Schoolboys left injured after playing near rail line to sue over 'psychological trauma'

[GB]

Thankyou for that. I do get annoyed by the keep nine feet away hysteria.

Hysteria? Where? 9 feet has been determined by the powers that be to be the absolute safe distance taking into account all potential circumstances including human and margin for error. Just because it might be possible to be a few feet away without being zapped doesn't make it a safe or clever approach to employees or passengers lives. The goal is to get everyone home at the end of the day isn't it? So whats the problem with being extra careful?

 

[SouthStand]

If you have more sympathy over a dog dying than a human being, regardless of the circumstances, then I pity you.

It's called self responsibility.

 

[50039]

Wearing my Chartered Electrical Engineer's hat I think you might be surprised just how close you can get to a 25kV line in safety. The usually accepted figure for the breakdown voltage of dry air is 1kV per mm. That means you would have to be within an 25mm for the danger of an arc. Of course dampness and salinity of the air increase that distance. You wouldn't get me within a foot of an energised 25kV line.

As a Mechanical Engineer, I consider myself both surprised and educated - I find it staggering that 25kV doesn’t arc further... but like you, I wouldn’t want to get that close....

 

[mmh]

I've read two RAIB reports that were linked to on the forum this week, both about electrocution, both about drivers, yet this thread carries on with elfin safety gorn mad it wasn't like this in my day fences are only needed to stop animals nanny state etc etc

 

[geoffk]

I've read two RAIB reports that were linked to on the forum this week, both about electrocution, both about drivers, yet this thread carries on with elfin safety gorn mad it wasn't like this in my day fences are only needed to stop animals nanny state etc etc

Sadly we live in an age when every incident is someone else's fault.

 

[Rail Blues]

This reminds me of a case some ten years ago where a boy was swinging on some railings in a supermarket, fell off, smashed his head open on the floor and died. The mother sued the supermarket, saying the railings were dangerous and/or shouldn't have been there. I don't recall ever hearing the outcome of the case though.

Anyone can threaten to sue anyone and hire a lawyer to pursue their case. I could instruct a lawyer to sue these bards for emotional trauma for having to read ludicrous suggestions for what to do with a class 442. Doesn't mean it has any legal merit or that it will succeed.

 

[DarloRich]

Anyone can threaten to sue anyone and hire a lawyer to pursue their case. I could instruct a lawyer to sue these bards for emotional trauma for having to read ludicrous suggestions for what to do with a class 442. Doesn't mean it has any legal merit or that it will succeed.

no you couldn't. At best you could agree to pay a solicitor a lot of money to send a letter. It would be subject to the Pressdram response.

I don't understand spending money on fences at all. If you want to get on the track its not hard at all. Have you seen some of the places you see graffiti? I can't imagine how some of that stuff gets where it gets.

Places where people commit suicide have been fenced up near where I live. You can drive you car about 2 minutes down the line and find spots where there is almost nothing stopping you getting on the track. A complete waste of money in some circumstances.

I am going to try one final time : PLEASE read the linked case further up the thread. There are several precis on line if the judgement is too complicated. Please note the date and the terms of the judgement. Then consider your posting in that light.

( i use the above quite to illustrate a point)

 

[theironroad]

Wearing my Chartered Electrical Engineer's hat I think you might be surprised just how close you can get to a 25kV line in safety. The usually accepted figure for the breakdown voltage of dry air is 1kV per mm. That means you would have to be within an 25mm for the danger of an arc. Of course dampness and salinity of the air increase that distance. You wouldn't get me within a foot of an energised 25kV line.

I'm pretty sure the lad mentioned when he was on the freight train roof was more than 25mm away from the ohle, didn't come into contact with it but today has severe life changing injuries through burns.

 

[Rail Blues]

no you couldn't. At best you could agree to pay a solicitor a lot of money to send a letter. It would be subject to the Pressdram response.



I am going to try one final time : PLEASE read the linked case further up the thread. There are several precis on line if the judgement is too complicated. Please note the date and the terms of the judgement. Then consider your posting in that light.

( i use the above quite to illustrate a point)

I phrased that badly, of course it wouldn't see the inside of a courtroom, I could nevertheless threaten to sue and appoint solicitors and simultaneously make noises to the press, who invariably lap up these spurious cases without it getting anywhere near a courtroom.

 

[Parham Wood]

I recall a case at the old Allerton, Liverpool traction maintenance depot, possibly after it shut. There were some carriages, wagons or EMUs still kept there and some children got through a hole in the fence, climbed onto the top of one of the wagons and one was electrocuted if I recall correctly. I believe NR were held liable in court. I seem to recall that the fence had been mended at least once but was cut through again by locals.

 

[haddock1000]

Wearing my Chartered Electrical Engineer's hat I think you might be surprised just how close you can get to a 25kV line in safety. The usually accepted figure for the breakdown voltage of dry air is 1kV per mm. That means you would have to be within an 25mm for the danger of an arc. Of course dampness and salinity of the air increase that distance. You wouldn't get me within a foot of an energised 25kV line.

Isn't 25kV the RMS voltage? I also believe that there can be a variance in the RMS voltage by +/- 2.5kV! This means that the largest peak to ground voltage would be 27.5kV*sqrt(2), which would be around 38.8kV. The distance that you should stand away from a live wire is also a function of how far you can reach. AFAIK all the railway standards are written such that a live exposed wire should be a certain distance (3.5m?) from any standable surface. Anything that doesn't achieve that needs to be mitigated, usually by building walls (such as those on overbridges), or adding earthed wire mesh (or a fence) so you cant touch it (and usually to prevent anyone from climbing up any structures like OHLE masts).

 

[dcbwhaley]

I'm pretty sure the lad mentioned when he was on the freight train roof was more than 25mm away from the ohle, didn't come into contact with it but today has severe life changing injuries through burns.

So you are saying that well established physical laws are wrong on the anecdotal evidence of a thirteen year old boy?

 

[NorthLondonRly]

In much of continental Europe many lines aren't fenced even when there is OHLE around, I wonder how they treat cases such as this?

 

[GB]

So you are saying that well established physical laws are wrong on the anecdotal evidence of a thirteen year old boy?

Your own previous post said certain things can affect the distance the electricity can jump and that you would not be within 1 foot of an energised line 25KV line. If you believe so much in the "well established physical laws" then why have you got a problem being within 1 foot of it?

 

[Chrisgr31]

The outcome of this case will be dependent upon the facts. We need to know: -

Was there a hole in the fence?
How often was the fence inspected?
Had the hole previously been seen by the rail company and not fixed?
Had anyone reported the hole to the rail company, if so when?
Was there a history of holes being made in the fence here, if so had the type of fence been changed to make it more secure?

If the hole had been reported to the rail company 6 months in advance of the accident and they did nothing about it then there will struggle to defend themselves. If the fence is made of steel palisade and was checked the morning of the event and found secure then they should be able to defend themselves.

The actual answer is going to be somewhere between the two and effectively that is what the lawyer is potentially relying on. It will cost the rail company tens of thousands of pounds if the case goes to court, theres an x% chance of them losing and having to pay £y in compensation. So ultimately the rail company might decde its better to pay £z in compensation so they know the exact costs.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Your own previous post said certain things can affect the distance the electricity can jump and that you would not be within 1 foot of an energised line 25KV line. If you believe so much in the "well established physical laws" then why have you got a problem being within 1 foot of it?

Because it is so easy to stumble or involuntary move ones arm to keep ones balance. Which is probably what happened with the boy so that he touched the cable.

 

[dcbwhaley]

Isn't 25kV the RMS voltage? I also believe that there can be a variance in the RMS voltage by +/- 2.5kV! This means that the largest peak to ground voltage would be 27.5kV*sqrt(2), which would be around 38.8kV. The distance that you should stand away from a live wire is also a function of how far you can reach. AFAIK all the railway standards are written such that a live exposed wire should be a certain distance (3.5m?) from any standable surface. Anything that doesn't achieve that needs to be mitigated, usually by building walls (such as those on overbridges), or adding earthed wire mesh (or a fence) so you cant touch it (and usually to prevent anyone from climbing up any structures like OHLE masts).

Even at 40kV you are talking 40mm not nine feet. The safety standard is 3.5m, though it can be reduced to - I think 2.5m - in some circumstances. My original post was simply about the arcing distance at 25kV in air. The safety standard is based on people making a determined effort to touch the line. It is interesting that NW Grid's required clearance for a vehicle on a construction site is less than 1m.

 

[contrex]

The distance that you should stand away from a live wire is also a function of how far you can reach.

Or you can slip, trip, fall or stagger. And/or have a beer or two before signing on. My father was a distribution engineer for METESCO and post-nationalisation, the London Electricity Board. He let me read his 1959 edition of HW Swann's Electrical Safety . The book is not dry at all and has many anecdotes. He describes how in the 1920s, when he was a trainee, his old boss used to evaluate drawings of proposed substations, etc, using little cardboard "men" he made himself, to scale, with pivoted arms and legs. He would "stand" them in a zone required to be safe, then work the limbs about, make them fall over, etc, and see if he could get them to touch live metal. He said that this may not have been very scientific but it achieved its purpose. When the boss retired, he gave Swann a set of the little men.

 

[farleigh]

I wonder why they don't insulate the wires like household cables. Surely this would prevent this type of accident??

 

[johnnychips]

I wonder why they don't insulate the wires like household cables. Surely this would prevent this type of accident??

Because the pantograph wouldn’t be able to draw electricity from an insulated wire.

 

[farleigh]

Because the pantograph wouldn’t be able to draw electricity from an insulated wire.

Oh yes - of course.

 

[hooverboy]

Even at 40kV you are talking 40mm not nine feet. The safety standard is 3.5m, though it can be reduced to - I think 2.5m - in some circumstances. My original post was simply about the arcing distance at 25kV in air. The safety standard is based on people making a determined effort to touch the line. It is interesting that NW Grid's required clearance for a vehicle on a construction site is less than 1m.

people on here seem not to have read the arcing distance in the right context.

the distance quoted is "dry air" or 0% humidity.
typical RH will be somewhere between 40-70% so it is not "dry", hence a much greater clearance must be given.

dcbwhaley is also correct in stating that salinity in coastal environments will play a factor.

 

[eastdyke]

I recall a case at the old Allerton, Liverpool traction maintenance depot, possibly after it shut. There were some carriages, wagons or EMUs still kept there and some children got through a hole in the fence, climbed onto the top of one of the wagons and one was electrocuted if I recall correctly. I believe NR were held liable in court. I seem to recall that the fence had been mended at least once but was cut through again by locals.

I linked up-thread (#85) to the ORR list of successful prosecutions brought under H&S legislation (whether we like it or not that is part of their duty).
http://orr.gov.uk/rail/health-and-s...t/our-enforcement-action-to-date/prosecutions
This includes the Allerton Depot case where EWS was fined £180,000. The offence was dated 9 Aug 2009, sentencing 16 Nov 2012.

In the case of this Bescot incident, evidence will have been/is being collated and the Site Operator may face prosecution under H&S legislation. This would be separate from any claim brought by the parties to the article in the OP.

 

[eastdyke]

Or you can slip, trip, fall or stagger. And/or have a beer or two before signing on. My father was a distribution engineer for METESCO and post-nationalisation, the London Electricity Board. He let me read his 1959 edition of HW Swann's Electrical Safety . The book is not dry at all and has many anecdotes. He describes how in the 1920s, when he was a trainee, his old boss used to evaluate drawings of proposed substations, etc, using little cardboard "men" he made himself, to scale, with pivoted arms and legs. He would "stand" them in a zone required to be safe, then work the limbs about, make them fall over, etc, and see if he could get them to touch live metal. He said that this may not have been very scientific but it achieved its purpose. When the boss retired, he gave Swann a set of the little men.

I love the idea of that set of little men!
One of the test beds for UK 25kV rail electrification was Colchester-Clacton, brought into use 1959.
During the early days there were (and very sadly) 2 (??) deaths. Strangely my 2 sources each only mentions 1 seemingly different incident! I do wonder if some of the details are wrong in that there was in fact only 1 death.

Firstly in Eastern Electric by John Glover ISBN 0-7110-2934-2, the death of a steam loco fireman brought about a local test demonstration in April 1959.
It had been claimed that the fireman's death had been brought about by an arc from the overhead at a distance of 9 feet. A demonstration was arranged at Colchester St. Botolphs (now Town) 'using a J20 0-6-0 making plenty of smoke and a dummy man astride the boiler. This was done in front of a large industry audience. The contact wire, energised at 25 kV ac, was lowered gradually. A flashover did take place, but only when the wire was less than 2in above the top of the chimney.'

Secondly, reported locally as the 'first fatality on Colchester electric line' that occurred on 29th September 1959 when a steam loco driver was electrocuted, apparently cleaning his cab windows while stopped waiting for a clear signal.
Details, including zoomable contemporary press cutting, on Frinton & Walton Heritage Trust website railway page:
http://www.fwheritage.co.uk/RailwayDates.aspx

 

[dcbwhaley]

people on here seem not to have read the arcing distance in the right context.

the distance quoted is "dry air" or 0% humidity.
typical RH will be somewhere between 40-70% so it is not "dry", hence a much greater clearance must be given.

dcbwhaley is also correct in stating that salinity in coastal environments will play a factor.

Actually the figure for dry air is 3kV per mm. the 1kV per mm allows for humidity.

When I was at the CEGB salt on the big insulators on the transmission towers was a serious problem. It was necessary to was the insulators from time to tiime.

 

[dcbwhaley]

I love the idea of that set of little men!
One of the test beds for UK 25kV rail electrification was Colchester-Clacton, brought into use 1959.
During the early days there were (and very sadly) 2 (??) deaths. Strangely my 2 sources each only mentions 1 seemingly different incident! I do wonder if some of the details are wrong in that there was in fact only 1 death.

Firstly in Eastern Electric by John Glover ISBN 0-7110-2934-2, the death of a steam loco fireman brought about a local test demonstration in April 1959.
It had been claimed that the fireman's death had been brought about by an arc from the overhead at a distance of 9 feet. A demonstration was arranged at Colchester St. Botolphs (now Town) 'using a J20 0-6-0 making plenty of smoke and a dummy man astride the boiler. This was done in front of a large industry audience. The contact wire, energised at 25 kV ac, was lowered gradually. A flashover did take place, but only when the wire was less than 2in above the top of the chimney.'

Secondly, reported locally as the 'first fatality on Colchester electric line' that occurred on 29th September 1959 when a steam loco driver was electrocuted, apparently cleaning his cab windows while stopped waiting for a clear signal.
Details, including zoomable contemporary press cutting, on Frinton & Walton Heritage Trust website railway page:
http://www.fwheritage.co.uk/RailwayDates.aspx

2 inches is not wildly different from what I suggested, given that the chimney was probably emitting carbon polluted smoke.

 

[Bikeman78]

As the law dated back to 1845 the purpose of fencing was to stop the navvies building the railway from getting onto the adjoining landowners' property (and no doubt running off with their daughters). The standard byelaws provided that a breach was only committed if a person having been requested to leave the railway land, refused to do so. Under the Transport and Works Act 1992 the obligation on the Railway to fence was changed to one preventing persons getting on to the railway. The ORR seeks to impose on railways a standard of safety not required anywhere else in the world; one reason why we have high fares and frequent disruption to train services caused by trespassers.

Wow. I had no idea that the change was that recent.

 

[sbt]

People sueing McDonalds for the coffee being too hot?

Seems to be a US thing, do something you're not supposed to do then sue if you get injured as a result.

This is in part driven by the cost of medical treatment in the US. In some cases the decsion is 'sue or be homeless'. [1]

In the Liebeck vs McDonalds case Mrs Liebeck orginally asked McDonalds to cover her existing and expected medical costs plus the lost earnings of her daughter who had nursed her at home, $20,000. McDonalds offered $800, at which point Mrs Liebeck sued.

[1] This is a land where someone hit by a stray gunshot aimed at someone else whilst walking down a shopping street in daylight can end up owing $100,000s that they don't have for the medical care that saved their lives. Or be left behind by an ambulance because the crew don't think you look like someone able to cover their charges (in one case the ambulance firm is curently being sued on that one by the, now dead, patients mother).

 

[sbt]

As soon as the fence is fixed it could be broken again. If people go through broken fences they expect it to be broken.

This is true. However the law only requires the person responsible to take 'Reasonable Steps' (or similar wording).

 

[sbt]

Places where people commit suicide have been fenced up near where I live. You can drive you car about 2 minutes down the line and find spots where there is almost nothing stopping you getting on the track. A complete waste of money in some circumstances.

And yet it has, apparently, reduced the rate of suicides. The behaviour of people not in their right minds is, surprise, not the same as that of people who are nominally sane.

These fences have probably already paid for themselves in terms of reduced delays, or will in a pretty short time, regardless of the lives saved.