the TSD vehicle
-Call for aid functionality will be included using the automated PA announcement for train crew


[11] Vestibules (Attached)
-Floor covering will be renewed
-New grab poles providing compliance to the PRM-TSI standards will be fitted
-Square flat compact fluorescent tubes are fitted
-The existing emergency egress light shall be retained
-Vestibule will be painted including walls, gangway doors, ceilings, and any retained grab poles
-The existing bin assembly will be retained
-New electrical power operated exterior doors will be fitted


[12] Bicycle storage (Attached)
-The current proposal is to have space for two bikes in one vestibule end of the TSB coach
-There is provision for three bikes in each power car, which will require operational consideration due to platform lengths & station dwell times for the power car access


[13] Power Cars
-Corrosion works & relivery
-Cab improvement works - full repaint, refurbished drivers and second-mans seat
-Forward facing CCTV fitment


[14] Power Car layout (Attached)

[15] Power Car Desk
-ATP equipment isolated but left on-site
-Door interlock emergency brake override
-Door interlock isolation switch FFCCTV

[16] External power doors (Attached)
-Fitment of 'Vapour Stone' electric powered single leaf door with Wilee door control system
-Guards control panels at two doors in same vestibule in each vehicle
-Traction and brakes interlocked with all doors closed indication in Power Car cab
-Interlock temporary override plunger and permanent isolation switch in Power Car cab
-Out of service lock for each door
-Emergency Egress (Internal) and Access (External) Handle for each door
-Doors adjacent to catering area will not be converted, and will become emergency egress only


[17] Toilets & CET (Attached)
Each train will be fitted with new underframe mounted CET tanks

-Four coach trains will have three toilets - one PRM and two standard
-Five coach trains will have four toilets - one PRM and three standard
-New Semvac 'Mini MkII' vacuum toilets
-Existing water header tank - 450 per vehicle


[18] PIS
-New TrainFX PIS system (as being fitted to the Class 156 fleet)
-Saloon dot matrix display in centre of each vehicle
-Auto announcer functionality
-PA handset in three vehicles in each set
-Existing 'Gaitronics' equipment retained for crew comms from guards area to the Power Cars

Update:
Details now confirmed regarding in-depth specifications for ScotRail's HSTs, confirming all of the above.
 

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Cowley

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Your friend certainly made an interesting find there. I don't know if I've maybe not read the right threads but some of those details were new to me so thanks for posting it.
 

Clansman

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Your friend certainly made an interesting find there. I don't know if I've maybe not read the right threads but some of those details were new to me so thanks for posting it.
No problem.

I knew it was interesting right away, as it contained more specific information rather than a generalised overview found on the Scotrail website and various media sources. The renders and seating plans are definitely a first on these forums.

Not too pleased that the Grammar seating is being retained but hopefully with the right legroom and table space I will see them in a different light than on the cramped 158s. I've not experienced the new GWR first class seats so I can't really say anything about Scotrail's decision to retain them other than I'd rather of seen similar seats to XC but in blue rather than leather, which seems to be the up in coming norm for TOCs these days.

As GWR Mk3 interiors don't have the mid carriage divider, it won't exactly feel intercity like as the seating plans show an inconsistent layout of tables (ie one sitting in middle alignment to 2 rows of seats opposite) in the middle of the carriage which proves that there won't be any division. As a result of this there won't be perfect window alignment with a lot of seats compared to previously, which kind of counters Abellio's scenic intercity trains idea. Hopefully this could be altered in due course but will probably be very unlikely. Baffles me why they wouldn't have a consistent layout as perfectly possible, with tables similar to that on VTEC trains aligned with windows, rather than sub standard re used tables with little legroom from GWR.

At least the first class seats have perfect window alignment for each seat though. The buffet car looks to have a complete rebuild as the seating plans show us inverted configuration in the Scotrail units seats than on other Mk3s; the single row of first class seats normally sits on the side where the buffet car aisle is, so this hints that a first class carriage could be converted into a buffet, rather than a reconfiguration of a buffet car (unless Scotrail switched the layout to accommodate self serving facilities in an appropriate place; probably works out better with flooring material).

Overall I'm satisfied with the plans on the whole and I just hope it all plays out to plan as specified :)
 
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Starmill

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Disappointing they are retaining those seats... They aren't really up to scratch in terms of view in their current layout.

Otherwise looking great.
 

47802

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So they have opted to get rid of the TGS which I always thought was likely despite some others on here telling me otherwise.

I suppose their might some concern about the standard class seating capacity on the 4 car will it be enough?

Also if your a wheelchair user looks like you wont be travelling 1st class.
 
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sprinterguy

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There's been an increase in the number of five car sets compared to four car ones, so that's good news.

It makes sense that they're retaining the existing Grammar seats; they're of a modern and comfortable design that should be absolutely fine in the lower density layout Scotrail have specified.

Thanks for posting this Clansman, it's good to see some confirmed details of these trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So they have opted to get rid of the TGS which I always thought was likely despite some others on here telling me otherwise.
British Rail were looking to move the guard's office to a mid-train position just over twenty years ago when they created a couple of concept vehicles for the next HST refurbishment; it's surprising that there has been little movement away from the TGS in the intervening two decades of privatisation (though the guard will still be based at one end of the train in this layout - just the opposite end to current practice!).
 
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IKB

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Interesting post, thanks for sharing.

I'm not familiar with the 158 Grammar seats...but they can't be any worse than the existing high backed airline seats FGW use in standard?

Good to see more tables in Standard.

Although it states they're retaining the seats in 1st class (a sensible move as they're really good), the diagrams above suggests the row of single seats will have at least four pairs reformed around a table. Currently FGW 1st only has two pairs around a table per coach, the rest being airline.
 
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IKB

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I think im alone in liking the grammer seating.

also as I suspected its more of a refresh than a refurb for the internals

good that cet toilets are being fitted. Is this an industry first though, PIS on an HST?
Depends what you're comparing them against though, no?

Compared to the rock hard ironing boards now being introduced on GTR 700s I'd say you're right.

But compared to the low density, low backed and cushioned seats they replaced (still to be found on Greater Anglia, East Mids & GC MK3s) I fail to see how the Grammar seat is an improvement.
 

43096

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But compared to the low density, low backed and cushioned seats they replaced (still to be found on Greater Anglia, East Mids & GC MK3s) I fail to see how the Grammar seat is an improvement.
ScotRail don't have much choice, really, as they couldn't go back in time to the IC70s as they don't meet modern standards. You can keep them in existing vehicles but can't go backwards, unfortunately.

Big thanks to the OP on publishing the details here, answers a lot of questions.
 

sprinterguy

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I think im alone in liking the grammer seating.
No, you're not the only one. :) I don't like the high density layout that GWR have got them in on their HSTs, but I like them quite well on the ATW, EMT and Scotrail class 158s that they're fitted to - I envisage that they'll be entirely suitable on Scotrail's HSTs.
 

fgwrich

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ScotRail don't have much choice, really, as they couldn't go back in time to the IC70s as they don't meet modern standards. You can keep them in existing vehicles but can't go backwards, unfortunately.

Big thanks to the OP on publishing the details here, answers a lot of questions.
No, you're not the only one. :) I don't like the high density layout that GWR have got them in on their HSTs, but I like them quite well on the ATW, EMT and Scotrail class 158s that they're fitted to - I envisage that they'll be entirely suitable on Scotrail's HSTs.
I agree with you both. I did St Erth to Reading over summer in them and found them to be entirely comfortable, and I still do even on the shorter regular journeys I take on them between Newton Abbot and Exeter and Reading and Paddington. They will be perfectly suitable for journey's in Scotland and on ScotRail.

I'm surprised about the retention of the GWR First Class leather seats though - Surely, just as GWR hardly want to leave them to the retrograde offerings provided in the IEP, ScotRail want something that will show up their over First Class offerings!

I don't agree with the bit about the IC70s either - I have used a few of the Chiltern sets recently, and just as the former First Class IC70s in the Night Rivera are doing (and badly), I find them too low, becoming firm and the springs are starting to come through again. I don't find it a pleasant journey using the IC70s on the Night Rivera anymore, and frankly think they should be banished to the history books - Like the Paxman Valenta engines, they were fine when they first came about, but 30+ years later are tired and in need of replacement.

As they are to include a Mini buffet of sorts, Will they be converting former TFs or TSMBs (FGWs Mini Buffets)? And a thanks to the OP for publishing the details from me as well!
 

47802

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As they are to include a Mini buffet of sorts, Will they be converting former TFs or TSMBs (FGWs Mini Buffets)? And a thanks to the OP for publishing the details from me as well!
Well as the buffet appears to be completely new assembly and it says they will be retaining existing carpets, curtains and seats in First that strongly suggest to me that they will be modifying TFs and not TSMBs
 

43096

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As they are to include a Mini buffet of sorts, Will they be converting former TFs or TSMBs (FGWs Mini Buffets)? And a thanks to the OP for publishing the details from me as well!
There is an issue with the TSMBs as a) there aren't enough of them to cover the ScotRail requirement and b) they are Porterbrook owned, when ScotRail are taking sets from Angel (although I guess a vehicle swap could be arranged).

I really wouldn't like to predict which trailers will become the catering vehicles - could be anything!
 

fgwrich

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Well as the buffet appears to be completely new assembly and it says they will be retaining existing carpets, curtains and seats in First that strongly suggest to me that they will be modifying TFs and not TSMBs
There is an issue with the TSMBs as a) there aren't enough of them to cover the ScotRail requirement and b) they are Porterbrook owned, when ScotRail are taking sets from Angel (although I guess a vehicle swap could be arranged).

I really wouldn't like to predict which trailers will become the catering vehicles - could be anything!
Ah, Thanks for clearing that one up. Set swaps could be possible, but as pointed out the buffet looks to be a new set up and so therefore would not require the TSMBs. I'll admit to being a little bit surprised to see everything including the carpets and curtains be retained by ScotRail though - They clearly find the GWR/FGW Refurbishment of sufficient high quality enough to retain it which is understandable!

Actually, come to think of it, if GWR Does end up retaining short HST sets in the near future, the TC & TSMB would be a suitable candidate for retention along with the TGS. I.E TGS,TSD,TS, TSMB,TC?.
 

43096

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Actually, come to think of it, if GWR Does end up retaining short HST sets in the near future, the TC & TSMB would be a suitable candidate for retention along with the TGS. I.E TGS,TSD,TS, TSMB,TC?.
TBH, I think it is unlikely GWR would retain TSMB and TC vehicles, as the 2+4 sets are intended to replace 150s/158s on the former Wessex longer distance services. I think it is more likely they'll be TGS-TSD-TS-TS.

Thinking about it a bit more, I suspect the ScotRail buffets will be converted from either TF or TRFB vehicles.
 
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47802

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Ah, Thanks for clearing that one up. Set swaps could be possible, but as pointed out the buffet looks to be a new set up and so therefore would not require the TSMBs. I'll admit to being a little bit surprised to see everything including the carpets and curtains be retained by ScotRail though - They clearly find the GWR/FGW Refurbishment of sufficient high quality enough to retain it which is understandable!

Actually, come to think of it, if GWR Does end up retaining short HST sets in the near future, the TC & TSMB would be a suitable candidate for retention along with the TGS. I.E TGS,TSD,TS, TSMB,TC?.
I'm a little surprised they are retaining the carpets in first, given the routes for the GW mini HST's which I think are supposed to be now working I doubt there will be any catering or 1st class, (you can always have a trolley of course) and expect it will be a minimum cost solution so maybe the TGS will be retained on the GWR sets.

Mind you could argue not replacing the carpet in First on the Scotrail sets smacks of penny pinching it also looks as though some of the redundant toilets could be just locked out of use rather than removed and used as additional space or luggage racks, bike racks etc.
 
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najaB

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Mind you could argue not replacing the carpet in First on the Scotrail sets smacks of penny pinching...
If it's in good condition and of the right colour, not replacing it means money can be spent elsewhere, perhaps on something that passengers won't be tracking mud (or worse!) all over.
 

Bletchleyite

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No, you're not the only one. :) I don't like the high density layout that GWR have got them in on their HSTs, but I like them quite well on the ATW, EMT and Scotrail class 158s that they're fitted to - I envisage that they'll be entirely suitable on Scotrail's HSTs.
I like them a lot too. My favourite current Standard class seat, indeed. FWIW, I do really like the GWR HST refurb (First colours - the GWR grey seating looks terrible and will get filthy quickly) - they just spoilt it with the daylight lighting. Indeed, shame ScotRail don't want to do something more creative than just swap the fluorescents for LED tubes - you can do some wonderfully welcoming, atmospheric lighting using LEDs - just swapping like for like is a bit lazy.

Are you both quite tall? They seem to very much suit the taller traveller, offering proper head support rather than the more usual back-of-the-shoulders support, while because of the shape of the top they aren't *too* claustrophobic.

I similarly quite like the "ironing boards" for seating on a local train for the same reason.

Overall the refurb looks good to me, though I think window alignment should maybe be tweaked a little. Surprised to see a proper buffet, too!

As the bike space is a converted bog, I'd suggest converting the other disused bog to bikes, allowing 4 rather than 2.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If it's in good condition and of the right colour, not replacing it means money can be spent elsewhere, perhaps on something that passengers won't be tracking mud (or worse!) all over.
While it's common on buses and coaches, why don't the railway ever seem to use stylish printed vinyl? Wood effect laminate style seems particularly classy, and needn't get as mucky as carpet does because you just need to mop it out.

Vinyl on the railway always seems to be that hospital-style flecked type which doesn't give for a quality feel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also if your a wheelchair user looks like you wont be travelling 1st class.
Given that the primary benefit of First Class is a wider seat with more legroom, this doesn't seem to be a massive problem, given that a wheelchair user brings their own, umm, seat.

The other benefits (other than I suppose a quieter environment) can be purchased from the buffet, and you'd have to purchase a lot of it to make the fare difference up on food and drink alone assuming indeed ScotRail will offer any freebies - I'd guess staff would make a "reasonable adjustment" and serve a wheelchair user at their "seat".
 
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sprinterguy

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Are you both quite tall? They seem to very much suit the taller traveller, offering proper head support rather than the more usual back-of-the-shoulders support, while because of the shape of the top they aren't *too* claustrophobic".
I'm 5' 11", which I feel puts me towards the top end of average for the modern man. I can get comfortable in an IC70 seat no bother, but I do feel that the upper back support offered by the Grammar seats is superior - no encouragement to slouch as with the low back of an IC70.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I'm 5' 11", which I feel puts me towards the top end of average for the modern man. I can get comfortable in an IC70 seat no bother, but I do feel that the upper back support offered by the Grammar seats is superior - no encouragement to slouch as with to the low back of an IC70.
As I'm quite broad and have large legs, I can't do anything other than slouch in an IC70, and even then I have to take everything out of my pockets. Nasty things.
 

najaB

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181cm myself (5' 11" in old money) and the IC70 is very comfortable - for a while. The Grammar seat as fitted in the Inverness 158s is almost as comfortable, but I can sit in it for much longer without it becoming uncomfortable.

So I'd take the IC70 for anything up to 30 minutes, and the Grammar for anything longer.
 

Clansman

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Well as the buffet appears to be completely new assembly and it says they will be retaining existing carpets, curtains and seats in First that strongly suggest to me that they will be modifying TFs and not TSMBs

That's what I thought as well. The seating configuration seems to show that. I don't think removing part of the buffet from a TSMB to accommodate extra first class seats would weigh up to the cost of constructing an entirely new assembly in 1/3 of a TF.
 
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Rob F

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What is the point of the limited number of 4 trailer sets. Why not have a common 5 car fleet, better for capacity and better for diagramming?

Rob
 

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