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SWR: Guards/RMT Industrial Action. Next strike dates: 30/31 August, 1/2 September 2019

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pompeyfan

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https://www.rmt.org.uk/about/ballot...-and-extension-of-doo-swr200318/?preview=true

62% turnout, with 73% of those voting yes to strike action. 82% yes vote to action short of strike.

The general feeling I get is that the RMT probably have more support right now than the time of that ballot.

I agree with the last paragraph. The general feeling is one of distrust towards the company by the guards grade.

It must be noted though that looking at Twitter it would appear support from the public is rapidly disappearing. The grade ‘do nothing’, ‘are allergic to work’, ‘work shy’, and my personal favourite ‘should all be sacked on the spot as there’s plenty of homeless veterans that would love a £32-£38k a year job’ .....
 
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jon0844

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Drivers aren't paid to press a few buttons to make a train move. They're paid to deal with things when they go wrong, with the lives of potentially almost two thousand people in their hands.

A guard is surely the same? Even if they are doing nothing, it's what they could do that earns them the salary.

I'm amazed nobody gets that. Do they think airline pilots should be paid minimum wage as these days a plane can fly itself? Or just let someone off the street give it a go because, well how hard can it be?
 

pompeyfan

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Drivers aren't paid to press a few buttons to make a train move. They're paid to deal with things when they go wrong, with the lives of potentially almost two thousand people in their hands.

A guard is surely the same? Even if they are doing nothing, it's what they could do that earns them the salary.

I'm amazed nobody gets that. Do they think airline pilots should be paid minimum wage as these days a plane can fly itself? Or just let someone off the street give it a go because, well how hard can it be?

According to the latest RSSB report though, passengers are more at risk on guard operated services than on DOO. The RSSB actually said all trains should either be DOO or OBS style, as long as the OBS is trained to make a REC.
 

Goldfish62

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If they have a legal duty to run them, why don't they have a legal duty to run them outside of London free for ticket holders?
The strikes are a one off abnormal event not of TfL's or the local authorities' making.
 

bahnause

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According to the latest RSSB report though, passengers are more at risk on guard operated services than on DOO. The RSSB actually said all trains should either be DOO or OBS style, as long as the OBS is trained to make a REC.
Does ist say why? It might be, that DOO is only used on routes where the risks are low (optimised equipment and optimised infrastructure).
 

Carlisle

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I agree with the last paragraph. The general feeling is one of distrust towards the company by the guards grade.

It must be noted though that looking at Twitter it would appear support from the public is rapidly disappearing. The grade ‘do nothing’, ‘are allergic to work’, ‘work shy’, and my personal favourite ‘should all be sacked on the spot as there’s plenty of homeless veterans that would love a £32-£38k a year job’ .....
I’d be very surprised if support for the RMTs position has risen, but much less so if there’s a feeling amongst those supporting the strikes from the outset, that following the GA deal etc continued industrial action might be significantly more likley to gain further concessions, but this ignores the fact GA have a substantial pre existing DOO area their agreement allows them to utilise all their new trains in , whereas SWR don’t, so it’s not totally unreasonable to understand why SWR wish to take a firmer stance on this issue in negotiations with the unions .
 
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Warwick

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On the naughty step again.
Depends where you are and what happens doesn't it. I'd go as far as to say my train load of passengers and driver would have been stuffed without me the other day following an incident and I've had every grade of manager up the chain tell me so since. Maybe not physically damaged stuffed but certainly in a fairly bad place given how long it took external assistance to arrive.

Not on any of the routes that I quoted so your post is irrelevant. I would suspect that whatever happened that you're quoting could have been dealt with any sensible person. If you're a Guard you won't even have the minimum of first aid training that airline cabin crew who are paid less than you receive.
 

LowLevel

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Not on any of the routes that I quoted so your post is irrelevant. I would suspect that whatever happened that you're quoting could have been dealt with any sensible person. If you're a Guard you won't even have the minimum of first aid training that airline cabin crew who are paid less than you receive.

I did type a wordy response but I've got shot of it - no point arguing with people on the internet :lol: I'm not at the top bracket of wages in guard terms and suffice to say with the way things are at the minute I think my wages are well earned. My managers seem to agree, my passengers were extremely grateful for my presence as were my colleagues at the front and I can't ask much more than that really.

As the saying goes 'you weren't there man, you weren't there' - feeling your train leave the rails and then land back on them with a load of screaming children isn't really on my list of life experiences to repeat (no lazy syndrome here - I was in the train selling tickets at the time so was unfortunate enough to be standing up :lol: 70 minutes until the first external assistance arrived and they had to climb over a large bramble patch).
 
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CN75

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Drivers aren't paid to press a few buttons to make a train move. They're paid to deal with things when they go wrong, with the lives of potentially almost two thousand people in their hands.

A guard is surely the same? Even if they are doing nothing, it's what they could do that earns them the salary.

I'm amazed nobody gets that. Do they think airline pilots should be paid minimum wage as these days a plane can fly itself? Or just let someone off the street give it a go because, well how hard can it be?

This argument is true in the sense a guard is useful in a hypothetical emergency, but when trains on virtually identical tracks all around the South East on similar trains do not require someone ‘doing nothing’, having one on SWR is indefensible. Guards doing ‘as much as they can’ is what ultimately justifies them being on the trains.

The old job of opening the doors is dead and it is time to move on, and the RMT have accepted this now at other companies. SWR guards are working trains from cabs on a daily basis for no good reason which is why the public are turning on them for being pointless.

According to the latest RSSB report though, passengers are more at risk on guard operated services than on DOO. The RSSB actually said all trains should either be DOO or OBS style, as long as the OBS is trained to make a REC.

The theory is that the fewer operational decision makers are involved, the lower the risk of miscommunication. Because the risk of injury is by far now highest at the platform for passengers, the theory is that having only the driver involved in dispatch is safest as there is less chance of a misunderstanding. Modern train CCTV systems can now give as good a view to the driver in the cab as a guard could on a platform and on some trains (long trains or curved platforms) CCTV is usually safer as there is a constant view of the platform until the train moves. A guard has to go back to the train, close the door etc. and during that time there could be an increase in risk of a passenger incident at the platform which went unseen. This is the RSSB theory.

The risk rate for non platform based incidents that affect passengers is so low on any train that there is no real effect on passenger safety. The chances of the driver being incapacitated and nobody besides the guard being quickly aware are as good as nil because of the technology improvements in the last twenty years on the railway. Every train in the UK has a radio system that can stop trains dead in seconds nowadays, which makes the old emergency protection arrangements largely redundant. This is why the minimum training requirement is making a REC.

The benefits of having a guard on board for passengers are heavily weighted towards tasks that have no operational effect on safety nowadays, as long as the train concerned has a CCTV system. Times have moved very quickly.

It is easy to forget how good the SWR offer on the table is: every train keeps a guard except in emergencies where the guard can’t be supplied last minute. It’s a strong offer when the alternatives could have been proposed genuine DOO conversion with staffing on the platforms where needed, etc.

Any negotiation that doesn’t allow to run a train without a guard when the guard is not available for an unplanned reason will not work for SWR. The RMT handing over door control etc. does nothing to make the service more reliable in those circumstances as the train still requires a guard to run.
 

TEW

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I’d be very surprised if support for the RMTs position has risen, but much less so if there’s a feeling amongst those supporting the strikes from the outset, that following the GA deal etc continued industrial action might be significantly more likley to gain further concessions, but this ignores the fact GA have a substantial pre existing DOO area the agreement allows them to utilise all their new trains in , whereas SWR have none, so it’s not totally unreasonable to understand why SWR wish to take a firmer stance on this issue in negotiations with the unions .
The general feeling does seem to be more supportive of the RMT than it has been previously in this dispute. SWR have made some strange decisions and the way they are communicating with and treating guards, even those who have worked during strikes, is causing staff to distrust the company. Even those who did not support the strikes initially are starting to see that they may well be justified and necessary after all.
 

TEW

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It is easy to forget how good the SWR offer on the table is: every train keeps a guard except in emergencies where the guard can’t be supplied last minute. It’s a strong offer when the alternatives could have been proposed genuine DOO conversion with staffing on the platforms where needed, etc.

Any negotiation that doesn’t allow to run a train without a guard when the guard is not available for an unplanned reason will not work for SWR. The RMT handing over door control etc. does nothing to make the service more reliable in those circumstances as the train still requires a guard to run.
That is not quite what the offer is.

SWR currently insist that they want to make the service more reliable, but it doesn't make much sense. Guard unavailability accounts for such a tiny percentage of train cancellations that it would simply not be worth having this dispute if eliminating them was the reason.
 

CN75

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That is not quite what the offer is.

SWR currently insist that they want to make the service more reliable, but it doesn't make much sense. Guard unavailability accounts for such a tiny percentage of train cancellations that it would simply not be worth having this dispute if eliminating them was the reason.

That is probably true for outright unavailability (causing cancellations), which it should be because they should employ enough.

Reliability is much more of an issue because not having a guard causes delays which aren’t about unavailability, just trains that run late that wouldn’t have if they didn’t have to wait for the guard, and then delay other trains in a knock on effect.

Often it’s not predictable, often it’s not the guard’s fault, but waiting for the guard is the reason a train can’t leave. Sometimes there is a spare guard but it isn’t the right sort of spare guard for the route the train has to go etc.

There are valid arguments about major disruption being the time that guards are needed the most for customer service but those aren’t about reliability.

SWR are potentially looking at saving millions of pounds in delay fines from making these changes. It’s also in their contract with the DfT that they will make the changes, and if they don’t do them it will cost them millions of pounds in fines.
 

LowLevel

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Does this mean SWR lied to their shareholders in their initial FAQ then? The below is a direct quotation from their spokesman after the franchise was awarded:

"Our proposals do not rely on driver controlled operation, and it was not mandated in the invitation to tender," he said.

"Any changes we might make would be subject to consultation in the normal way, as you would expect.”

Note that they do not say DOO. They specifically say DCO.

So it's not mandated, their bid didn't rely on it and yet they're still dragging their passengers and staff through industrial action over it. What's going on?

Either First Group or the DfT are playing games again. Or both.
 

Carlisle

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Depends where you are and what happens doesn't it. I'd go as far as to say my train load of passengers and driver would have been stuffed without me the other day following an incident and I've had every grade of manager up the chain tell me so since. Maybe not physically damaged stuffed but certainly in a fairly bad place given how long it took external assistance to arrive.
It was certainly the case in BR days that in order for lines to switch to DOO, response times from the likes of on call technicians, MOMs etc had to be much improved to around an hour if memory serves correctly, So if similar criteria still apply, on call arrangements would clearly be upgraded significantly before your line would qualify for DOO conversation
 
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theironroad

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Does this mean SWR lied to their shareholders in their initial FAQ then? The below is a direct quotation from their spokesman after the franchise was awarded:

"Our proposals do not rely on driver controlled operation, and it was not mandated in the invitation to tender," he said.

"Any changes we might make would be subject to consultation in the normal way, as you would expect.”

Note that they do not say DOO. They specifically say DCO.

So it's not mandated, their bid didn't rely on it and yet they're still dragging their passengers and staff through industrial action over it. What's going on?

Either First Group or the DfT are playing games again. Or both.

As first/MTR are now back in renegotiation of the swr contract, all bets are off.
 

theironroad

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According to the latest RSSB report though, passengers are more at risk on guard operated services than on DOO. The RSSB actually said all trains should either be DOO or OBS style, as long as the OBS is trained to make a REC.

Considering the factors they covered in their report to come to their conclusion, it seems very strange that driver stop short and door release and wrong side opening of doors by driver working under doo/dco compared to guard operated doors wasn't considered worthy of analysis.

I'm pretty sure that there will have been a number of incidents nationwide where a passenger has been prevented from falling or potentially falling from a train where the doors aren't adjacent to a platform, because a guard has noticed that the driver has stopped short and the train isn't accommodated.
 

LowLevel

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Considering the factors they covered in their report to come to their conclusion, it seems very strange that driver stop short and door release and wrong side opening of doors by driver working under doo/dco compared to guard operated doors wasn't considered worthy of analysis.

I'm pretty sure that there will have been a number of incidents nationwide where a passenger has been prevented from falling or potentially falling from a train where the doors aren't adjacent to a platform, because a guard has noticed that the driver has stopped short and the train isn't accommodated.

There was also no weighting allowed for the number of dispatch incidents involving slam doors which for guard operated Intercity will be higher (for a whole host of reasons - and indeed is far higher thus taking up the average) and for any DOO service will be 0 because well, there aren't any DOO slam door trains in operation.
 

theironroad

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That is probably true for outright unavailability (causing cancellations), which it should be because they should employ enough.

Reliability is much more of an issue because not having a guard causes delays which aren’t about unavailability, just trains that run late that wouldn’t have if they didn’t have to wait for the guard, and then delay other trains in a knock on effect.

Often it’s not predictable, often it’s not the guard’s fault, but waiting for the guard is the reason a train can’t leave. Sometimes there is a spare guard but it isn’t the right sort of spare guard for the route the train has to go etc.

There are valid arguments about major disruption being the time that guards are needed the most for customer service but those aren’t about reliability.

SWR are potentially looking at saving millions of pounds in delay fines from making these changes. It’s also in their contract with the DfT that they will make the changes, and if they don’t do them it will cost them millions of pounds in fines.

Swr are also potentially looking at saving millions of pounds by allowing the overall head count of guards to fall. By removing or reducing 'spare' and 'cover' turns in the roster, the depot establishment can drop and jobs cut.

They may 'plan' that 'normally' each diagram has a person allocated to it in the base roster, but any absence for any reason including holiday, sickness ,training, etc will mean there will be no spare guards available.

I'm sure when first/MTR bid for an planned for this franchise they didn't expect or 'plan' to be entering franchise renegotiation with he dft less than a year after it commenced, but things change and when the need for a guard is removed, things will happen to change again and then all guards could be under threat of redundancy.
 

CN75

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Swr are also potentially looking at saving millions of pounds by allowing the overall head count of guards to fall. By removing or reducing 'spare' and 'cover' turns in the roster, the depot establishment can drop and jobs cut.

They may 'plan' that 'normally' each diagram has a person allocated to it in the base roster, but any absence for any reason including holiday, sickness ,training, etc will mean there will be no spare guards available.

I'm sure when first/MTR bid for an planned for this franchise they didn't expect or 'plan' to be entering franchise renegotiation with he dft less than a year after it commenced, but things change and when the need for a guard is removed, things will happen to change again and then all guards could be under threat of redundancy.

If that was the ultimate goal, then why not just get on with it and make them redundant? Same as the argument used with Southern. Only Northern have said that they want ‘true’ Driver Only Operation for some of their routes. SWR have said they will employ more guards than they do presently, because there are more trains to be run.

According to posters on here, Southern has not cut its headcount or had less spare or cover turns since it made it’s changes, and publically they have said they employ more of the On Board Supervisors. Delays due to no guard available at the right place and time must be well down, however.

Just now the RMT have the power to negotiate the things listed above as concerns such as rostering and headcount. Shortly, they could lose their legal strike mandate, the new trains arrive, and it all be left to discussions with ASLEF they are then shut out from.

Does this mean SWR lied to their shareholders in their initial FAQ then? The below is a direct quotation from their spokesman after the franchise was awarded:

"Our proposals do not rely on driver controlled operation, and it was not mandated in the invitation to tender," he said.

"Any changes we might make would be subject to consultation in the normal way, as you would expect.”

Note that they do not say DOO. They specifically say DCO.

So it's not mandated, their bid didn't rely on it and yet they're still dragging their passengers and staff through industrial action over it. What's going on?

Either First Group or the DfT are playing games again. Or both.

Driver Only Operation ‘in emergency’ is not conversion to Driver Only Operation in the normal method of working though. Therefore it could be argued the comments from SWR are misleading but not deliberate lies. The spokesman is right anyway - SWR did try to negotiate in the normal way, but refused to back down when the RMT refused to negotiate their plans, and the strikes are the normal outcome of negotiations that go along this path in the rail industry.

Remember that the contract means that SWR can claim relief from any losses for industrial action (as the RMT has now highlighted in press releases).
 

Warwick

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On the naughty step again.
This argument is true in the sense a guard is useful in a hypothetical emergency, but when trains on virtually identical tracks all around the South East on similar trains do not require someone ‘doing nothing’, having one on SWR is indefensible. Guards doing ‘as much as they can’ is what ultimately justifies them being on the trains.

The old job of opening the doors is dead and it is time to move on, and the RMT have accepted this now at other companies. SWR guards are working trains from cabs on a daily basis for no good reason which is why the public are turning on them for being pointless.



The theory is that the fewer operational decision makers are involved, the lower the risk of miscommunication. Because the risk of injury is by far now highest at the platform for passengers, the theory is that having only the driver involved in dispatch is safest as there is less chance of a misunderstanding. Modern train CCTV systems can now give as good a view to the driver in the cab as a guard could on a platform and on some trains (long trains or curved platforms) CCTV is usually safer as there is a constant view of the platform until the train moves. A guard has to go back to the train, close the door etc. and during that time there could be an increase in risk of a passenger incident at the platform which went unseen. This is the RSSB theory.

The risk rate for non platform based incidents that affect passengers is so low on any train that there is no real effect on passenger safety. The chances of the driver being incapacitated and nobody besides the guard being quickly aware are as good as nil because of the technology improvements in the last twenty years on the railway. Every train in the UK has a radio system that can stop trains dead in seconds nowadays, which makes the old emergency protection arrangements largely redundant. This is why the minimum training requirement is making a REC.

The benefits of having a guard on board for passengers are heavily weighted towards tasks that have no operational effect on safety nowadays, as long as the train concerned has a CCTV system. Times have moved very quickly.

It is easy to forget how good the SWR offer on the table is: every train keeps a guard except in emergencies where the guard can’t be supplied last minute. It’s a strong offer when the alternatives could have been proposed genuine DOO conversion with staffing on the platforms where needed, etc.

Any negotiation that doesn’t allow to run a train without a guard when the guard is not available for an unplanned reason will not work for SWR. The RMT handing over door control etc. does nothing to make the service more reliable in those circumstances as the train still requires a guard to run.

This man, he speaks truth and sense as unpalatable to-wards union dinosaurs that it may be.
 

LowLevel

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If that was the ultimate goal, then why not just get on with it and make them redundant? Same as the argument used with Southern. Only Northern have said that they want ‘true’ Driver Only Operation for some of their routes. SWR have said they will employ more guards than they do presently, because there are more trains to be run.

According to posters on here, Southern has not cut its headcount or had less spare or cover turns since it made it’s changes, and publically they have said they employ more of the On Board Supervisors. Delays due to no guard available at the right place and time must be well down, however.

Just now the RMT have the power to negotiate the things listed above as concerns such as rostering and headcount. Shortly, they could lose their legal strike mandate, the new trains arrive, and it all be left to discussions with ASLEF they are then shut out from.



Driver Only Operation ‘in emergency’ is not conversion to Driver Only Operation in the normal method of working though. Therefore it could be argued the comments from SWR are misleading but not deliberate lies. The spokesman is right anyway - SWR did try to negotiate in the normal way, but refused to back down when the RMT refused to negotiate their plans, and the strikes are the normal outcome of negotiations that go along this path in the rail industry.

Remember that the contract means that SWR can claim relief from any losses for industrial action (as the RMT has now highlighted in press releases).

I disagree - Driver Controlled Operation in and of itself is the version of DOO whereby the second crew member is either required but has little operational function or is planned to be present but can be departed without if required. Thus the DCO referred to by their spokesman is the contingency issue anyway. I'd love to be a party to what has changed since that statement was made (and it was to their shareholders by the way - not to the trade unions or anyone else - regarding protecting their investment from disruption).

Otherwise there would be no need to mention DCO - you'd be in full DOO territory.
 

bahnause

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Modern train CCTV systems can now give as good a view to the driver in the cab as a guard could on a platform and on some trains (long trains or curved platforms) CCTV is usually safer as there is a constant view of the platform until the train moves. A guard has to go back to the train, close the door etc. and during that time there could be an increase in risk of a passenger incident at the platform which went unseen.
I drive DOO trains for 15(?) years now and all the CCTV systems I've come across are mediocre at best and unreliable in various weather conditions. I'm lucky I don't have to despatch a train relaying on one of these things. The change to DOO led to a increase of SPADS, a lot of effort goes into reducing them now.
 

jon0844

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All the DfT ever needed to do with this was to state that a second member of staff would be retained on that route, and make it so that any future bid would HAVE to include that. Then it wouldn't be a concern that when the franchises change, it all flares up again.

I guess the DfT is not willing to make such a commitment, and is also happy to through the TOC under a bus to implement their plans.
 

Carlisle

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All the DfT ever needed to do with this was to state that a second member of staff would be retained on that route, and make it so that any future bid would HAVE to include that. T.
Looking at the bigger picture, why would the railways main governing body deem it essential to fund a traditional guard on every train indefinitely on say the Hampton Court or Shepperton branch when the nearby and almost identical Epsom downs, Tattenham Corner or Slough branches have operated perfectly successfully without one for the last 25 years.
 
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jon0844

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If the guard position is changed, so it's more about revenue, customer service and assisting people on and off the train, you have a business case for more of them.

I think it's logical and inevitable that on board staff won't deal with the doors, as modern technology has allowed the driver to have a full view of the train, which is better than a guard using his or her eyes (consider if there's heavy rain or fog).

I would retain safety critical training so in the event of the cameras failing, the OBS can step in. Likewise, first aid, evacuating a train etc.

If a Government makes it so trains have staff, it will be factored in to all bids.

Alternatively, you have every station (no matter the size) staffed for assisting passengers.

I am not saying what is best, but the DfT could sort a lot of the problems by not having a company with a short franchise having to do their dirty work.
 

Three-Nine

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Unlikely to catch out anyone here, but just in case - some enquiry systems are showing (or they were this morning) the 11:25 Exeter - Waterloo train as running tomorrow (31st July); this is almost certainly an error; attempts have been made to get this corrected.
 
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I think it is inevitable the services at least on the Metro routes with non commercial guards are made DOO operation, and if they can provide a second person on board that is brilliant and better than most other DOO routes. I do believe Stagecoach like most of the other franchises before did not want the hassle of a long DOO dispute but they may as well get on with it whilst its happening everywhere else.

It is still very shady what the actual plans are going forward but personally I wouldn't be against DOO in the London area with a revenue and safety trained second person on board providing customer service. On the long distance routes its debatable whether there is any benefits as stations will not be staffed to the same levels and they should provide a guard similar to intercity in my opinion.
 

FenMan

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"as stations will not be staffed to the same levels"

Is this a euphemism for stations that are not staffed at all?
 
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