Train stabling sidings for Scarborough

[DarloRich]

In general they do, Of course there are caveats to that but I believe posts prior to this post and after your lasy one have answered this.

Thanks for that - i am fairly certain I understand the process.

 

[Coolzac]

What about the turntable? From what I can see from google maps, that site is where the turntable is?

 

[ainsworth74]

What about the turntable? From what I can see from google maps, that site is where the turntable is?

The site is a bit further south than you're thinking. This link should take you there.

 

[Coolzac]

Ah I see. That's good news then!

 

[Swedish Keith]

All seems to have stopped at the site after the flurry of activity when it was cleared. Interesting to see the artist impression in a previous post and whilst the cynic might say it's a glorified siding it is good that Scarborough will have a depot of sorts on pretty much the site of the old depot once again. Anyone any news on next steps at the site?

 

[DunfordBridge]

That gate off the garage forecourt is a long standing railway access point to the west end of the old sidings.
If the extent of the trackwork is as per the image, then any affect on Scarborough Spa excursions should be minimal.

Planning permission aside, how exactly is the depot going to be serviced? Maybe driving round the side of Currys. I cannot see the car dealership being pleased about contractors and tankers driving across their land. Maybe, the fuel is gong to arrive by rail.

 

[lincolnshire]

Fuel been delivered by rail will be a non-starter as that will cost a fortune to get it there.a lot of depots get fuel delivered by road as its cheaper and more accessible now than by rail. Since the land was previously a rail connected site then most probably Network Rail will still have access right of way to the land like at the turntable end where they have a very large gate to access that area near to Howdens Joiney & Tool Station.

 

[kevinbev]

There appears to be access to the site through the CurrysPCWorld loading area, there is a gate which says something like network rail staff only. I also noticed the other day that there are rails laid within the tracks prior to the site.

 

[DarloRich]

Fuel been delivered by road will be a non-starter as that will cost a fortune to get it there.a lot of depots get fuel delivered by road as its cheaper and more accessible now than by rail. Since the land was previously a rail connected site then most probably Network Rail will still have access right of way to the land like at the turntable end where they have a very large gate to access that area near to Howdens Joiney & Tool Station.

I am fairly certain that fuel will come in by road. The volume required makes it very likely.

 

[scarby]

All seems to have stopped at the site after the flurry of activity when it was cleared. Interesting to see the artist impression in a previous post and whilst the cynic might say it's a glorified siding it is good that Scarborough will have a depot of sorts on pretty much the site of the old depot once again. Anyone any news on next steps at the site?

Dunno. It still looked exactly the same yesterday, with the area cleared and lots of rails, that I think were delivered in January, lying between it and Londesborough Road.

 

[Swedish Keith]

Thats all I could see too when Ive looked. In Rail magazine a wee while ago it said the depot was due for completion in Summer 2018 which seems a bit tight now time wise(?) I read on another thread that the 68s and mk3 coaches are due to run on the Scarborough line later this month but if so it seems the depot not needed for this.

 

[filey donkey]

I believe the delay has been caused by west coast objecting to the plans because it impacts there running of trains, ie they will not be able to stable trains in platform 1 overnight at scarborough because access to londesborough road sidings is via platform 1 only, the last two tpe services in on a night and the first two out on a morning require the use of platform 1. the nearest siding is seamer for west coast to overnight in and not ideal.

 

[filey donkey]

The objection has been rejected so the work on the depot should start soon, maybe lol.

 

[DunfordBridge]

Dunno. It still looked exactly the same yesterday, with the area cleared and lots of rails, that I think were delivered in January, lying between it and Londesborough Road.

I went to the garage on Saturday that is immediately adjacent to the site and still no change. Here is a photo of the site from less recent times this year.

 

[MarkyT]

Seamer siding is not that far away for WC to store their stock, although there might be security issues if the signalbox is unstaffed in no train periods. Alternatively it might be possible to shunt the stock to a different platform at Scarborough if early and late TPEs need to use #1. The stock might be split across two of the shorter platforms if a single platform was not long enough. The problem with stabling on the excursion sidings is that due to lack of a wide 10 foot clearance it is not allowed to stable any stock on the road nearest the running line, which can only be used for run round purposes.

 

[Ploughman]

Security at Seamer is and has been for a long time an issue.
I would also suggest that minimal maintenance will have been done on the loop and siding.
Probably got a bit of a looking at when they remodelled Scarborough a while back.
I know it was deemed not suitable for some ballast trains involved on works on the Hull - Seamer line about 10 years back.

Whereas the run round at Scarborough would see fairly regular traffic through the year and would get maintained with that in mind.

 

[DunfordBridge]

Seamer siding is not that far away for WC to store their stock, although there might be security issues if the signalbox is unstaffed in no train periods. Alternatively it might be possible to shunt the stock to a different platform at Scarborough if early and late TPEs need to use #1. The stock might be split across two of the shorter platforms if a single platform was not long enough. The problem with stabling on the excursion sidings is that due to lack of a wide 10 foot clearance it is not allowed to stable any stock on the road nearest the running line, which can only be used for run round purposes.

Live and learn! I was not aware of the minimum requirement of ten foot although, as Scarborough is a terminal station, the speed on the down line into the station is hardly excessive. I believe it changes from 45 to 35 halfway along the excursion platform before you get to the signal gantry.

There is just one thing that is not clear in my mind. You have both an arrival line (adjacent to the down line) and a departure line adjacent to the Washbeck excursion platform and the furthest from the down line (running line). Would the West Coast stock simply not be stabled on the departure line by Washbeck? This would keep the stock at a respectable distance from the running line.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I don't think the railways need planning permission from local councils, I think it's just granted by the DFT.

I suggest that PP is needed for development or change of use on non operational land such as admin office blocks, but not for buildings used for operational purposes such as control offices.

 

[dilbertphil]

Latest suggestions are it will be ready for December when the Mark 5's arrive.

 

[MarkyT]

There is just one thing that is not clear in my mind. You have both an arrival line (adjacent to the down line) and a departure line adjacent to the Washbeck excursion platform and the furthest from the down line (running line). Would the West Coast stock simply not be stabled on the departure line by Washbeck? This would keep the stock at a respectable distance from the running line.

I don't think the sidings track layout works for that at the moment. From posts above I gather there will be two TPE sets stabled overnight and I assume they may both need to be shunted around to the far end through the night to access the new servicing and refuel facilities. They will need to use the line adjacent to the old excursion platform as the headhunt to do this I reckon. If the handpoint crossover near the turntable turnout was reconfigured from left to right handed, the siding nearer the running line might be used as the headshunt instead. Once servicing/refuel is complete both sets can be stabled on top of each other at the far end beyond the turntable on the outer line.

 

[SeanG]

I suggest that PP is needed for development or change of use on non operational land such as admin office blocks, but not for buildings used for operational purposes such as control offices.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/pdfs/uksi_20150596_en.pdf will clarify

 

[chorleyjeff]

Well. To save time which part of the Act is relevant ? Have there been any amendments ?
I had in mind the Staniee House case.

 

[DunfordBridge]

I don't think the sidings track layout works for that at the moment. From posts above I gather there will be two TPE sets stabled overnight and I assume they may both need to be shunted around to the far end through the night to access the new servicing and refuel facilities. They will need to use the line adjacent to the old excursion platform as the headhunt to do this I reckon. If the handpoint crossover near the turntable turnout was reconfigured from left to right handed, the siding nearer the running line might be used as the headshunt instead. Once servicing/refuel is complete both sets can be stabled on top of each other at the far end beyond the turntable on the outer line.

So what you are saying is that the new depot can only be accessed by the departure line due to the crossover by the turn table running from the departure line to the arrival line (adj. Down line) in the up direction?

I have just played back a cab ride, admittedly, it will be a few years old now, and from what I can tell, the arrival line merges rightward with the departure line by means of a set of trailing points just before the Gas Works bridge (Underbridge 22) that I gather is at the entrance of the depot, so I would have thought it would be possible to send a Mark 5A set all the way up the Arrival line up to the site of the new depot. Not sure if this set of points still exists in 2018 as it must be a few weeks since I caught the train, at least on that stretch.

 

[MarkyT]

So what you are saying is that the new depot can only be accessed by the departure line due to the crossover by the turn table running from the departure line to the arrival line (adj. Down line) in the up direction?

I have just played back a cab ride, admittedly, it will be a few years old now, and from what I can tell, the arrival line merges rightward with the departure line by means of a set of trailing points just before the Gas Works bridge (Underbridge 22) that I gather is at the entrance of the depot, so I would have thought it would be possible to send a Mark 5A set all the way up the Arrival line up to the site of the new depot. Not sure if this set of points still exists in 2018 as it must be a few weeks since I caught the train, at least on that stretch.

I think it's the second train into the sidings that may be the problem. Assuming the first set and loco can get entirely into the depot spur at its extremity where fuelling and servicing takes place (approx 160m standage I estimate), it will then have to move out again to siding No.2 to make room for the second train to be serviced. If there was a WC excursion set in the old excursion platfrom road The second set in would have to wait its turn for servicing on the track adjacent to the down running line, siding No 1, which may not be permitted according to what interpretation is made of this local instruction from the sectional appendix:

LN880 – YORK TO SCARBOROUGH
SCARBOROUGH
Excursion Sidings
Due to there being restricted clearance between the Excursion Siding No.1 and the Down Scarborough line, Excursion Siding No.1 must not be used for stabling of trains including Engineering Trains and On Track machines, and must only be used for run-round movements. No person must walk along the side of a train/vehicle standing on Excursion Siding No.1 unless the Down Scarborough line has been closed to traffic.

Bit of a grey area I think. The second sentence of the instruction acknowledges that there may indeed be a train on No.1 siding, but how long can it stand before being counted as 'stabled', and are crew effectively trapped on board until it can move somewhere else where they can safely alight. This all might be allowed with another trapped key lockout instrument for the down line approaching the station home signal situated in the depot. There are lockouts in the station area so engineering staff can isolate each platform individually, and a general one in the throat area which disables all movements in or out of the station inside the home signal. My additional lockout would disable inbound moves on the down approaching the station home to protect any crew alighting from a set waiting on No.1 siding. Normally this should be no problem I guess as the second train into the siding will usually be the last incoming train of the night anyway, but this would provide peace of mind if there were any engineering or other special movements running later.

 

[Swedish Keith]

As I headed out on the train yesterday morning for the day I think I saw something happening on site in the form of a digger and a few people milling about. However on my return early evening all appeared quiet again so maybe I imagined it(?!) I did see the rails that have been delivered which seem to go all the way back to Londesborough Road station.

 

[DunfordBridge]

As I headed out on the train yesterday morning for the day I think I saw something happening on site in the form of a digger and a few people milling about. However on my return early evening all appeared quiet again so maybe I imagined it(?!) I did see the rails that have been delivered which seem to go all the way back to Londesborough Road station.

When I travelled on a weekly season ticket to York (which was an experience in itself), in the week previous, I also noticed the same digger, inactive at different points of the site, but minus the workers.

I think it's the second train into the sidings that may be the problem. Assuming the first set and loco can get entirely into the depot spur at its extremity where fuelling and servicing takes place (approx 160m standage I estimate), it will then have to move out again to siding No.2 to make room for the second train to be serviced. If there was a WC excursion set in the old excursion platfrom road The second set in would have to wait its turn for servicing on the track adjacent to the down running line, siding No 1, which may not be permitted according to what interpretation is made of this local instruction from the sectional appendix:

Bit of a grey area I think. The second sentence of the instruction acknowledges that there may indeed be a train on No.1 siding, but how long can it stand before being counted as 'stabled', and are crew effectively trapped on board until it can move somewhere else where they can safely alight. This all might be allowed with another trapped key lockout instrument for the down line approaching the station home signal situated in the depot. There are lockouts in the station area so engineering staff can isolate each platform individually, and a general one in the throat area which disables all movements in or out of the station inside the home signal. My additional lockout would disable inbound moves on the down approaching the station home to protect any crew alighting from a set waiting on No.1 siding. Normally this should be no problem I guess as the second train into the siding will usually be the last incoming train of the night anyway, but this would provide peace of mind if there were any engineering or other special movements running later.

Very informed answer as always, MarkyT. The signals between Seamer and Scarborough, prefixed, YS, I understand are controlled by Seamer. I am guessing that all these signals revert to red overnight, possibly excluding the distant signals, once the signal box at Seamer closes at the end of the day. I am not sure if this practice of closing, if correct would continue but as far as I can gather, the night crew would be protected because no rail traffic would be able to proceed any further than the signal adjacent to Curry's on the down line which always seems to be at red by default, unless a train is due, or even proceed past Seamer itself. So maybe the station lock-out is automatic. Thinking about it, all the signals that are green by default, are on the up line on that stretch of track.

Makes me wonder how the trains are going to be marshalled ready for the next morning. Surely, they are not planning on sending them both into platform 1. I cannot see that being a popular move with passengers. Shunting into other platforms would involve some pretty elaborate movements though. Interesting is how the first train from Scarborough to Hull is not stabled overnight anymore as the crew bring the train into the station on a morning as Empty Coaching Stock now. Maybe this increases the options for shunting movements for the new mark 5 stock.

 

[Swedish Keith]

After weeks of apparently not much happening, yesterday I saw quite a bit going on at the entrance to what will be the depot and further up near the turntable. Scaffolding barriers put up between the main line and the sidings and various bits of the siding track being cut up. Did make me smile given that a few months ago there was reference to getting the work done at a time not to interfere with Summer excursions and it's day the schools break up! Anyway, took a couple of photos...

 

[david boole]

After weeks of apparently not much happening, yesterday I saw quite a bit going on at the entrance to what will be the depot and further up near the turntable. Scaffolding barriers put up between the main line and the sidings and various bits of the siding track being cut up. Did make me smile given that a few months ago there was reference to getting the work done at a time not to interfere with Summer excursions and it's day the schools break up! Anyway, took a couple of photos...View attachment 49811

I understand NR are moving a set of points closer to the turntable to enable the sidings track to be removed in preparation for the build of the depot. I believe this work will be completed by Tuesday. I also understand No other track works will be done until after the summer season

 

[Swedish Keith]

Thanks for the update David. I had a drive up Oliver's Mount today and saw that building materials have been delivered (see photo). I may be being simplistic (& apologies if this has been raised before) but to solve the problems about platform 1 and excursions etc could they not just stick in a new connection to the depot between the depot and the turntable?

 

[trawler]

I still don't understand why they are building a depot at Scarborough. Surely they could use York?