ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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Rick1984

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But compared to the low density, low backed and cushioned seats they replaced (still to be found on Greater Anglia, East Mids & GC MK3s) I fail to see how the Grammar seat is an improvement.
Possibly legroom and not having that annoying armrest?
 

Bletchleyite

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Possibly legroom and not having that annoying armrest?
Quite. The IC70 is a terrible piece of design, unsuitable for anyone who isn't relatively slim (because of the fixed armrests) and doesn't have a short upper leg (as it wastes a lot of legroom being quite thick and having the table support in a stupid place).

It also makes getting into table seats highly awkward.
 

Rick1984

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Regarding the toilets, on Anglian sets the CET equipment can only fit in one end and the disused toilet is an equipment cuboard, so guess same here?
 
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47802

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Regarding the toilets, on Anglian sets the CET equipment can only fit in one end and the disused toilet is an equipment cuboard, so guess same here?
Possibly so although you think they might have marked it accordingly rather than disused Toilet.

On the First Class coach the disused Toilet will be replaced by the catering area, and the doors at the catering end wont be replaced with powered doors, all other carriages have what is described as a disused Toilet while the coach with the Bike Rack, has disused Toilet plus Bike Rack in other words no Toilet at all.
 
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XCTurbostar

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Great Information here. Will certainly be interesting to see how passengers view the HSTs being older than the DMU stock it will replace. Chiltern have done a fantastic job with this and I think ScotRail will as well.

Thanks,
Ross
 

tom1649

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I can't believe how many people hate my favourite seat design, the IC70. Everyone I travelled with used to agree on how comfortable they are/were. It's only in recent years I've heard much objection to them.

You do not get a decent view with Grammer seating, the backs are just too high.
 

43096

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I can't believe how many people hate my favourite seat design, the IC70. Everyone I travelled with used to agree on how comfortable they are/were. It's only in recent years I've heard much objection to them.

You do not get a decent view with Grammer seating, the backs are just too high.
Only issue I have with the IC70s is the armrests. Other than that they are perfect.
 

najaB

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So how about a slightly smaller fleet of all 5 coach sets instead.
Because a smaller fleet can't cover as many diagrams.

Edit: Considering that the 4 coach trains will likely be replacing two coach 158s and three coach 170s on Aberdeen-Inverness duties, I don't think they're going to be short of capacity in the near to mid term.
 
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Northhighland

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Cost is likely to be the reason.

So how about a slightly smaller fleet of all 5 coach sets instead.

Either way the use of HST stock is a big improvement over 158's / 170's.
As a regular traveller from Inverness to Edinburgh/ Glasgow the increased capacity is desperately needed. Regularly leaving Queen street you will stand to Perth. An hour. Totally unacceptable. I agree they should standardise on a 5 car formation, the 170's are three coaches, and are regularly rammed.

The HST is way better than the 170 which is noisy and not that comfortable. the East Coast service to Inverness at night has a lot of passengers, I will regularly wait a half hour longer to get it. Way better.

Still a year and a bit to wait though. Slow improvement for the North.
 

Clansman

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As a regular traveller from Inverness to Edinburgh/ Glasgow the increased capacity is desperately needed. Regularly leaving Queen street you will stand to Perth. An hour. Totally unacceptable. I agree they should standardise on a 5 car formation, the 170's are three coaches, and are regularly rammed.

The HST is way better than the 170 which is noisy and not that comfortable. the East Coast service to Inverness at night has a lot of passengers, I will regularly wait a half hour longer to get it. Way better.

Still a year and a bit to wait though. Slow improvement for the North.
Given that a doubled 170 is more superior in seating capacity (slightly) compared to a HST it would be wise for Scotrail to invest in the acquirement of more carriages to ensure some "breathing space" in instances when doubled up DMUs would've been used. Even if the whole fleet was 5-car it would still give a bit of consistency during busy periods such as holidays, peaks and large events.
 
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ld0595

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Given that a doubled 170 is more superior in seating capacity (slightly) compared to a HST it would be wise for Scotrail to invest in the acquirement of more carriages to ensure some "breathing space" in instances when doubled up DMUs would've been used. Even if the whole fleet was 5-car it would still give a bit of consistency during busy periods such as holidays, peaks and large events.
I seem to recall reading somewhere a while back that there are plans to increase at least two of the 2+4 units to 2+6 in 2021 or so.
 

Clansman

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I honestly can't remember the last time I was on a double 170 service, it must be at least a couple of years ago. I see 170 + 158 all the time though.
Ye I have to say it has gotten more uncommon under Abellio, and in the latter stages when First had the franchise.

In the instance of Intercity services, a sum of Inverness services are formed of doubled and tripled up 158s daily which is often rammed, especially when there's snow in the Cairngorms. Other than that and Sunday services there's little to no doubling up of units to Aberdeen or from Aberdeen to Inverness, where there should be indefinitely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I seem to recall reading somewhere a while back that there are plans to increase at least two of the 2+4 units to 2+6 in 2021 or so.
I recall that also, but can't remember the source. I think someone linked an article in the "Abellio Scotrail" thread up to a year ago but I could be wrong.
 

43096

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I seem to recall reading somewhere a while back that there are plans to increase at least two of the 2+4 units to 2+6 in 2021 or so.
You are correct - 2x6-car sets were due to be formed from Dec 2022. It's in the ScotRail franchise agreement: http://www.transport.gov.scot/syste...Redacted Franchise Agreement - CU version.pdf

However, it looks like the plan has changed, as the requirement is now 17x5-car and 9x4-car, rather than the 13x5-car and 14x4-car that is in the franchise agreement. It's the same number of vehicles, but with one less set formed and configured with more 5-car sets.
 

adamedwards

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I wonder if more of the disused toilets could be converted for cycle use and one of the units used to run from Inverness to Wick in high season? A big issue for cyclists doing the Lands End John O'Groats ride is the huge difficulty of getting bikes back from Wick to Inverness leading to people going on to the Orkneys and the ship to Aberdeen or using vans to take the bikes. It would be nice for ScotRail to get the money. It would probably only need one service a day, timed for peak demand.

Taking out the loo and putting in more hanging rack ought to be not too expensive.

The other reason for this is only 2 bikes on a train is not a great deal of use if you are a family of 4 all on bikes. Splitting families onto different services is not a great start to the holiday.
 

fgwrich

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I can't believe how many people hate my favourite seat design, the IC70. Everyone I travelled with used to agree on how comfortable they are/were. It's only in recent years I've heard much objection to them.

You do not get a decent view with Grammer seating, the backs are just too high.
From my point of view it's because they are old and tired. They were probably fine when new, but now they are too low down, encourage you to slouch - where if your at a table with someone sitting opposite invites you to a game of footsie, low backed, that awful fixed armrest doesn't allow you to sit or move around and if you end up with one as ropey and as threadbare as the Night Riviera examples, you might find the floor more comfortable. The NR examples lost all cushioning years ago and now feels like your sitting on a set of moquette covered springs. As I said earlier, they are exactly like the Paxman Valenta engines in the Power Cars - fine when new, but not so after 30+ years of use.

The Grammers may often be sighted as too tall - that can't be helped with modern regs, but of all the newer seats in the past 10 years I find them perfectly acceptable. Much better than the XC/GNER/VTEC examples which seem to sink inwards.

Seeing as they are already used in the Inverness 158s, retaining the Grammer seats will not only help ScotRail stock up on spares but should help with familiarity - and will allow enough seats to be retained without doing an FGW "High Density" to them.
 

Clansman

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From my point of view it's because they are old and tired. They were probably fine when new, but now they are too low down, encourage you to slouch - where if your at a table with someone sitting opposite invites you to a game of footsie, low backed, that awful fixed armrest doesn't allow you to sit or move around and if you end up with one as ropey and as threadbare as the Night Riviera examples, you might find the floor more comfortable. The NR examples lost all cushioning years ago and now feels like your sitting on a set of moquette covered springs. As I said earlier, they are exactly like the Paxman Valenta engines in the Power Cars - fine when new, but not so after 30+ years of use.

The Grammers may often be sighted as too tall - that can't be helped with modern regs, but of all the newer seats in the past 10 years I find them perfectly acceptable. Much better than the XC/GNER/VTEC examples which seem to sink inwards.

Seeing as they are already used in the Inverness 158s, retaining the Grammer seats will not only help ScotRail stock up on spares but should help with familiarity - and will allow enough seats to be retained without doing an FGW "High Density" to them.
I agree with you about the IC70s, they are done. I think they're sell by date for me personally was when GNER started replacing them. As I live in Scotland I've only had a few recent trips on IC70 (I'm not a spotter so don't go out of my way to do so) so I've only ever experienced them post GNER on one occasion on EMT and the one VTEC set on the Chieftain. Both times I found the seats very low and the armrests very annoying; especially on the leather seats on VTEC. The seats are more suited to kids in my opinion, hence why I loved the GNER ones so much :)

Have to disagree with you about the Grammar seating. I find them very very cramped and take up a lot of space in terms of their high back design, which often obscures the spacious feel of any train. I find them very hard and limiting in terms of space, and I'd happily take the seats of which VTEC and XC use any day of the week. I find them spacious enough, and not high which makes the travel experience feel more open and less claustrophobic. I really wish Scotrail had gone for the XC style refurb but with more tables and obviously blue seats. :(

Purely a matter of opinions on this one :)
 
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Highland37

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This is an amazing find and many thanks to the poster for posting it here. I bet someone at Scotrail is pretty annoyed about it appearing online and I can imagine the P&J hysteria building already.

I too would like to see 2+5 as standard but beggars can't be choosers. Bike capacity seems very disappointing but hopefully the power cars will be used to supplement it.

Overall, I can't wait to see these trains instead of the 158s or 170s. I don't think I have ever travelled on a triple 158.
 

fgwrich

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This is an amazing find and many thanks to the poster for posting it here. I bet someone at Scotrail is pretty annoyed about it appearing online and I can imagine the P&J hysteria building already.
Admittedly I have the same feeling too however, This would then be a perfect opportunity to listen to us as passengers to harness potential feedback and listen and work with the designers to match Abellio ScotRails brief by making the HST a suitable 21st centaury train - and 170 replacement!

I agree with you about the IC70s, they are done. I think they're sell by date for me personally was when GNER started replacing them. As I live in Scotland I've only had a few recent trips on IC70 (I'm not a spotter so don't go out of my way to do so) so I've only ever experienced them post GNER on one occasion on EMT and the one VTEC set on the Chieftain. Both times I found the seats very low and the armrests very annoying; especially on the leather seats on VTEC. The seats are more suited to kids in my opinion, hence why I loved the GNER ones so much :)

Have to disagree with you about the Grammar seating. I find them very very cramped and take up a lot of space in terms of their high back design, which often obscures the spacious feel of any train. I find them very hard and limiting in terms of space, and I'd happily take the seats of which VTEC and XC use any day of the week. I find them spacious enough, and not high which makes the travel experience feel more open and less claustrophobic. I really wish Scotrail had gone for the XC style refurb but with more tables and obviously blue seats. :(
Fair enough, and everyone has their own opinions! Your post actually reminded me about the ex EMT set in the VTEC Fleet. Despite it's refurbishment and re-covering the seats in the VTEC Red material, its still done nothing for comfort levels. I wasn't best pleased seeing that arrive as my train twice in Scotland over the summer.
 

Altnabreac

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This is an amazing find and many thanks to the poster for posting it here. I bet someone at Scotrail is pretty annoyed about it appearing online and I can imagine the P&J hysteria building already.

I too would like to see 2+5 as standard but beggars can't be choosers. Bike capacity seems very disappointing but hopefully the power cars will be used to supplement it.

Overall, I can't wait to see these trains instead of the 158s or 170s. I don't think I have ever travelled on a triple 158.
The concerns over bike storage in the power cars seem to be with platform length and dwell time.

You could imagine a reasonable compromise being to keep the 2 spaces for those leaving and joining en route with the power car spaces only for Glasgow - Aberdeen or Edinburgh - Inverness journeys etc
 

Clansman

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Admittedly I have the same feeling too however, This would then be a perfect opportunity to listen to us as passengers to harness potential feedback and listen and work with the designers to match Abellio ScotRails brief by making the HST a suitable 21st centaury train - and 170 replacement!
Agree with you there.

It would be great if Abellio, given the state they are in, to actually listen to what us passengers think of it - especially given how plans have just been put to paper. They are clearly splashing money out for building concept interiors (the buffet for example) in warehouses to showcase, so it would definitely do more good than harm (if any!) to work with passengers in what we want.

Wonder if Mr Vestor is trawling these forums yet ;)
If anyone watched his live stream on the Daily Record you'll clearly see that he answered bugger all to simple questions. More like a politician than a business who supposedly has the interests of passengers at heart...

Despite it's refurbishment and re-covering the seats in the VTEC Red material, its still done nothing for comfort levels. I wasn't best pleased seeing that arrive as my train twice in Scotland over the summer.
Tell me about it....

I had it on the Chieftain from Perth to London in October.....6 hours!!

"Plush tush"...pffft
 
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43096

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The concerns over bike storage in the power cars seem to be with platform length and dwell time.



You could imagine a reasonable compromise being to keep the 2 spaces for those leaving and joining en route with the power car spaces only for Glasgow - Aberdeen or Edinburgh - Inverness journeys etc
I'd like to know what they plan to do with the space where one of the current toilets is de-commissioned. To me it would make sense to convert each of these into a bike stowage area, so there are two bike spaces per TS. It would both increase the number of bike spaces and remove a different vehicle type from the fleet.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd like to know what they plan to do with the space where one of the current toilets is de-commissioned. To me it would make sense to convert each of these into a bike stowage area, so there are two bike spaces per TS. It would both increase the number of bike spaces and remove a different vehicle type from the fleet.
I agree. All the disused toilets should be converted to cycle/luggage multifunction space. The cost would be low and the benefit significant.
 

broadgage

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Regarding the "disused toilets", perhaps the intention is to keep at least one in working order, but locked out of use ?

It could then be unlocked and used in an emergency such as failure of the new retention tank toilets.
I appreciate that the intention is to abolish dump toilets on the national network in the near future, but a toilet that is locked out of use and only used in exceptional conditions might be acceptable ?
With virtually no use, maintenance should be minimal, simply flush once per shift as a test and top up the water supply tank as needed. The water used for testing would be relatively clean and dumping one flush a day of clean water on the track a matter of no concern.
 

route:oxford

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Fair enough, and everyone has their own opinions! Your post actually reminded me about the ex EMT set in the VTEC Fleet. Despite it's refurbishment and re-covering the seats in the VTEC Red material, its still done nothing for comfort levels. I wasn't best pleased seeing that arrive as my train twice in Scotland over the summer.
I had it on both Highland and Stirling Chieftains on my trips North to Stirling this summer. Then a futher 4 times on my trips to Edinburgh - on two of those occasions (both on advances), when my time into London didn't matter, Virgin were kind enough to honour the ticket for the next train instead.
 

47802

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I agree. All the disused toilets should be converted to cycle/luggage multifunction space. The cost would be low and the benefit significant.
Think that's unlikely, although its marked as unused toilet maybe it will be an equipment cubicle as suggested earlier in this thread the fact that the coach for bike storage has no usable toilet but still retains unused toilet as well perhaps suggests there is some reason behind it,
 
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