Crossrail timetable

[swt_passenger]

TfL? Tube map? I take it train tickets without a travel card wont be valid then. O well, I have completely lost interest in crossrail because of this plus the fact that no journey opportunities exist without changing.

I think you have completely missed the context of that post, which was part of a discussion that took place 6 months ago in response to an earlier question about the usefulness of a particular type of "third party" Crossrail route diagram, as linked to in post#28.
It was nothing much at all to do with fares, TfL, Tube maps, changes etc etc...

 

[Polarbear]

I've been asked a question regarding Crossrail - namely about through services between Reading & Stratford. I've done some research & have dug out two maps that appear to show differing timetable patterns.

https://cdn.londonreconnections.com/2013/COS-frequencies.png

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2017/one-of-the-family-crossrails-transition-to-being-a-tube/

Am I correct in thinking that the current plans don't envisage any through services between Reading & Stratford? I appreciate that given the distance, and the stopping patterns, that it will almost certainly be quicker in most instances to take a fast service from Reading to Paddington/Old Oak Common (when it opens) and change onto Crossrail there.

 

[ijmad]

I've been asked a question regarding Crossrail - namely about through services between Reading & Stratford. I've done some research & have dug out two maps that appear to show differing timetable patterns.

Am I correct in thinking that the current plans don't envisage any through services between Reading & Stratford? I appreciate that given the distance, and the stopping patterns, that it will almost certainly be quicker in most instances to take a fast service from Reading to Paddington/Old Oak Common (when it opens) and change onto Crossrail there.

There was a change a while ago that upped Reading services to 4tph, and Heathrow services to 4tph. There was an announcement later on that 2tph would additionally go to Heathrow Terminal 5, and another diagram that shows the inferred provisional service pattern as a result to be found here, which is slightly newer than the two you posted and shows the split you describe.

So as you can see, yes, the intention seems to be to have all Shenfield services terminal at Paddington, and all services from the Western Branches run to Abbey Wood, at least in the peaks. Off-peak services might be more varied.

No doubt this is to isolate the East and West branches somewhat, as mixing in with other rail traffic may well be the main source of delays at either end. At least this way, you can keep 12tph of core services even when the GWR or GEML is totally hosed. I don't think of it as too bad a compromise, as the most you'll have to do is step off one train and step on to the one behind it (which will be 2.5 minutes later) at one of the nice shiny large core stations.

 

[Jpeg]

I know the expected tph in each section have been posted here, but londonist have put it in a nice diagram

https://londonist.com/london/transport/how-frequently-will-crossrail-trains-run

 

[matt_world2004]

I know the expected tph in each section have been posted here, but londonist have put it in a nice diagram

https://londonist.com/london/transport/how-frequently-will-crossrail-trains-run

View attachment 50350

If the 2tph to terminal 5 only stops at ealing broadway.that will kill the heathrow express. . i thought the plan was that that between Hayes and paddington each train will have a stopping pattern that allows a 16 minute travel time between Hayes and Paddington. With each branch missing out a certain number of stops to achieve that . the terminal 4 trains are not going to be an all station stopper because of the freight trains

 

[LLivery]

Well, that's quite a timetable pattern if correct. Fast Heathrow services would make the Express a total waste of time and capacity. Better get rid of it and extend some of the disappointingly high number of Paddington starters/terminators. That said, how could it run fast unless it used the mains? And of course is problematic with the 345s being 90mph. Also, when was the last time the mains platforms at Ealing Broadway were used?

With Paddington, it still feels like another western branch of Crossrail wouldn't go amiss.

 

[cactustwirly]

Well, that's quite a timetable pattern if correct. Fast Heathrow services would make the Express a total waste of time and capacity. Better get rid of it and extend some of the disappointingly high number of Paddington starters/terminators. That said, how could it run fast unless it used the mains? And of course is problematic with the 345s being 90mph. Also, when was the last time the mains platforms at Ealing Broadway were used?

With Paddington, it still feels like another western branch of Crossrail wouldn't go amiss.

Last week! They get used late at night and on Sundays when the Relief lines are closed.
The T5 Crossrail trains will definately be on the relief lines, I don't think there will be the capacity for the XR trains on the mains, and there are better uses for it.

 

[AlanFry1]

Why are there no semi fasts from Stratford?

 

[swt_passenger]

Why are there no semi fasts from Stratford?

It’s an all stations Metro service on the east side. There’ll be nowhere for trains to overtake at the frequency they’re operating at, I don’t think semi fasts have ever been proposed at all.

 

[AlanFry1]

It’s an all stations Metro service on the east side. There’ll be nowhere for trains to overtake at the frequency they’re operating at, I don’t think semi fasts have ever been proposed at all.

In the peak at the mo on TFL Rail, there are mostly semi fasts in operation - e.g. skipping maryland, forest gate, manor pk, then all stations to gidea park...

 

[Ronnie268]

In the peak at the mo on TFL Rail, there are mostly semi fasts in operation - e.g. skipping maryland, forest gate, manor pk, then all stations to gidea park...

Yes, and the number of times there are delays started by long dwells at Forest Gate and Manor Park shows just why these stations need the extra services/regular stopping pattern.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'll be honest, those semi-fasts don't work properly, routinely they take longer than the all-stations off-peak services do, often due to long dwell times from the overcrowding between Stratford and Ilford (or as far back as Romford in the AM peak when there is any level of disruption). The idea, I imagine, is that with 16tph 9-car during the peak, and and 10tph off-peak versus the 15tph and 6tph running with 315s now plus the extra capacity of the 345s will mean there's no need to omit those stops so that everyone fits on the train.

 

[AlanFry1]

I'll be honest, those semi-fasts don't work properly, routinely they take longer than the all-stations off-peak services do, often due to long dwell times from the overcrowding between Stratford and Ilford (or as far back as Romford in the AM peak when there is any level of disruption). The idea, I imagine, is that with 16tph 9-car during the peak, and and 10tph off-peak versus the 15tph and 6tph running with 315s now plus the extra capacity of the 345s will mean there's no need to omit those stops so that everyone fits on the train.

315s are being kept?

 

[samuelmorris]

Not that I know of (although they probably will be longer than originally intended) - my point is, even at the same tph 345s offer a considerable increase in capacity over 315s by virtue of both their length and their extra standing space, this removes the need to operate semi-fast trains just so people can actually board them at all.

 

[LLivery]

Last week! They get used late at night and on Sundays when the Relief lines are closed.
The T5 Crossrail trains will definately be on the relief lines, I don't think there will be the capacity for the XR trains on the mains, and there are better uses for it.

Oh right! I haven't ventured along the GWML for probably two years. If they're all on the reliefs surely that timetable just isn't possible factoring the GWR and freight services.

Why are there no semi fasts from Stratford?

That would effectively make it an East-West Thameslink. We couldn't possibly have that.

Seriously though, there's probably no capacity and the Shenfield services are incredibly popular.

E-W Thameslink would've been great but a big timetabling headache.

 

[radamfi]

Which trains are going to stop at Old Oak Common from 2026? Will there be changes to the above Crossrail service pattern then?

 

[swt_passenger]

Which trains are going to stop at Old Oak Common from 2026? Will there be changes to the above Crossrail service pattern then?

Probably all, as shown on the drawings there are expected to be two platforms on each line ie 4 relief and 4 main, to allow for everything on both reliefs and main to stop.

 

[radamfi]

Probably all, as shown on the drawings there are expected to be two platforms on each line ie 4 relief and 4 main, to allow for everything on both reliefs and main to stop.

Do you mean all Heathrow Express and Great Western trains as well?

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you mean all Heathrow Express and Great Western trains as well?

Yes, that’s the idea.

 

[iphone76]

I do wonder how they will manage to stop the Romford to Gidea Park bottle neck if they terminate 4 trains at Gidea Park during the peak with 12 other trains continuing to Shenfield. I'd also imagine that will be quite a short turnaround at Shenfield. (Its very short now in terms of driver's diagrams).

Having seen whats happening with Thameslink, I'm beginning to think this will all be very ambitious.

 

[Mintona]

Probably all, as shown on the drawings there are expected to be two platforms on each line ie 4 relief and 4 main, to allow for everything on both reliefs and main to stop.

Have these drawings been posted on this forum? I’d be interested to have a look if they have, but I’ve not come across them myself.

Apologies for this being slightly outside the scope of the thread.

 

[swt_passenger]

Have these drawings been posted on this forum? I’d be interested to have a look if they have, but I’ve not come across them myself.

Apologies for this being slightly outside the scope of the thread.

It’ll be in the HS2 forum somewhere, probably quite a while ago. There’s a platform layout here, superimposed on the existing tracks and depots:
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hs2-maps-20120110/hs2arp00drrw05112issue4.pdf

 

[Mintona]

It’ll be in the HS2 forum somewhere, probably quite a while ago. There’s a platform layout here, superimposed on the existing tracks and depots:
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hs2-maps-20120110/hs2arp00drrw05112issue4.pdf

Thanks!

 

[hwl]

Which trains are going to stop at Old Oak Common from 2026? Will there be changes to the above Crossrail service pattern then?

Crossrail (OOC) - Paddington Turnback ends and all 24tph extended West to OOC. CR terminating trains reverse in the NNML Crossrail spur.
GWR and HS2 everything as there will be 2 platforms per track for the GWML to ensure stopping isn't an issue on capacity (see London Bridge Charing Cross lines platforms operation)

I very much suspect Londonist have no idea what the stopping pattern of the T5 services is as it is reality recent addition for CR so have probably just put Ealing Broadway down to avoid causing any disappointment, also unlikely to be all stops due to freight path issues.

 

[700007]

Does anyone know how many freight paths are generally granted an hour on the western branch?

 

[cactustwirly]

Does anyone know how many freight paths are generally granted an hour on the western branch?

From RTT, during the day it looks to be about 4tph in each direction.
There's a lot more at night, and less during the peak times

 

[si404]

If the 2tph to terminal 5 only stops at ealing broadway.that will kill the heathrow express. . i thought the plan was that that between Hayes and paddington each train will have a stopping pattern that allows a 16 minute travel time between Hayes and Paddington. With each branch missing out a certain number of stops to achieve that . the terminal 4 trains are not going to be an all station stopper because of the freight trains

Londonist has got the 'how many trains stop at this station' right, but whether their other assumptions are correct is a different matter.

They assume that services are either all-day or peak-only, rather than their being different calls off-peak than peak. They also assume that there would be an even and consistent London service to/from West Drayton with the same stopping patterns.

As such, interesting solutions (eg the 2tph that skip H&H not necessarily being the 2tph that skip Southall, or the 2tph additional peak stops at Ealing Broadway, Southall, H&H, Iver, Slough, Burnham, Taplow, Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading not necessarily being on the same service) don't exist.

I think 4tph T4-T23-H&H-Southall-Hanwell-Ealing Bdwy-Acton ML-Paddington can be safely penned in. However, while they will all go to Abbey Wood at peak times, off-peak 2tph will go to Shenfield in order to keep even 15-minute headways at Heathrow, and even 6-minute headways on the eastern branches.

How's this for west of Paddington? It's not perfect, but it's a little bit more even in the stop-skipping.
peak (3 lots of 4tph):
4tph T4-T23-H&H-Southall-Hanwell-Ealing Bdwy-Acton ML-Paddington

2tph T5-T23-H&H-Southall-W Ealing-Ealing Bdwy-Paddington
2tph Maidenhead-Taplow-Burnham-Slough-W Drayton-H&H-Southall-W Ealing-Ealing Bdwy-Pad

2tph Reading-Tywford-Maidenhead-Taplow-Slough-Langley-Iver-W Drayton-H&H-Ealing Bdwy-Pad
2tph Reading-Tywford-Maidenhead-Burnham-Slough-Langley-Iver-W Drayton-Southall-E Bdwy-Pad

off-peak (4+2+4:
4tph T4-T23-H&H-Southall-Hanwell-Ealing Bdwy-Acton ML-Paddington

2tph T5-T23-H&H-Southall-Ealing Bdwy-Paddington

2tph Maidenhead-Taplow-Burnham-Slough-Langley-W Drayton-Southall-W Ealing-Ealing Bdwy-Pad
2tph Reading-Twyford-Maidenhead-Slough-Langley-Iver-W Drayton-H&H-W Ealing-Ealing Bdwy-Pad

 

[samuelmorris]

Is that a desire or based on anything official? I would much prefer it if there were direct services all four ways off-peak. I understand that isn't necessarily practical, but particularly in the case of Heathrow with heavy luggage, not having to change onto busy trains is the primary benefit of using Crossrail instead of having to use the NR services either side and the tube in between.

 

[prod_pep]

315s are being kept?

20 of the Class 315s are staying on lease until late 2020 so it is likely that some will remain for a couple more years at least. I know it was proposed as an option to retain a batch of 315s for use on the Liverpool St High Level - Gidea Park peak runs and refurbish these with longitudinal seating, but my understanding is that Liverpool Street will have some platforms extended to accommodate full length 345s, eliminating the need to retain any 315s long-term.

 

[si404]

I would much prefer it if there were direct services all four ways off-peak.

Either you don't have an even 15 minute service at Heathrow T4, or you don't have an even 6 minute service pattern at Shenfield or Abbey Wood if you don't have Heathrow-Shenfield, as well as Abbey Wood services off peak.

Every 15 minutes at Heathrow T4 is a physical constraint, so it's whether they are happy to have 9 minute gaps at Stratford or Canary Wharf - surely neither good even off-peak - as to whether they have west-of-Paddington trains running to both eastern branches.

And if you are doing that, then you might as well try to make Slough have even-ish gaps (the 2tph stop/2tph skip specification at Iver creating slight issues there) off-peak as well, by having services to both Abbey Wood and Shenfield.