ScotRail HST - Alternative Provision

[GrimShady]

I've started this thread as requested by mods for the discussion of alternative rolling stock to replace ScotRails woefully slow HST project.

 

[gingertom]

MK4/5 and class 68 (with a change to 93 once the wires go up ) could happen quite quickly once the 800/801s in service on the ECML once Wales have their quota.

bi-mode version of Flirt, 802, Civity or Aventra, new build tag-on to existing orders, 2-3 years from order.

 

[snookertam]

I think if the HST refurbishment progress doesn't speed up and there's a danger that enough trains won't be available to work the internal long distance services, then I think ScotRail are realistically looking at finding off lease units that can be brought in at relatively short notice. Not sure what is happening with the Cl185s when TPE no longer need them, or there might be some off lease 158s which could be used as 4 cars - yes a retrograde step - but in such a scenario then needs must. If spare 158 units were around somewhere at least the drivers would all be familiar with them and no training program required, and using them permanently as 4 car sets would be easily done, also alleviating the overcrowding issues seen with the 170s and also meaning they can work in sync with the existing fleet.

EDIT: Downside of this however is I doubt the drivers would be terribly keen on the draft through the gangway door.

At least doing so would then allow time for new units to potentially be tendered then ordered.

 

[kylemore]

MK4/5 and class 68 (with a change to 93 once the wires go up ) could happen quite quickly once the 800/801s in service on the ECML once Wales have their quota.

bi-mode version of Flirt, 802, Civity or Aventra, new build tag-on to existing orders, 2-3 years from order.

What should have been done from the beginning rather than flogging tired 40 year old horses!

 

[hexagon789]

I think bi-mode Flirts would be the most logical choice.

 

[GrimShady]

Mk5 and 68s in my view.

No Class 800s please, the country is riddled with these things!

Surely we can't be considering going back to 158s. Not only are they poor performers but it's a step backwards.

 

[snookertam]

Mk5 and 68s in my view.

No Class 800s please, the country is riddled with these things!

Surely we can't be considering going back to 158s. Not only are they poor performers but it's a step backwards.

Not as a long term option, but if these HSTs don't start getting produced in any great numbers soon there won't be much time to consider new units as a direct replacement. It'll be needs-must to get units in service ASAP similar to when the 365s were brought in on the E&G.

 

[applepie2100]

Mk5 and 68s in my view.

No Class 800s please, the country is riddled with these things!

Surely we can't be considering going back to 158s. Not only are they poor performers but it's a step backwards.

Mk5's and 68's or a variant of would be my preferred choice too although 800's or even FLIRT's would be alternatives.

Let's not forget that that as well as Scotrail this is also affecting to a lesser degree CrossCountry and GWR as well. For seemingly many and varied reasons Wabtec are moving at glacial pace and we could well be sitting here in a couple of years time with all the promised sets still not in service. That's two years where we could have orders placed and manufacturing well under way on coaches or trains which could be used happily for the next 30 years.

 

[Chester1]

Not as a long term option, but if these HSTs don't start getting produced in any great numbers soon there won't be much time to consider new units as a direct replacement. It'll be needs-must to get units in service ASAP similar to when the 365s were brought in on the E&G.

I agree. If ordered today stock would not be in service in a years time, it is that simple. New stock would also be a long term solution to a short term problem. TPE can hand back 12 x 185s from 01/01/2020 and their future is uncertain. A short lease of some 185s until the HST upgrade is completed could work if another ToC does not want them straight away for a long term lease.

 

[GrimShady]

Are the TPE Mk5s still under construction?

A follow on order of the same spec surely shouldn't take more than 2 years?

 

[mullac30]

Perhaps an '803' with a central Stadler style power car to house bigger engines to deal with Highland gradients, or batteries perhaps.

 

[GrimShady]

Perhaps an '803' with a central Stadler style power car to house bigger engines to deal with Highland gradients, or batteries perhaps.

The development cost and time would be the prohibiting factor, that's even if Hitachi would entertainment such a design. It would also mean large access ports in the sides which the body isn't designed for.

Sounds easy in theory but in practice it's a serious redesign.

 

[xotGD]

Mark 4 sets will soon be available. Slap a 67 on the front and you're sorted.

Either that or cast-off 142s.

 

[mullac30]

Perhaps an '803' with a central Stadler style power car to house bigger engines to deal with Highland gradients.

The development cost and time would be the prohibiting factor, that's even if Hitachi would entertainment such a design. It would also mean large access ports in the sides which the body isn't designed for.

Sounds easy in theory but in practice it's a serious redesign.

Wasn't that part of the original IEP proposal though, surely there might be some remnant of that design that could be re purposed as a mid car rather than an end car.
Although there might be easier options like a modified loco hauling an 801 or any other intercity EMU.

 

[GrimShady]

What's the performance of a 67 Vs 68 like?

 

[GrimShady]

Wasn't that part of the original IEP proposal though, surely there might be some remnant of that design that could be re purposed as a mid car rather than an end car.
Although there might be easier options like a modified loco hauling an 801 or any other intercity EMU.

AFAIK back then the plan was for power cars similar to HSTs that could run in either in diesel or electric mode. Unfortunately we ended up with the current versions.

Maybe the easy option is for more Class 385/1 with a suitable loco attached in push pull mode. The units aren't designed for operation in this manner. This was you keep a standardised fleet and ditch the loco when the wires go up.

 

[GusB]

AFAIK back then plan was for power cars similar to HSTs that could run in either in diesel or electric mode. Unfortunately we ended up with the current versions.

Maybe the easy option is for more Class 385/1 with a suitable loco attached in push pull mode. The units aren't designed for operation in this manner. This was you keep a standardised fleet and ditch the loco when the wires go up.

Yes, and why don't we convert a 47/7 with a suitable coupler - for old times' sake?

 

[GrimShady]

Yes, and why don't we convert a 47/7 with a suitable coupler - for old times' sake?

Why do that when there's perfectly good 67/68 and more locos ordered on the horizon?

What would you suggest Gus?

 

[gsnedders]

There are spare 67/68s right? When do the Mk4s come off-lease? Though then the number of DVTs limits matters, given the coaches end with tightlocks at a non-standard height (though I think it's not too hard to fit a buckeye/buffers)… Won't keep to the 170 timetable yet alone the HST timetable, and will cost a fortune on track access charges, but might be vaguely workable if needed in the interim.

 

[gingertom]

There are spare 67/68s right? When do the Mk4s come off-lease? Though then the number of DVTs limits matters, given the coaches end with tightlocks at a non-standard height (though I think it's not too hard to fit a buckeye/buffers)… Won't keep to the 170 timetable yet alone the HST timetable, and will cost a fortune on track access charges, but might be vaguely workable if needed in the interim.

would you really need DVTs? a loco could run around at Inverness, Aberdeen and Edinburgh Waverley- Glasgow Queen Street is slightly more challenging but not impossible. Could always run top and tail, however the track access charges would probably rule it out. Would improve the timekeeping though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The development cost and time would be the prohibiting factor, that's even if Hitachi would entertainment such a design. It would also mean large access ports in the sides which the body isn't designed for.

Sounds easy in theory but in practice it's a serious redesign.

Stadler may well have a patent on the concept.

 

[GusB]

Why do that when there's perfectly good 67/68 and more locos ordered on the horizon?

What would you suggest Gus?

My post was intended to be a little bit tongue-in-cheek, and you cannot deny that you'd just love to resurrect Scotrail Express - 80s style - on the network

What would I suggest? I don't think loco-haulage is the way forward, to be honest. 68+Mk5 is a suggestion that has reared its head on more than one occasion, but there are currently two Mk5 builds in progress, neither of which seem to be on time. As for class 67s - they're geared for 125mph running, would they be the right solution? I really don't know.

Bi-mode 80x? Seems sensible to me if the electrification continues, but it upsets the anti-underfloor-engine contingent. Maybe a bi-mode version of the 385, but with doors at the end - a cross between that and the 802, but with gangways to allow units to work in multiple. I'd suggest going for 3- and 4-cars. Platform lengths would be an issue in some places, but SDO could get around this. I'm also interested to see how the Stadler units perform in service - perhaps a FLIRT variant would be better in the long run. None of these options are going to be a quick fix, though.

The HST programme looked ideal when it was first mooted, and the refurbished set looks fab, but as time goes on and the delivery schedule slips further and further behind I'm having second thoughts.

Scotrail have 8 weeks to put together a plan to solve their issues, so it will be interesting to see what develops.

 

[gingertom]

My post was intended to be a little bit tongue-in-cheek, and you cannot deny that you'd just love to resurrect Scotrail Express - 80s style - on the network

What would I suggest? I don't think loco-haulage is the way forward, to be honest. 68+Mk5 is a suggestion that has reared its head on more than one occasion, but there are currently two Mk5 builds in progress, neither of which seem to be on time. As for class 67s - they're geared for 125mph running, would they be the right solution? I really don't know.

Bi-mode 80x? Seems sensible to me if the electrification continues, but it upsets the anti-underfloor-engine contingent. Maybe a bi-mode version of the 385, but with doors at the end - a cross between that and the 802, but with gangways to allow units to work in multiple. I'd suggest going for 3- and 4-cars. Platform lengths would be an issue in some places, but SDO could get around this. I'm also interested to see how the Stadler units perform in service - perhaps a FLIRT variant would be better in the long run. None of these options are going to be a quick fix, though.

The HST programme looked ideal when it was first mooted, and the refurbished set looks fab, but as time goes on and the delivery schedule slips further and further behind I'm having second thoughts.

Scotrail have 8 weeks to put together a plan to solve their issues, so it will be interesting to see what develops.

Loco hauled isn't a long term solution but it would buy some time as a stop gap, plus 67s are available now and MK4s aren't far off. How the doors would be controlled is probably an issue and that would mean a visit to the works for some mods- which means more time to get them into service- not ideal.
Long term I think you are right, a Stadler bi-mode on the face of it would fit the bill. A 4 car intercity set, one power module with 4 engines would be about right. But what happens when you need more than 4 carriages? 5 or more carriage sets are easy to put together but unless an additional power module is put into the rake I don't relish the prospect of climbing Slochd or Drumochter. Adding additional coaches & power modules creates its own problems with platform lengths. Not insurmountable.
Decisions, decisions.

 

[Goldromans]

I believe this has been asked before, but what work would be needed to make Mk4's work with the Class 43 power cars? If it's less hassle than fitting automatic doors and retention tanks to Mk3's, then could Wabtec continue to (try and) refurbish the Mk3's until the Mk4's come off lease, then begin to refurbish them to the same specs? They would only need the internal work done (cafe, first class snack area, livery etc) as they already have automatic doors and tanks. Far from ideal, but potentially faster than waiting for the Mk3's, unless things suddenly start to pick up?

 

[gingertom]

I believe this has been asked before, but what work would be needed to make Mk4's work with the Class 43 power cars? If it's less hassle than fitting automatic doors and retention tanks to Mk3's, then could Wabtec continue to (try and) refurbish the Mk3's until the Mk4's come off lease, then begin to refurbish them to the same specs? They would only need the internal work done (cafe, first class snack area, livery etc) as they already have automatic doors and tanks. Far from ideal, but potentially faster than waiting for the Mk3's, unless things suddenly start to pick up?

3 areas: coupling & buffers, door controls & interlocks and ETH incompatibility. All can be fixed but takes time and money.

 

[Goldromans]

3 areas: coupling & buffers, door controls & interlocks and ETH incompatibility. All can be fixed but takes time and money.

Do you (or anyone else) know if this could be a feasible alternative to the Mk3's? Quicker than ordering new stock, and potentially quicker to refurb?

 

[Bletchleyite]

A 4 car intercity set, one power module with 4 engines would be about right. But what happens when you need more than 4 carriages?

The vehicles are only 16-18m long, you'd need a 6 or 8-section unit.

 

[gingertom]

The vehicles are only 16-18m long, you'd need a 6 or 8-section unit.

if that's the size of them then 2 power modules it will have to be, along with whatever platform mods/SDO are required. More expense and time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

if that's the size of them then 2 power modules it will have to be, along with whatever platform mods/SDO are required. More expense and time.

FWIW I think a DMU or bi-mode version of the 5-car end-doored TPE EMUs for the WCML would be pretty much ideal. Though I do support FLIRTs for the "level boarding" advantage.

 

[47271]

For all we know someone from Scotrail at this very moment is sitting in a darkened room drawing up a list of HST alternatives as part of the remedial plan Transport Scotland's given them an eight week deadline on...