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Ideas for 22x trains to transfer to Chiltern or Scotrail

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Japan0913

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dk1

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How about replacing some Abellio Scotrail Inter7city HST SET with Class 22X?
I always thought the Voyager fleet would've be perfect for those internal Scotrail services even exchanging with XC allowing full length HSTs. I suppose though doing the latter would have issues with the contact at Central Rivers depot & give XC the headache of non PRM compliant slam door trains.
 

Japan0913

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Is it likely the 222's will stay if a new bi mode fleet is ordered or is the whole intercity fleet likely to be replaced?

The 222's could definitely find a home with XC, but I think they're a solid fleet and with some interior refurbs I'd be happy to see them stay.
Alternatively, the Class 22 X could transfer to Chiltern Railways and be given the status of a flagship train to help speed up.
 
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Japan0913

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Why though? Voyagers have been used since 2001 on XC.
What is the next great stage for EMR Class 222 ??
That said,

It's not about XC...

Is Class 22 x of XC also subject to replacement?
 
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VT 390

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I always thought the Voyager fleet would've be perfect for those internal Scotrail services even exchanging with XC allowing full length HSTs. I suppose though doing the latter would have issues with the contact at Central Rivers depot & give XC the headache of non PRM compliant slam door trains.
If XC and Scotrail exchanged rolling stock then could XC not just have the Mk3 carriages which will be already be fitted with power doors for Scotrail as by the time EMT get 222 replacements the Scotrail carriages should all be power door fitted?
Although by that point it may be that XC has ordered new stock of it's own in which case Scotrail could have 22X trains on its main long distance routes without affecting XC capacity or rolling stock.
 

Clip

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Would sending them to Chiltern work?

The utilisation of platforms at chiltern can have a platform with 2 services in at once and this would reduce marylebone capacity would it not?
 

JonathanH

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Alternatively, the Class 22 X could transfer to Chiltern Railways and be given the status of a flagship train to help speed up.

Nothing like enough capacity and the route doesn't allow 125mph. 22x will not go to Chiltern - if anything goes to Chiltern it should be 170s for conversion to 168s to eliminate the hauled sets.
 

hexagon789

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Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-trains-for-east-midlands-franchise.180920/page-26

How about replacing some Abellio Scotrail Inter7city HST SET with Class 22X?

222s yes, take all of them and that's one more unit than there will be HST sets.

The interiors are of a higher-standard and with a re-configuring of the formations I think it could work. I've often thought about what if ScotRail had done like Midland Mainline and replaced it's Turbostars with Meridians.
 

VT 390

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222s yes, take all of them and that's one more unit than there will be HST sets.

The interiors are of a higher-standard and with a re-configuring of the formations I think it could work. I've often thought about what if ScotRail had done like Midland Mainline and replaced it's Turbostars with Meridians.
As well as changing the formations I think there would need to be a lot less First Class seating in the 222's if they went to Scotrail.
 

VT 390

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Or they could reduce First Class fares and fill it.
They could do this and I think on some services this will need to be done on the HST's as well but having nearly half the train First Class on 4 coach sets is still to much in my opinion.

Although other than sorting out the internal layouts and formations I think the 222's would be a good choice for Scotrail at least until/if the routes to Aberdeen/Inverness are ever electrified.
 

6Gman

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Nothing like enough capacity and the route doesn't allow 125mph. 22x will not go to Chiltern - if anything goes to Chiltern it should be 170s for conversion to 168s to eliminate the hauled sets.

Heretic !

:D
 

hexagon789

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As well as changing the formations I think there would need to be a lot less First Class seating in the 222's if they went to Scotrail.

It's been done before - Mainline Mainline introduced them as 4 and 9-car units, the 4-car units as introduced actually had less Standard Class seating than the Turbostars they replaced!
 

route101

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They could do this and I think on some services this will need to be done on the HST's as well but having nearly half the train First Class on 4 coach sets is still to much in my opinion.

Although other than sorting out the internal layouts and formations I think the 222's would be a good choice for Scotrail at least until/if the routes to Aberdeen/Inverness are ever electrified.

Do scotrail do First advances?
 

RLBH

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If the 222s did go to Scotrail, some reconfiguration would be needed. A uniform fleet of 5-car units would seem sensible, formed DMF, MSRMB, 2xMS, DMS - this would require converting intermediate First Class and composite coaches to a Standard seating arrangement, which I'm assuming is possible but don't actually know one way or the other. I can't see that it would be prohibitively difficult, given that First Class to composite has been done, but you never quite know.

The result would be a fleet of 27 trains with 22 First Class and 238 Standard seats, something of a shortfall compared to a 5-car HST though better than a 4-car. The extra unit wouldn't really help - and in fact total fleet seating would still fall short, at 7,008 vice 7,412 - though it would increase redundancy.

With operation at over 100mph off the cards, the capacity of the end vehicles could presumably be increased, though I don't know how much. Really, though, getting up to the capacity of the HST fleet would need an additional vehicle per set to be obtained from somewhere.

It would also continue the tradition of banishing units that Hull Trains don't want any more to Scotland, which is at least mildly entertaining. Buying Voyagers/Meridians in the mid-2000s would have been nice, though I fear an unlikely use of taxpayers' money.
 

d9009alycidon

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Scotrail have gone through a lot of pain getting the short formation HSTs into service and are still having reliability issues due to staff not being familiar with the sets, I cannot imagine that having invested (and continuing to invest) a lot of time and money getting these sets up to any degree of acceptable reliability that they would be interested in having to go through another programme of training etc involved with swapping them for voyagers. There would be the inevitable backlash from politicians and customers as lets face it, Voyagers have always been seen as smelly, noisy and uncomfortable. Its a big No for this suggestion.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Easier to give Chiltern some HSTs for a uniform fleet (and with spare trailers for strengthening) for Oxford, Birmingham etc.

Use 4 car 220s for Cardiff - Nottingham, Birmingham - Stansted etc. Much better to keep uniformity.
 

VT 390

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Easier to give Chiltern some HSTs for a uniform fleet (and with spare trailers for strengthening) for Oxford, Birmingham etc.

Use 4 car 220s for Cardiff - Nottingham, Birmingham - Stansted etc. Much better to keep uniformity.
I do not think HST's would be good for Chiltern because the Power Cars would take up space which could be used by passenger carriages, I know the current Loco Hauled sets do this but it does not mean it is a good idea. The current 168's I think are very good for the route there's just not enougth of them. Any new stock for Chiltern in my opinion should not have end doors because of the type of route it is.

I think that 220/222's would be good on the Cardiff to Nottingham services offering an increase in capacity. I'm not sure about Stansted services as they have fairly frequent stops at times and the positioning of the doors is better on 170's for this. I do think that the Leicester/Stansted services should be transferred to a different operator.
 

4-SUB 4732

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I love how ‘position of doors’ is considered so relevant when 156s with single leaf end doors operate all sorts of stuff they aren’t suitable for.

HSTs on Chiltern provides no difference over a 68 and DVT as the same amount of physical space is occupied in a platform. The HSTs at least have two sets of luggage space in the power cars but realistically you could take up a bit of space at one end and make a little servicing area for First Class.

On the Oxford and Birmingham trips, trains stop rarely. Some peak services would also benefit especially as on the two-track route it is, stuff slows down so a 2 minute vice 1 minute dwell would only serve to take a few pathing minutes off a whole trip and not actually extend a journey time.

As for 220s working on XC; assuming the Leicester service goes to WMT (and the Nottingham starter from Brum), you’ll be left with the Cardiff - Nottingham and the Birmingham - Stansted. Prime routes for 4/220 or 5/221 assuming we are sensible enough to keep those routes within franchise allowing the entire fleet to cover all routes and have relevant maintenance redundancy. You could also split up the train crew depots working the trips - give Leicester and Nottingham over to WMT; leaving Cambridge, Derby, Birmingham and wherever down south west to do the Stansteds and Cardiff’s.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Alternatively, the Class 22 X could transfer to Chiltern Railways and be given the status of a flagship train to help speed up.

I believe Chiltern Railways were interested in the use of (or considering) Class 222's. I also believe that they may discuss with Network Rail on route clearances as they're heavier than a 168.

You'd have to restrict them to 100mph though I guess?
 

VT 390

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I believe Chiltern Railways were interested in the use of (or considering) Class 222's. I also believe that they may discuss with Network Rail on route clearances as they're heavier than a 168.

You'd have to restrict them to 100mph though I guess?
If they were restricted to 100mph it seams a waste of a train as there are few diesel trains which can do 125mph which would be better used on other routes.
 

4-SUB 4732

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If they were restricted to 100mph it seams a waste of a train as there are few diesel trains which can do 125mph which would be better used on other routes.

And if we were clever enough to put them back to 4 and 9 cars, we would actually have a very useful pan-Britain fleet of 4/220 and 4/222; along with some 4/221 for Cross Country's stuff with 4 and 8 car formations; as well as using the 9/222s and 4/22x + 5/221 to make 9/22x.
 

GrimShady

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Scotrail have gone through a lot of pain getting the short formation HSTs into service and are still having reliability issues due to staff not being familiar with the sets, I cannot imagine that having invested (and continuing to invest) a lot of time and money getting these sets up to any degree of acceptable reliability that they would be interested in having to go through another programme of training etc involved with swapping them for voyagers. There would be the inevitable backlash from politicians and customers as lets face it, Voyagers have always been seen as smelly, noisy and uncomfortable. Its a big No for this suggestion.

Exactly!

Scotland doesn't want nor need these horrible trains.
 

Clansman

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Anyone who thinks that 22Xs were ever a viable option for ScotRail and suitable for their Intercity routes should read the franchise agreement and the invitation to tender, and then travel on any XC Voyager north of Edinburgh. Then they will see why it's such a ridiculous idea.
 
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